Don't you want one?

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/...ble_defense.php

I... can't bring myself to be excited about it.

If I'm gonna sport a home defense shotgun, I'd want it to be gas operated with a 5-round magazine, and be between 16 and 12 gauge.
Less ammo is dangerous when in a panic situation, and reloading a double barrel during a home invasion is a bad thing.

I would much rather have a pistol. .40 cal or better and 10 rounds in the magazine. Sure I won't splatter my target all over the wall, but with 10 rounds, and a easy way to reload... I don't need to.

Tactical sights. Who on earth needs tactical sights on a SHOTGUN??

What I would look for in a home security weapon -
High Ammo Capacity
Reliable
Easy Safety
Easy to Store

What I dont really need in a home security weapon -
A Reflex Scope...

As a home personal defense weapon..... a solid MEH.... do not want. The point of an old fashioned doubled gun is cheap simple and reliable. That gun may be reliable, but cheap and simple its not. For a home defense shotgun I would much more prefer a simple 870 cut down. A red dot sight for a shotgun WTF?? its a freaking shotgun, in gaming terms think "Area of Effect" .

It is a very nice gun, don't get me wrong. But as an "emergency grab whats close and squeeze the trigger while pointing in the general direction of bad person" it falls short.

Um, have you ever patterned a shotgun at 15 feet? Unlike what various games claim the shotgun is going to make a less than 2 inch sized hole in whatever you aimed it at. If you'd miss them with a pistol you'd miss them with a shotgun.

The really simple math for shotgun spread, unless you've done something ridiculous to the weapon, is vaguely around an inch of spread per yard of travel. The point isn't that you can't miss... it's that you're hitting someone with a whole lot of pellets, which individually aren't that powerful but they've got a noticeably higher chance (at a dozen or so pellets of 00 buck in a 2.75" shell) of passing through something important inside the target.

I'm amused at their marketing effort, though

Pellet spread varies wildly by the gun and the ammo used. I have one that will keep all the pellets from federal LE low recoil on a man sized target at 35 yards and the same shotgun has fliers from Fiocci LE ammo at 20 yards.

And yeah, a 00 buckshot is similar to a .32 caliber FMJ bullet. A .32 FMJ is not the most lethal of bullets. However getting shot by 9 .32 bullets in a 4 inch circle centered on your heart or your nose is not conducive to a very good day.

I prefer an over and under shotgun rather than a side by side. I also don't need a lot of ammo with a shotgun. A narrow hallway is more than sufficient to make up for lack of rounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U-qjYiMU6I

i pitty the fool who walks down that corridor

Comparing the Metal Storm System to a shotgun is kind of like comparing a ship-mounted railgun with a juryrigged potato cannon

I pity the fool who has to reload that turret.

lol bloody gold, i was just putting it out there....rofl omg tater cannon ftw

ok this is more in line with the post http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu965sVymMs...feature=related

guy is kinda creepy the way he talks about his toy.....*shivver* eeeh

Yeah, who would want a naval railgun when they could have a potato cannon?

As for shotguns, seems to me you'd want something more like a combat shotgun for home defense. A double barreled gun is kind of scary, but it also kind of makes you look like Elmer Fudd. If you've got something that looks like a SPAS-12, you'll cause people to piss/shit/run away much more reliably, I think

Never before have I seen such a blatant, obvious, ridiculous, example of the "paint it black, call it tactical, double the price" marketing ploy.

I was wondering the same thing.
Quasi-useful if you're running slugs through it, but if you're main use for it is being paranoid and occasionally blowing a hole through family members going to the fridge late at night you probably don't need it.

Or just buy an autoloader and do it properly

Welcome to the world of HIGHSPEEDLOWDRAG OPERATORS.

Welcome to my own personal hell.

For home defense, I would want a shotgun with ten barrels.

Just for the "Don't fuck with me" effect.



-karma

I second that

I see that in my original post I failed to convey the intended irony.

As a home defense gun, it's crap. The Remington 1100 autoloader, 870 pump, or the Mossberg 500 are all superior for their larger ammo capacity. I posted this just because I thought it had a real sprawl ganger, future dystopia feel to it.

As for red dots on shotguns, yes, they're useful. It is possible to miss with a shotgun in combat, especially at ranges of twenty feet or less. The red dot lets you know where the center of the pattern is going to be. I, though, prefer light/laser combos. You can shoot the gun from the hip while using the laser, and you only need to flip one switch, not two, to get the electronics going. Besides that, the light/laser unit is usually hundreds cheaper than a tactical light and a red dot sight.

As for the debate about the effectiveness of 12 gauges - are you kidding me? Remington Express is nine .33 caliber spheres going downrange at 1325 ft per second.

Yeah, I dunno much about guns, but when they test them on Mythbusters, they test a bunch of pistols that don't do jack, and then a shotgun totally annihilates whatever they were shooting at.

It was the shooting a lock to open a door test...

Why use a double barreled shotgun when you can use one of these:

http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=578

or use an AR-15 homie style:

http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=20836

or homie shoot your AK:

http://www.motivatedphotos.com/?id=18048

Unless you are defending your home against the government or a dedicated assailant, a pump action is probably the best choice. It is a very recognizable sound, most thieves etc. have better things to do than keep coming when they hear it. Even if a burglar is stupid enough to keep coming for you and somehow kills you, after people start firing off shotguns you really can't stick around to loot the place. Now if you have some perverse need to kill people who invade your home and chasing them off isn't enough sure use a shotgun that gets ready in a quieter fashion.

8 would be enough for me, as long as it had a tear-gas launcher in the middle of the ring of barrels:

http://tml.travellercentral.com/hillberg/index.html

Cyberpunk 2020 had a quad barrel shotgun. I think it was called the King Buck. Its damage code was something along the lines of "omgwtf" when all four barrels were fired.

Yeah, wasnt that the prefered weapon of the Arasaka security squads or something? The Famars Rombo is a real life one of those, though smaller gauge and break-action.

for straight-up gunporn, shadowrun falls a bit short. CP2020, and especially games like Twilight 2000, Milleniums End, and (oh god) Phoenix Command all kick its ass (in ascending order of accuracy, detail, and complexity of rules). on the other hand, shadowrun plays very quickly and is well balanced for fast action where your protagonists dont instantly die when they are shot. not as realistic, but makes for a different kind of play experience.

Meh, nothing quite compares to Traveller's Fusion Gun (Man Portabale). The FGMP and PGMP (Plasma Gun, Man Portable) are the only two weapons in the game that "just kill people." One shot from the FGMP will have a 50-50 chance of killing a guy who has maximized health with the most advanced armor. And it fires 3 shots at full auto. The game directs you to spend any left over damage from target obliteration on anything directly behind it (and keep going until you run out of damage). Then makes the note that "all guns should do this, but the FGMP and PGMP are the only weapons worth calculating the effect for." There's also a side bar about how the PGMP and FGMP are weapons of such unbelievable destructive potential that they are never deployed without due care and forethought--except by player characters.

it should also be noted that every shot gives everyone in the area about 420 radiation damage (1000 kills you outright).

So wait, every single shot gives 420 radiation.
1000 radiation kill everyone close enough.
The Gun does not fire Single Shot but Burst.
3 Single Shots following each other closely.
3x420=1260 Radiation Damage right?
So everybody close to such a weapon dies?
No matter if shooting, being shot at, or hit?
Maybe i should investigate such a game ^^

well, its designed to be fired by Solomani Imperial Marines or whatever they were, in their vaccuum and radiation proof power-armor. imagine if you took a vehicular military powered laser in shadowrun and put it on a suit of military power armor with every extra you can buy for it, and then fuel everything with micro fusion reactors and scale up the power by a factor of about x100.

traveller had some good stuff, but it wasnt all that realistic from a gun-bunny point of view. i might be mis-remembering this, but i thought there was something about full-auto gauss-rifles being ideal for zero-gee operations because they were immune to recoil, since they launced their projectiles with magnetics rather than explosive cartridges. whoever came up with that just wasnt paying any attention to Mr. Newton.

also, it went through some pretty wild technology swings between different eras. i forget which edition changed everything to COLD FUSION when that became the popular thing in the 80s... either "Mega" or "The New Era". pretty rampant sillyness.

Stupid, but cool. Sums up CP2020 in three words.

SR4 needs stats for the Hillberg weapons. Nothin would say "Barrens" like a four barreled shotgun.





Comments?

2 round ammo capacity is insufficient against the living. It is best reserved for use during zombie invasion of S-Mart.

Sold! I'm going to get me a copy of Pheonix Command: http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Command-Barr...7701&sr=1-1

It's 420 rads for the burst. Each shot does 2d6 * 20 rads (140 average), and there are 3 shots to a burst. The damage code is 16d6 per shot. Against a guy who has 45 HP max and 18 armor, max (armor subtracts from damage directly).

Ouch O.o
That's like using a GreatDragon ATGM against an unarmored Elf x.x

Honestly, I think CP2020 is where Shadowrun got its original idea to fill up books with 75% "nyah nyah, can't have it" choices. CP2020 was full of full borgs who were like gods, and cyborg weapons that could only be used by full borgs without injury. Not to mention power armor suits and quasi-adamantium skeletons... Hell, even your common flying cars were completely out of a player's reach. Cell phone plans could sometimes break the bank. It was a real gutter dystopia world. Except, once in a while a player would roll really well (yes, you rolled your stats and background) and get access to all that shit, and things would really fall apart.

Cell phones being exotic and hard to get are awesome, because it still reflects the 80s.

One thing I'd actually like to learn more about, but which I really am not sure how to look up, is how the telephone system worked in the 80s, and how phreaking worked at that time.

But I'm finding that getting specific bits of 80s history like that (even specific reviews of 80s terrorist groups, such as the ones portrayed in Sid Meier's Covert Action) is surprisingly difficult.

Phreaking?
That worked by just recording certain sounds that came out of the phone after a specific action.
Then playing back the recorded sounds into the Microphone of the Phone itself.
The computer on the other end heard the command to do X and did X without needing the Money.

It just turns the game into a big joke. When the corporate mover/shaker displays his wealth and power by pulling out a cell phone with caller ID that totally fits in the palm of his hand, the whole table is going to erupt with laughter. I don't care if you're an 80's fanboy, it's still funny. And funny is hard to square with gutter punk dystopia.

Naw, just get a Captain Crunch Whistle.

I certainly appreciate being able to read that, but are there any citations or references? Any further reading for me?

I always felt like my personal style was to combine humor with brutality/disposable 6-pack characters. It's the only way to reconcile the falibility of the individual human with a game.

Why would I want a break-open shotgun for self defense? With a pump action you'd get at least 6 rounds available before you had to reload. The only advantage with a break-open shotgun is that you could use specialty or non-lethal shells that may be too long to feed in a pump or gas-operated gun. The only way I can see this competing with pump-action alternatives is on cost, and a used Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 is pretty damn cheap already.

Also, using a red-dot sight on a shotgun isn't pointless, and certainly isn't unheard of among professionals.

I've seen suggestions from various people who have a clue that an old-style coach gun with exposed hammers isn't bad. The odds are you won't need more than two rounds inside your house and the exposed hammers increase safety of storing it loaded.

I dunno what that link was because it wasn't a mossberg 500 or something similar. Also, if you first shotgun comes with Picatinny rails and a red dot, you have made a mistake somewhere in your life.

Not to mention a Saiga-12 costs about as much and is made with Communist zeal.

A Saiga-12 has way to much spring pressure in the magazine so if you store it loaded the shells get squished and refuse to feed.

The 12K redesign lowered the spring pressure but it just slows down the squishy.

Break actions don't have to put up with that crap.

There's no question that the Double Defense is inferior to pumps in every way. I just posted it because it looks Shadowrunesque. First, the price on the Double Defense is about $470. The Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 both cost less. Second, the Mossberg and Remington pump actions both have at least 3.5 times the ammunition capacity. Third, you can switch out the standard stock on the Mossberg and Remington for a Knoxx stock. So case closed. The only advantage the Double Defense has, and it's a slight one, is that the time between your first and second shots is faster, because you don't have to work a pump. Further evidence that the Double Defense is a few upgrades on an obsolete platform - Bose speakers on a tape deck - is that no police department or military that I know of has fielded the double barreled shotgun in the last fifty years.

And by the way, Saigas are inferior all around. Shotguns are by their nature CQB weapons, and the Saiga is too long for easy handling in CQB environments. Customer support for Saigas in North America is crap. Try getting spare magazines. I dare you. While there is a world of accessories available for Mossbergs and Remingtons, like rails, ammo racks, and replacement stocks, there aren't for the Saiga. And finally, the Saiga gets only, what, 5 rounds? And in a box magazine, which, unlike a tube magazine, can't be easily topped off under fire.

There are 10 round mags available (but pricey), as well as some crazy fans who make drums.