Double Defense, A Real Combat Shotgun Options

[the_real_elwood]

There's no question that the Double Defense is inferior to pumps in every way. I just posted it because it looks Shadowrunesque. First, the price on the Double Defense is about $470. The Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 both cost less. Second, the Mossberg and Remington pump actions both have at least 3.5 times the ammunition capacity. Third, you can switch out the standard stock on the Mossberg and Remington for a Knoxx stock. So case closed. The only advantage the Double Defense has, and it's a slight one, is that the time between your first and second shots is faster, because you don't have to work a pump. Further evidence that the Double Defense is a few upgrades on an obsolete platform - Bose speakers on a tape deck - is that no police department or military that I know of has fielded the double barreled shotgun in the last fifty years.

And by the way, Saigas are inferior all around. Shotguns are by their nature CQB weapons, and the Saiga is too long for easy handling in CQB environments. Customer support for Saigas in North America is crap. Try getting spare magazines. I dare you. While there is a world of accessories available for Mossbergs and Remingtons, like rails, ammo racks, and replacement stocks, there aren't for the Saiga. And finally, the Saiga gets only, what, 5 rounds? And in a box magazine, which, unlike a tube magazine, can't be easily topped off under fire.

Before you say that Saigas are too long for CQB, check out what Tromix (and some other gunsmiths that I can't remember right now) have done with them. You have to register it as a short barreled shotgun, but they'll put on a folding stock and whatever length barrel you want. I've seen some setups that look even more compact than your typical CQB setup pump shotgun. Plus, for the same overall length as a pump shotgun that can carry 5 rds, you can get a Saiga with a 10 round box magazine. I'm not saying Saigas are the be-all, end-all of the shotgun world, but they're not quite as worthless as you make them sound.

[puke]

And by the way, Saigas are inferior all around. Shotguns are by their nature CQB weapons, and the Saiga is too long for easy handling in CQB environments. Customer support for Saigas in North America is crap. Try getting spare magazines. I dare you. While there is a world of accessories available for Mossbergs and Remingtons, like rails, ammo racks, and replacement stocks, there aren't for the Saiga. And finally, the Saiga gets only, what, 5 rounds? And in a box magazine, which, unlike a tube magazine, can't be easily topped off under fire.

it comes down to personal preference, really. tubes can be topped off, but boxes can be replaced faster than an entire tube can be reloaded. and you dont really need brand specific accessories when its built to fit an AK chassis -- you can use whatever aftermarket stuff you want. things like this become possible:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/08...-saiga-shotgun/

i do think a pistol is the best CQB weapon you can have, though.

[nezumi]

I certainly appreciate being able to read that, but are there any citations or references? Any further reading for me?

The Hacker Crackdown, a free e-book by Bruce Sterling. It's early 90's, but the situation was established before (and during) the 80s.

[Zen Shooter01]

Puke:

Yes, box mags can be replaced quicker than an empty tube can be reloaded, fair point. And I didn't realize that any AK accessory could be installed on a Saiga - I may have underestimated them. But I'd still prefer a Remington - pump, or the 1100 autoloader - for ease of use and supply, and so the spring tension doesn't crush my shells.

I'm not crazy about pullpup, unless it ejects down. I want to be able to fire off either shoulder without the brass hitting my teeth.

[kzt]

A Saiga isn't a bullpup. Just an overgrown AK.

There has been suggestions in the gun press that the reason Remington/Mossberg etc have never done a mag fed shotgun was fear of having the ATF declare it a DD.

[Wounded Ronin]

The Hacker Crackdown, a free e-book by Bruce Sterling. It's early 90's, but the situation was established before (and during) the 80s.

Wow, thanks! I'm really excited to read it.

[Generico]

Zen's comment about bullpup refers to the site puke linked to, which has a bullpup kit for the AK series.

Edit: The compatibility with AK accessories is the fun part of a Saiga. Alternate stock, under barrel grenade launcher, laser sight, you name it.