Can Technomancers write malware?, Viruses/worms/trojan horses... oh my... Options

[The Jake]

Hi there

In Unwired, it states TMs cannot create malware (via complex forms).

While I'm sure manually writing code is an anathema to them, they obviously can do it. Why can't a TM manually write their own malware programs?

I've heard the argument that TM skills are seperate to mundane version of the skills, but unless someone can provide a book and page reference (Muspell?) then I'm calling shenanigans.

- J.

[CodeBreaker]

If I remember my forum posts enough Technomancers using software to write programs is an oft argued subject. I think in general people agree that Technomancers can write programs/agents (and thus Malware) with Resonance Software, its just that they do it in a different way than Hackers do fluff-wise.

As far as I am aware RAW is quite vague about it, and honestly I cannot think of any reason why being so intune with the Matrix and the code itself they would not be able to write/form programs. Technomancers not being able to form Viruses via the Deep Resonance has to do with them being so Dissonance-y, but I do not think that the restriction would apply to actually writing the code.

[The Jake]

That was my take.

The sidebar in Unwired seemed clear on using Resonance to create malware was out. But my reading suggested that regular software development was perfectly acceptable.

From a fluff viewpoint, I think they might perceive such software as bordering on Dissonant behaviour but I can think of plenty of practical reasons why a TM shadowrunner would want to create trojan horse software....

Cheers

- J.

[Jaid]

if a TM can use a DDOS attack to further their goals of committing crimes, i can't see how that screams "resonance" either.

so yeah, it's apparently just not an ability they have to create malware CFs, that doesn't mean they can't make (and use) malware programs.

[Meatbag]

I've heard the argument that TM skills are seperate to mundane version of the skills, but unless someone can provide a book and page reference (Muspell?) then I'm calling shenanigans.

Page 233, Corebook, under a big header that says "TECHNOMANCER SKILLS"

Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers
use to handle sprites (see p. 119), technomancers use the
same skills common to hackers—Computer, Cybercombat,
Data Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking, Hardware, and
Soft ware. The way technomancers use these skills, however, is
vastly different from the way non-technomancers use them.

......

This means that the technomancer versions of these skills
are fundamentally different from the standard versions. In game
terms, technomancers may never teach these skills to non-technomancers,
nor are the technomancer skill versions available
as skillsofts. Technomancers may learn the normal versions of
these skills separately (or use normal skillsofts), but they inevitably
find the normal way of doing things to be hopelessly
clumsy and backward.

It's one more shaft to an already BP-stretched lot, but it's RAW. It's also worth noting that this directly contradicts the fluff on page 130 of Unwired, wherein a TM going by "Inbus" talks about intuitively fixing a drone, and only noticing a difference when he realizes his commlink's turned off.

[Mirilion]

It's one more shaft to an already BP-stretched lot, but it's RAW. It's also worth noting that this directly contradicts the fluff on page 130 of Unwired, wherein a TM going by "Inbus" talks about intuitively fixing a drone, and only noticing a difference when he realizes his commlink's turned off.

How does it contradict the fluff, exactly ? The TM used his ability intuitively, and the way in which he personally percieves his abilities is the same as if he was using his commlink.

[Meatbag]

How does it contradict the fluff, exactly ? The TM used his ability intuitively, and the way in which he personally percieves his abilities is the same as if he was using his commlink.

Hmm, seems I slightly misremembered it - I thought he was doing something more complex than diagnostics, which you can probably do with Computer 0. Still, if he can mistakenly use one for the other, they don't sound that "fundamentally different".

[The Jake]

Page 233, Corebook, under a big header that says "TECHNOMANCER SKILLS"



......



It's one more shaft to an already BP-stretched lot, but it's RAW. It's also worth noting that this directly contradicts the fluff on page 130 of Unwired, wherein a TM going by "Inbus" talks about intuitively fixing a drone, and only noticing a difference when he realizes his commlink's turned off.

Ouch. Thanks for the quote.

So then it would seem that for a TM to even have a crack at writing software he'd have to learn the Software skill twice. Is that correct? That seems like a rather excessive burden as you said.

I can't possibly see how that is even remotely balanced. To say nothing of the fact that if you allow all the optional TM rules they just become totally OP in the Matrix - above and beyond how they are from the get go!

- J.

[Meatbag]

Ouch. Thanks for the quote.

So then it would seem that for a TM to even have a crack at writing software he'd have to learn the Software skill twice. Is that correct? That seems like a rather excessive burden as you said.

That's the idea. By RAW, they're entirely different skills that just happen to have the sane names and most of the same purposes. I'm pretty sure TMs can code ordinary (non-malware) software with their skills, though this has been a subject for debate.

But they'd have to put it on a commlink, at which point they'd need mundane skills to USE it.

I suggest getting the Biowire echo (en route to the meatspace IP booster anyway) and slotting in a mundane Software 6 activesoft - now you should be able to code malware.

[The Jake]

Not all TMs want to pick Bioware and Acceleration for their next 3 or so Echoes.

This is what I don't like. If you want to build a vaguely passable/all round TM, you almost require it.

- J.

[Heath Robinson]

But they'd have to put it on a commlink, at which point they'd need mundane skills to USE it.

Eh, wot?

Commlinks run a remote shell by default. People can remotely gain access to your Commlink and access data on it, so why can't a Technomancer?

[Malachi]

So then it would seem that for a TM to even have a crack at writing software he'd have to learn the Software skill twice. Is that correct? That seems like a rather excessive burden as you said.

Well, here's where the debate comes in. I don't see it that way. In my mind, although TM skills are entirely different from the non-TM versions, the result of those skills is still the same. When a TM using Hacking, they are doing things in a completely different way than a standard Hacker would go about Hacking. In the end, though, the result is the same: the TM gains access to the system. I perceive Software as working the same way. When the TM writes code, if a standard programmer were to look at it the code would look utterly crazy. A regular programmer might assume that the couldn't should even work at all and yet it does, because it is interacting with the mysterious powers of Resonance instead of standard computer logic. In the end, however, the result is the same: a functioning program. Otherwise the only thing that a TM would use Software for is Threading.

Now, fluff-wise, a TM probably wouldn't want to write "regular" programs because they find them terribly inefficient. Why use some clunky, limiting program when you can just use a Threaded Complex Form? Why spend months writing an Agent when you can just compile a Sprite? Despite this, I still think a TM can do it, if they try. I thought some SR4 fluff was even hinting that Microdeck is using TM's to write their new line of software products.

[Dizzy]

You might look into Dissonance technomancers? They're infected with all kinds of bad diseases like the black shakes and they get their own evil sprite powers and stuff. They're like the sith TM to the Jedi TM!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Diz

[Mirilion]

Hmm, seems I slightly misremembered it - I thought he was doing something more complex than diagnostics, which you can probably do with Computer 0. Still, if he can mistakenly use one for the other, they don't sound that "fundamentally different".

They are fundamentally different. It's just that the TM mentioned in the piece of fluff percieves his abilities as "normal" programming. He doesn't pray to the matrix spirits, he doesn't meditate with the resonance, he doesn't pat and talk to the device - he just opens an AR window and starts meddling with the node. I would assume that most TM's who were just normal people would see their power this way.

[TBRMInsanity]

Well, here's where the debate comes in. I don't see it that way. In my mind, although TM skills are entirely different from the non-TM versions, the result of those skills is still the same. When a TM using Hacking, they are doing things in a completely different way than a standard Hacker would go about Hacking. In the end, though, the result is the same: the TM gains access to the system. I perceive Software as working the same way. When the TM writes code, if a standard programmer were to look at it the code would look utterly crazy. A regular programmer might assume that the couldn't should even work at all and yet it does, because it is interacting with the mysterious powers of Resonance instead of standard computer logic. In the end, however, the result is the same: a functioning program. Otherwise the only thing that a TM would use Software for is Threading.

Now, fluff-wise, a TM probably wouldn't want to write "regular" programs because they find them terribly inefficient. Why use some clunky, limiting program when you can just use a Threaded Complex Form? Why spend months writing an Agent when you can just compile a Sprite? Despite this, I still think a TM can do it, if they try. I thought some SR4 fluff was even hinting that Microdeck is using TM's to write their new line of software products.

I agree totally. If a TM does create malware it would be a complex form malware that does the same thing as standard malware only from the TM POV. What is malware but a program that is used to adversly effect a system. Isn't there complex forms that do that already?

[toolbox]

This came up in the last thread on the subject too, but I'll repost it here:

In game terms, technomancers may never teach these skills to non-technomancers,
nor are the technomancer skill versions available as skillsofts.

That's the only mechanical restriction on the TM versions of computer skills. Unless someone can provide a page reference backing up the idea that the TM version of the Software skill can't produce functional programs through actual coding procedures, I call shenanigans.

[Wiseman]

That's the only mechanical restriction on the TM versions of computer skills. Unless someone can provide a page reference backing up the idea that the TM version of the Software skill can't produce functional programs through actual coding procedures, I call shenanigans

I'm in that boat...rowing

I mean technomancers functionally don't do anything anyone with the right hardware, software, and skillwires couldn't do (or just having a mook agent, so hardware and software). Technomancers pay more (the quality, the resonance, the CF's as knowledge skills, etc) to have a few other nifty (mostly circumstantial) abilities on top of what others can do with just some cred.

They don't pay more BP to do less. A Techno can do everything a hacker can (immediately/eventually) but the inverse isn't also true. The rule represents (to me) that techno's can't specifically teach or create skillsofts of their special skills as a means to differentiate the how of a biological node from more mundane resources that hacker skills rely on.

Otherwise, they mechanically work just like the normal skills. Techno's can still rig a commlink to override RAS or permanently spoof a team-mates access ID with the hardware skill, they just couldn't explain how they knew how to do what and when to non-technomancers. They don't use Hardware as brain surgery...

Programming malware and agents, breaking copy protection, setting up an encrypt program to run on a team member's 'link (not threading it), commanding an agent in their comm with a browse program to do a Data Search, they can do all these things because they have the skill the tests (if any) requires they use.

If the interpertation was they were different in function, they would list them twice, once for Hackers and once for TM's with separate descriptions. Since they do exactly the same things, and to save space, they then added a paragraph to distinguish that though mechanically they are the same, they're special and different from more conventional learning.

I'll never understand why that paragraph means TM's can't do the most basic things each skill represents knowledge of (strange mysterious knowledge granted, but the same know how as everyone else).

[Mirilion]

I'm in that boat...rowing

I mean technomancers functionally don't do anything anyone with the right hardware, software, and skillwires couldn't do (or just having a mook agent, so hardware and software). Technomancers pay more (the quality, the resonance, the CF's as knowledge skills, etc) to have a few other nifty (mostly circumstantial) abilities on top of what others can do with just some cred.

They don't pay more BP to do less. A Techno can do everything a hacker can (immediately/eventually) but the inverse isn't also true. The rule represents (to me) that techno's can't specifically teach or create skillsofts of their special skills as a means to differentiate the how of a biological node from more mundane resources that hacker skills rely on.

Otherwise, they mechanically work just like the normal skills. Techno's can still rig a commlink to override RAS or permanently spoof a team-mates access ID with the hardware skill, they just couldn't explain how they knew how to do what and when to non-technomancers. They don't use Hardware as brain surgery...

Programming malware and agents, breaking copy protection, setting up an encrypt program to run on a team member's 'link (not threading it), commanding an agent in their comm with a browse program to do a Data Search, they can do all these things because they have the skill the tests (if any) requires they use.

If the interpertation was they were different in function, they would list them twice, once for Hackers and once for TM's with separate descriptions. Since they do exactly the same things, and to save space, they then added a paragraph to distinguish that though mechanically they are the same, they're special and different from more conventional learning.

I'll never understand why that paragraph means TM's can't do the most basic things each skill represents knowledge of (strange mysterious knowledge granted, but the same know how as everyone else).

*hands wiseman an internets* I salute you, sir. You are a man, and your words are wise.

[cREbralFIX]

Ugh. That's all silly..too many damned rules.

Technomancy is Magic. Period, end of story. It doesn't really have to make any more sense that the magic wielded by a mage.

TM decides he needs a new browse program. His brain looks at several existing binaries that happen to have been written by regular programmers. He considers the options for a moment as he looks at various features, performance and so on. He reaches into the "bit bucket" and pulls out handfuls of bits and bytes, munges them together, adds a splash of color and style...VOILA! New browse program binary. He loads it up and tests it...ooops...bug! Fix, fix, fix...oh wait...here's another problem...don't like that feature either...BAM! Retry...OK, it's good. Back to watching old episodes of "The Simpsons" using this less annoying browser he just made.

Time frame would be subjective. As GM, I'd poke around the TM rules and make the character spend some time on the code. A quickie version wouldn't be as polished, while a binary that the TM spent days completing would be a spiffy product.

What would the code look like if a hacker decompiled it? Ever seen machine generated code? My eyes cross! Though there was this one programmer who tried to cram as much as possible into one screen and used one letter variables, so it was almost as bad.

***

In my view, ANY TM for hire would immediately be in the middle of a bidding war. Software companies would go to extremes to get one on their team. In fact, I see almost no economic reason for a TM to ever have anything less than a High Lifestyle and employment of their choice. Heck...one miracle a week should be sufficient to keep any manager happy (considering how screwed up most companies are). The TM's manager should have a weekly calendar event: "Throw some caffeine and candies into the back room for the coding freak"

[ludomastro]

The TM's manager should have a weekly calendar event: "Throw some caffeine and candies into the back room for the coding freak"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
I came this close >< to spitting my Moutain Dew all over my work computer.

[toolbox]

Ugh. That's all silly..too many damned rules.

Technomancy is Magic. Period, end of story. It doesn't really have to make any more sense that the magic wielded by a mage.

TM decides he needs a new browse program. His brain looks at several existing binaries that happen to have been written by regular programmers. He considers the options for a moment as he looks at various features, performance and so on. He reaches into the "bit bucket" and pulls out handfuls of bits and bytes, munges them together, adds a splash of color and style...VOILA! New browse program binary. He loads it up and tests it...ooops...bug! Fix, fix, fix...oh wait...here's another problem...don't like that feature either...BAM! Retry...OK, it's good. Back to watching old episodes of "The Simpsons" using this less annoying browser he just made.

Time frame would be subjective. As GM, I'd poke around the TM rules and make the character spend some time on the code. A quickie version wouldn't be as polished, while a binary that the TM spent days completing would be a spiffy product.

Your "quickie version" and Simpsons example is what threading is for. Actually coding a lasting piece of software takes just as long for a technomancer as for a hacker. There's no way to "poke around the TM rules" and find a different approach in there without houseruling or handwaving. That's fine if it's what you want to do, but by RAW technomancers can't whip out a miracle per week that results in a fully finished program any more easily than hackers can.

[Wiseman]

Actually coding a lasting piece of software takes just as long for a technomancer as for a hacker.

Agreed. Same rules all around. Threading is totally different and though you might code malware (taking all the normal time with the bug rules and everything else considered), you cannot thread malware as stated in Unwired.

Techno's cannot thread or run real programs on their bio-node, just complex forms. You can code software but not in your brain, you'd need actual hardware to store and run testing with.