NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[CanadianWolverin...]

Hmm let's see here....

CanadianWolverine, you should know by now that I'm not going to bother to give you a cite, especially over something as easy as the spread of gunpowder throughout the Western World, hell I wouldn't even go as far in explaining my point as Whipstitch did.

A citation isn't an explanation, its just a link to a source of the information: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/citation so don't worry about spending the time.

Look, I asked for the cite because it isn't a subject I would say I was proficient at and desired some reading material. From just reading something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder I see adoption of gunpowder as something not happening till like 4 centuries after its discovery (9th to the 13th according to the wiki), so I was really hoping that you could help me understand it better with a better link, because right now my own reading strikes me as your assertion doesn't hold water and I don't mind being wrong about that if I can be shown a source on the history for a bit of reading. Color me confused.

As for a citation on the number of Awakened NAN, the closest I'm going to come is point you to the minor fact that the only years we have numbers for; 2050-70 tells us that only 1% of the population is Awakened (And not all of that 1% are full Mages/Adepts as all of the various minor talents count towards the limit as well.) so given the fact that the Mana Levels were lower during the NAN Wars the 1% figure is quite frankly probably overstating the number of Awakened.

Er, thanks for the info but where does this info come from? I'm just a newb, haven't read all the wonderful SR fiction you have, please help?

Yeah, I do happen to agree that magic is an excellent force multiplier, however the problem is that it isn't nearly enough to actually win given the numbers game and full fledged Mages are rare enough that everytime you lose one you've just suffered a grievous blow that can't be replaced. So even if I agreed with your "Magical Brave" theory that the poor white people were unable to get their mojo working properly it still doesn't change things as magic simply isn't a war winner and you most certainly can't control a hostile population that vastly outnumbers you after the war is over.

This is the thing I don't get. Things must be very different where you are because it really doesn't strike me that the population would be hostile, the government sure was but then they had been fucking up for years by that point with all the various disasters between 2009 - 2014 SR ( http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowrun_timeline) and even before that regarding corps. And how can you agree that they have a few magic shamans but ignore that to be a effective shaman we are talking about a significant amount of charisma and willpower then throw in a bunch of social related spells and you should have a recipe for a bunch of people who had a chance to hear a shaman on a soap box or whatever at the very least becoming neutral towards them. Unless of course mundanes are well known for their magical resistance and I am just unaware of their good rolls with a little help from their edge if it was somehow going to affect them negatively. No, I see years of resentment over centralized governments in the east not giving a shit about the west and then watching them go nazi really push the populace towards seeing the NAN as freedom fighters, for their freedom too. And we aren't even talking about "poor white people", the melting pot has pretty much taken care of that silly notion decades ago - we're talking about brown people in their regions who refuse to lie down and die versus a centralized gov who doesn't care, heck seems to encourage, that corps are pillaging their homes. I'm not really sensing where the UCAS is winning the public relations propaganda side of things to have everybody up in arms at the NAN.

Hell, UCAS is lucky it was able to keep Seatle, IMHO. This fictional universe makes the IRL Battle Of Seattle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministeri...rotest_activity ) look like a cake walk.

[Ravor]

CanadianWolverine aye, perhaps I was alittle harsher then I should have been but I get REALLY tired of people asking for "cites", especially when something as trashy and unrealible as wiki is mentioned, call it a character flaw of mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Perhaps a better way to restate my gunpowder point would be to say that once it was shown to be an effective and realible weapon it was very quickly adapted, just as I believe "magic" would be.

You don't have to look very deep at the fiction for the 1% number, just crack open any of the various sourcebooks dealing with magic and they seem to always place the number of Awakened at 1% of the population (I think one of the older ones said 5% but could be misremembering.). However, an interesting tidbit is that the 1% is stated to include everyone who is Awakened so the actual number of Mages/Adepts have actually decreased over time as more "minor talents" have been introduced into the ruleset.


Look, I'm not sure what your situation is or what people's attitudes are in your part of the world, but historically the population at large doesn't tend to react well to a tiny minority of people marching in and telling them that they have to give up their land and agree to be treated as second class citizens if they couldn't prove a claim to a tribe in order to right some injustice that happened long before they were even born, and even in the "nicest" possible version of the NAN as protrayed in this thread that is exactly what happened. Don't you remember the fluff talking about streams of displaced refugees fleeing into the UCAS from the NAN Terrorities? Or the fluff talking about the indians rounding up anglos and forcing them into rezes at gunpoint? Not to mention the fact that the American regions that the NAN won happen to be some of the stauntest "pro-American" parts of the country? And no, I don't mean "pro-government" by that statement.

As for the bit about social Shamans, sure, I'm sure that some people would convert to "the cause", however, magical mindfucks are not and have never been effective long term solutions, especialy when you are ordering people to give up their rights and land, not to mention that the new masters have already shown that they are willing to deploy WMDs. And the NAN has never been about being "a melting pot", if that were the case then there wouldn't be much if any difference between the UCAS and the NAN.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ascalaphus you can believe that until your blue in the face however it's directly contradicted by street magic third edition. The two primary traditions Hermetic and Shamanic magic get more press because they are the simplist and widest nets possible. Shamanism as practiced by the seminole indians is going to be extremely different from Shamism practiced by the Omaha or the Blackfoot. Yet their both shamans yet they can both fit under a similar system. The gaps are even wider if you compare Sioux shamans to the "shaman" or "witch doctor" of the rain forest. Yet the game groups them up the same, your attempting to provide a universe justification that A) Contradicted B) A mechanical issue.

[Ascalaphus]

What exactly? I as making three different points;
* Persecuted people sink more karma into combat magic
* Before magic returns, the to-be first hermetic mages weren't doing it for power, just enlightenment -> they're not very far in the race to develop combat magic
* Sci-fi fluff doesn't translate into a Tradition immediately; any new magical style will take years of practice to learn it's version of Arcana, Spellcasting and develop spells in it. It takes more than belief in the Force to use it. And before magic returns, you can't really practice any of it.

however it's directly contradicted by street magic third edition.

Is there even such a book?

The two primary traditions Hermetic and Shamanic magic get more press because they are the simplist and widest nets possible.

Hermetic magic is the most likely tradition for any western army to have access to. I don't think Black Magic or Chaos Magic has more than a handful of adherents, and I definitely don't think they'll be taken seriously by the military. Either way, Hermetic magic is still treated as being the most common magical style in the west.

I'm talking about what kind of wizards these would be.
* They wouldn't start with any combat spells
* The people who actually had any magical skills such as Spellcasting were people with a gentle harmless hobby

It takes more than being in the 1% to be a good wizard; learning Arcana, Spellcasting etc. Without a teacher and tried and tested method of magic, you won't be doing anything big soon.

[KCKitsune]

Ascalaphus, OK lets assume that the "Magic Brave" theory was alive and kicking during Howling Coyote's time. 1 out every 100 people is going to stretch that poor slot 5 billion ways to Sunday. This "Magic Brave" is going to be a Healer, Scout, and Heavy Weapon. He's then going to be summoning Spirits, and let's face it, that is going to be pretty draining to the "Magic Brave" in question.

Also being a "Magic Brave" does not make you invincible... actually when the US soldiers finally understand that the wack job waving his hand and shooting lightning or their buddies just drop dead, he's going to become a bullet/grenade/rocket magnet.

Next, these Magic Braves are NOT growing in number during this time. Every "Brave" is out in the field working and not at home training a new "Brave".

Finally... didn't a good many of the participants of the Great Ghost Dance DIE afterwards?

[Ascalaphus]

Ascalaphus, OK lets assume that the "Magic Brave" theory was alive and kicking during Howling Coyote's time. 1 out every 100 people is going to stretch that poor slot 5 billion ways to Sunday. This "Magic Brave" is going to be a Healer, Scout, and Heavy Weapon. He's then going to be summoning Spirits, and let's face it, that is going to be pretty draining to the "Magic Brave" in question.

I personally like Force 3 spirits. Worst case 6 drain, and still stun for an average (M3) shaman. They get an optional power, and with the things they already have just for being a spirit, they can terrorize just fine.

Also being a "Magic Brave" does not make you invincible... actually when the US soldiers finally understand that the wack job waving his hand and shooting lightning or their buddies just drop dead, he's going to become a bullet/grenade/rocket magnet.

You don't have to wave hands, and a manaball is close to invisible. You can just take some binoculars and hide in a bush overlooking a military base or patrol route.

When soldiers start getting killed by things they can't see, can't defend against, they'll certainly panic. Militaries place a lot of emphasis on developing tactics to handle situations; they don't like the unknowable.

Next, these Magic Braves are NOT growing in number during this time. Every "Brave" is out in the field working and not at home training a new "Brave".

Finally... didn't a good many of the participants of the Great Ghost Dance DIE afterwards?

True, there won't be many of them. Some will get trained in the field, however, not unlike PCs earning karma for runs.
But it only takes a dozen terrorists to make the US crap their pants, and that's even without magic...




I think the fundamental issue is this: SR1-4 are all full of weird, silly things. However, if you like those things, it's almost always possible to come up with an explanation why it could, would happen.

As a history student, I don't even find much of SR to be that implausible; other periods in history are just as weird to us in the present. The social developments are all possible - not the only way things could go, but they could happen.

You have to accept basic assumptions such as magic, of course. I find the technological side stranger; the emphasis on VR is odd. So is the relative unimportance of biometrics, data mining and essentially the corporate surveillance state. Allowing so many SINless is odd for an oppressive regime; you'd want to keep track of everyone.
However, a 1984 total-surveillance setting would probably not be any fun (no way you're getting away with shadowrunning), so they "ignored" it. By SR4, sticking your head in the sand is just too unbelievable, though.

[Saint Sithney]

Perhaps a better way to restate my gunpowder point would be to say that once it was shown to be an effective and realible weapon it was very quickly adapted, just as I believe "magic" would be.

Yeah, but magic isn't a rifle. You can't just pick it up and use it after watching it done a few times. Magic is a jet fighter or a Galleon. Its use must be demonstrated and taught. You yourself have asserted that some metaplanar entity must have given DHC the knowledge needed to accomplish the GGD.

Look, I'm not sure what your situation is or what people's attitudes are in your part of the world, but historically the population at large doesn't tend to react well to a tiny minority of people marching in and telling them that they have to give up their land and agree to be treated as second class citizens if they couldn't prove a claim to a tribe in order to right some injustice that happened long before they were even born, and even in the "nicest" possible version of the NAN as protrayed in this thread that is exactly what happened. Don't you remember the fluff talking about streams of displaced refugees fleeing into the UCAS from the NAN Terrorities? Or the fluff talking about the indians rounding up anglos and forcing them into rezes at gunpoint? Not to mention the fact that the American regions that the NAN won happen to be some of the stauntest "pro-American" parts of the country? And no, I don't mean "pro-government" by that statement.

I originally envisioned the handover as a "scorched earth" situation with shades of guerrilla resistance, but then I remembered that the NAN was formed by, basically, holocaust survivors with the ability to end all human life in a supervolcanic ash cloud. No one but a complete psychopath would think that their flag or house was more important than not triggering the end of the world. Because there's no hope of victory here. Best case scenario is a suicide course.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Ascalaphus, OK lets assume that the "Magic Brave" theory was alive and kicking during Howling Coyote's time. 1 out every 100 people is going to stretch that poor slot 5 billion ways to Sunday. This "Magic Brave" is going to be a Healer, Scout, and Heavy Weapon. He's then going to be summoning Spirits, and let's face it, that is going to be pretty draining to the "Magic Brave" in question.

Also being a "Magic Brave" does not make you invincible... actually when the US soldiers finally understand that the wack job waving his hand and shooting lightning or their buddies just drop dead, he's going to become a bullet/grenade/rocket magnet.

Next, these Magic Braves are NOT growing in number during this time. Every "Brave" is out in the field working and not at home training a new "Brave".

Finally... didn't a good many of the participants of the Great Ghost Dance DIE afterwards?

Er, why do the NAN magicians have to make moves that make them bullet/grenade/rocket magnets? Just giving a bunch of NAN soldiers who are already intimate with the local areas knooks and crannies the low down on how many UCAS they are facing and their last known positions and trajectory from Astral could be enough to have those NAN soldiers do some serious damage in an ambush or fade away into the landscape ... the NAN shaman doesn't even have to leave home to do it, he could relay the info from manifestation, right? Healer can be done away from the front lines as well. Heavy weapon can be done by proxy with a binded spirit while monitoring its progress from astral after resting off the effects of all that headache at home with the help of another NAN shaman even, right?

So I agree, the loss of a NAN shaman would be painful for their forces, so why wouldn't they act accordingly? Why even give the UCAS the advantage of shooting at anything?

This last point of magic I am not totally clear on but can a shaman/mage cast a supportive spell on his ally headed to the front lines and sustain it from out of sight? Invisible or magic armored NAN soldiers anyone?

But hey, UCAS picked up a few mages somehow too because somehow these damn braves are freaking guerrillas in the mist makes them realize magic is effective instead of thinking their soldiers have a nut loose (maybe they do after a well placed spell) and aren't following orders because of ghost stories, I wonder how the newbie UCAS mage would fare against the guerilla warfare NAN shaman(s) in astral combat? Do initiated shamans do well against non-initiated mages?

[LurkerOutThere]

I originally envisioned the handover as a "scorched earth" situation with shades of guerrilla resistance, but then i remembered that the NAN was formed by, basically, holocaust survivors with the ability to end all human live in a supervolcanic ash cloud. No one but a complete psychopath would think that their flag or house was more important than not triggering the end of the world. Because there's no hope of victory here. Best case scenario is a suicide course.

Likening the NAN to holocaust survivors is frankly insulting to those who did survive the holocaust as the Saim were essentially Nazi's with feathers given magic by a creature bent on ending the world so they could better hasten their return.

I stand by my statement that magic for all it's use as a crutch by the systemn doesn't change some very basic things about the human condition. One needs only to look at south african apartheid or Afghanistan (pick a conflict any conflict) or any of a hundred other situations throughout history where people with no other choice have fought because basically because the only alternative their enemy gave them was displacement and death. In other words no one gives a damn that the SAIM might end the world, they've basically been trying to do nothing but that since lone eagle. Why you would think people like that would stop where they have is silly.

In short it's game theory, when faced with two staggeringly bad outcomes people will almost always chose the one that has the greatest chance of perserving their way of life.

[kanislatrans]

"The whole world is coming,
A nation is coming, a nation is coming,
The eagle has brought the message to the tribe.
The Father says so, the Father says so.
Over the whole earth they are coming,
The buffalo are coming, the buffalo are coming,
The crow has brought the message to the tribe,
The Father says so, the Father says so." -The Buffalo are coming- a Ghost dance song


In the mid 1800's all it took to force the hand of the U.S. Gov was any chance or hope of a Native "revitalization". The response, which is very similar to the response in the fictional shadowrun universe. leads up the the massacre at Wounded Knee. The US gov., and I would assume ,the UCAS have no reason to change a policy that has been in effect practically since the countries inception.

Guided by the totems, Native magic practitioners would, IMHO,have more than a leg up on their more western counterparts. Also, many Wiccan and Pagan traditions would support the native effort, just as in RL Most Pagans relate to and assist native concerns today...

That said, as a 1/32 Seneca, I like the NAN stuff even if it is a little hooky sometimes...and I would look forward to be dancing at the GGD.

Walk in Beauty.
Kanis

edited for punktuation

[Ravor]

Hmm, just a few quick points before I head into town to flirt with a pretty young lady...


Saint Sithney, true, magic does have to be trained, but that holds true for both sides and NAN Shaman Rituals are no more valid than any other kind of ritual and everyone's magic started working at the same time. And yeah, it is canon that the Great Ghost Dance was given to the NAN by a Horror.

As for the bit about the NAN being "Holocaust Survivors" I think LurkerOutThere summed it up best, if we are going to compare the NAN Wars to anything in WWII than the Indians are the Japanese invading China at best, the comparison to Nazis with feathers isn't a bad fit either.


CanadianWolverine because you can't have it both ways, if you are going to try to claim that the NAN had a leg up in the realm of magic because of their "ancient rites" than they have to play by the rules of said rites and that means they stand out. Besides, even with the magical advancements since the NAN Wars 2070s style magic is still fragging hard to hide from mundanes so I guess its really a moot point.

Also I don't think anyone has said that the NAN's use of magic is the reason America would have magical support of their own, it's because everyone's magic started working at the same time, "ancient rites" are bullshit and don't matter in the grand scheme of things, or do you honestly think that Earthdawn's magic worked anything like NAN's Shamanism does? Hell, even if we gowith the idea that the Shamans just sustained supporting spells and used astral recon to relay information then we still don't have a war winner, "Magical Armor" and even Invisible Troops although effective really isn't as impressive as industital military might that anyone can use, not just 1% at best.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is there even such a book?

Called "Magic in the Shadows" I do believe and it was in 3rd Edition

Keep the Faith

[CanadianWolverin...]

CanadianWolverine because you can't have it both ways, if you are going to try to claim that the NAN had a leg up in the realm of magic because of their "ancient rites" than they have to play by the rules of said rites and that means they stand out. Besides, even with the magical advancements since the NAN Wars 2070s style magic is still fragging hard to hide from mundanes so I guess its really a moot point.

Also I don't think anyone has said that the NAN's use of magic is the reason America would have magical support of their own, it's because everyone's magic started working at the same time, "ancient rites" are bullshit and don't matter in the grand scheme of things, or do you honestly think that Earthdawn's magic worked anything like NAN's Shamanism does? Hell, even if we gowith the idea that the Shamans just sustained supporting spells and used astral recon to relay information then we still don't have a war winner, "Magical Armor" and even Invisible Troops although effective really isn't as impressive as industital military might that anyone can use, not just 1% at best.

Having it both ways? I must be missing some vital piece of information, something I would hope would have been in my 4/4A book, but if you have something else from... hmm, lets see what this index says... Street Magic that I am not even aware of. So if you say you can't perform this or that rite from inside a lodge hidden away somewhere, I'm just going to have to take that at face value. My impression is that Magic can in fact be a war winner or dragons and Aztlan wouldn't be the powerhouses they are made out to be but if I am wrong, no worries, its just fiction afterall.

I just take what I read in the 4/4A, read the stuff on magic and then let my imagination run with it. All I have is opinion and I think I am pretty clear on which side of this I fall on seeing as the whole NAN fluff was actually one of the main draws for me to the fiction. I don't mind admitting to be wrong but I am not exactly clear on how we can't both have the nazi AmerInds and the ones who saw a path to a leg up for their communities out from under nazi UCAS as well. Nobody really seems to come out smelling like roses in the fiction, IMHO.

Er, to say the least, whenever someone mentions Earthdawn in a post here, I just tend to go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif) I bought a copy of Shadowrun 4/4A because of cool cyberpunkish novels I read once with that label on it, I had no interest (and still don't) in whatever Earthdawn is, so if there is anything I tend to ignore as being canon it is whatever that stuff is ... like, what the hell is Horror and why should I care? *shrug*

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I originally envisioned the handover as a "scorched earth" situation with shades of guerrilla resistance, but then i remembered that the NAN was formed by, basically, holocaust survivors with the ability to end all human live in a supervolcanic ash cloud. No one but a complete psychopath would think that their flag or house was more important than not triggering the end of the world. Because there's no hope of victory here. Best case scenario is a suicide course.

When your only hope is die fighting or die without a fight, well, you might as well die taking the most enemies you can, right? It was basicly the same thing about the Cold War, except that the USA called the NAN's bluff and paid dearly...

[KCKitsune]

When your only hope is die fighting or die without a fight, well, you might as well die taking the most enemies you can, right? It was basicly the same thing about the Cold War, except that the USA called the NAN's bluff and paid dearly...

Nope. It was FASA doing some mighty fine hand waving to have the NAN winning.

The USA didn't call the bluff, otherwise they would have killed every single Native Indian because of the the "nuke" they set off.

[Not of this Worl...]

Nope. It was FASA doing some mighty fine hand waving to have the NAN winning.

The USA didn't call the bluff, otherwise they would have killed every single Native Indian because of the the "nuke" they set off.

Nukes don't work too well against insurgents and guerrilla warfare. Only when you've truly already lost could such a tactic be used, and the NAN decided not to push it that far. Those tactics don't even work in Iraq today and in that case we're dealing with foreign soil rather than native (where there is a LOT more repercussions for even small bombs going off).

Honestly just a couple Shamans with mind control spells against the right military targets would be enough to have our military devestate itself without the need for big showy GGD fireworks. I've always interpreted that the GGD was a show force and that the war which went on for years wasn't won because of an every day GGD. It was won by Fighters like Thunder Tyee using Shamans to conceal them and hit just the right military targets. "The Way to win a war is to destroy your enemies ability to wage war"

[KCKitsune]

Nukes don't work too well against insurgents and guerrilla warfare. Only when you've truly already lost could such a tactic be used, and the NAN decided not to push it that far. Those tactics don't even work in Iraq today and in that case we're dealing with foreign soil rather than native (where there is a LOT more repercussions for even small bombs going off).

Honestly just a couple Shamans with mind control spells against the right military targets would be enough to have our military devestate itself without the need for big showy GGD fireworks. I've always interpreted that the GGD was a show force and that the war which went on for years wasn't won because of an every day GGD. It was won by Fighters like Thunder Tyee using Shamans to conceal them and hit just the right military targets. "The Way to win a war is to destroy your enemies ability to wage war"

The "nuke" was not set off by the US, but by the NAN and the GGD. It was the volcanoes that erupted and killed a whole lot of people.

Also Mind Control spells do not make you kill your friends and buddies. Also, when the Americans learned about magic, then all the rules would have gone out the window. Here is a weapon that is VERY powerful, and the indians had no problems killing innocent people just to get their nation... nope, FASA did a whole lot of hand waving to have the NAN win.

Finally, when the GGD ended most of the Shaman died due to drain.

[Sengir]

the Saim were essentially Nazi's with feathers given magic by a creature bent on ending the world so they could better hasten their return.

The SAIM did not plan to exterminate all "Anglos" (meaning basically all non-natives". The UCAS did plan to exterminate all natives on the other hand, and were only stopped by the GGD...

@Ravor:

Saint Sithney, true, magic does have to be trained, but that holds true for both sides and NAN Shaman Rituals are no more valid than any other kind of ritual and everyone's magic started working at the same time.

...and still the SAIM was apparently better at it, given that they could make volcanoes errupt (remember that they nuked Los Alamos that way long before the GGD), control the weather and everything. Whether you like it or not, the official background is that the SAIM's shamans kicked ass right from the start, while the rest of the world was struggling to catch up.

[pbangarth]

I finally decided to poke my head into this thread, but rather than clawing my way through 450+ posts, I decided on the old tactic of reading back from the last post for a page or two. Forgive me, or at least whack me gently upside the head with a two-by-four, if I repeat something already said in the first 17 pages.

The original writers of SR focused their telling of history on North America for their own reasons. We should understand though, that Shamanism is not limited to North America. The term itself comes from an anthropologist, Mercea Eliade, who studied people in Siberia early last century. It is a worldwide phenomenon, with in some cases a very well codified system of practice in spellcasting, astral projection and summoning. Both the mechanisms, and the belief in them, would provide peoples who practice Shamanism a huge advantage in understanding the new world that would come about as mana became manifest.

So even if I agreed with your "Magical Brave" theory that the poor white people were unable to get their mojo working properly it still doesn't change things as magic simply isn't a war winner and you most certainly can't control a hostile population that vastly outnumbers you after the war is over.

I'd be curious to know how you think the Spanish conquistadors managed to control a hostile population that outnumbered them 10,000+ to 1. Certainly there was an initial period during which subjugated pupulations saw the Spanish as allies in shucking the yolk of empire, but that illusion disappeared quickly. Yet the Spanish and similarly numerically disadvantaged Europeans managed to hold on to entire continents.

You have to accept basic assumptions such as magic, of course. I find the technological side stranger; the emphasis on VR is odd. So is the relative unimportance of biometrics, data mining and essentially the corporate surveillance state. Allowing so many SINless is odd for an oppressive regime; you'd want to keep track of everyone.
However, a 1984 total-surveillance setting would probably not be any fun (no way you're getting away with shadowrunning), so they "ignored" it. By SR4, sticking your head in the sand is just too unbelievable, though.

VR is beginning to penetrate our society today.

It is impossible to watch everybody all the time. It is too expensive to police, collect and control everybody. If you want an example of where it would be really good to be able to do so, yet cannot be done, look at Iraq or Afghanistan today.

the indians had no problems killing innocent people just to get their nation...

This is the way almost all nations have been formed, throughout history.

[Ravor]

CanadianWolverine actually I'd disagree with you about both the dragons and Big A being powerhouses because of their mojo, with the unfortunent exception of Ghostwalker stomping all over Denver dragons who forget that they aren't Godzilla tend to get spanked pretty hard in the Sixth World, a dragon's source of power is its vast alien intellect. Big A is a fragging megacorp and thus is a nation onto itself, their magic although powerful is relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Hell if I remember correctly they are still embroiled in an unwinnable war against some band of rebels or another... however my knowledge of the South American fluff is rather weak at best.

And actually I'm not saying that the NAN couldn't have used Ritual Magic to sling mojo from afar, but I do think you should make sure that you understand the limitations of trying to use ritual magic, I happen to be in the minority of Dumpshockers who view Ritual Magic as even being a viable skill that all mages should have at least a basic understanding of. Although I forget who has it as his sig, it's true that Magic seems alot more powerful than it actually is unless you take the time to really understand the ruleset.

As for there being the "Nazi NAN" and the "Good NAN", I suppose that although it would have been possible for the devs to have gone that route had they so choosen the problem is that the "good NAN" who wanted to be a melting pot and who didn't treat the current majority of inhabitants as second class citizens really wouldn't have changed much if at all culturaly, legality, or even politicaly, there simply aren't enough indians to enact said changes in a free and equal society and if the existance of magic and Mother Gia wasn't enough to win people over in the rest of the world than it wouldn't have been enough in the "Good NAN" either.

And like it or not, Earthdawn has been hammered into Shadowrun so throughly that if someone wants to even pretend to try to understand the story behind the story we need to delve at least alittle into the Fourth World, personally I agree with you on this point, I actually wish that we didn't have to discuss the fact that soul sucking enities who were banished from their home of Earth in the theorical "Zeroth World" gave the Great Ghost Dance Ritual to the NAN in order to create a bridge that would allow them to cross over eariler than they otherwise could, but that is the hand that we were dealt and have to play. Ignore it if you wish but that doesn't change the basic facts on the ground.


*****


Not of this World so tell me, why are you only willing to look at the effects of insurgents and guerrilla warfare when it's in the NAN's favor? Why don't we talk about the effects of insurgents and guerrilla warfare when the NAN tries to control the terrority they somehow managed to win? Nevermind the fact that unlike the example of Iraq the NAN fighters are going to have a hell of a time hiding amongst the general population.


*****


KCKitsune I might actually have to disagree with you on this point, the dirty little secret of The Great Ghost Dance is that was basically nothing more than a massive Blood Magic ritual, so I'd imagine that although some of the Shamans died from the drain most of the cost was bared by the lives of the mundane dancers, a cost that according to the "Shadowtalk" of someone who claims to be there was high enough that the indians were physically unable to continue the ritual any longer than they did.


*****


Sengir sure, I fully agree that the devs decided in some drug induced haze to allow the NAN to win via "power of plot". I'm not saying the the NAN doesn't existance in the offical history, what I'm discussing is whether or not the offical history is even remotely possible given the way we are told that things actually work in the Sixth World.

[Ravor]

pbangarth just off the top of my head I'd say that the introduction of disease and superior technology were huge factors in the ability of Europe to control the New World, factors which the NAN didn't hold.


Also although that portion of history hasn't really held a great interest for me, I seem to recall reading about how the Europeans played various tribes and regions against each other as well, another factor which I'd agrue the NAN didn't have going for them either.

[CanadianWolverin...]

pbangarth just off the top of my head I'd say that the introduction of disease and superior technology were huge factors in the ability of Europe to control the New World, factors which the NAN didn't hold.

I noticed this when I was reading through this link - http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowrun_timeline%29

2009: Lone Eagle incident

Re-Education and Relocation Act (Nepean Act in Canada) round up Native Americans into "reeducation centers".

* Native Americans are spared the worst of VITAS because of this internment, ironically.

2010: VITAS 1

* Virally Induced Toxic Allergy Syndrome (VITAS) kills off a quarter of the world's population.

So, would that count as the introduction of disease?

And as far as tech goes, we are talking about today's generation currently implemented tech vs weapons & magic NAN supporters can get in their communities right? Getting hands on stuff better than hunting gear in Canada you would need to rip off a military or rcmp armory but its a little easier to get your hands on things like assault rifles in the US states, right? Is it hard to equip militias in the states?

So, tech being roughly even except I would suggest the UCAS would have tech superiority in air/ground vehicles and satellites, so would magic and guerrilla warfare strategy be sufficient to counter and over come? Is this the sticking point? Or is it also that there are those convinced a brown person can't hide within the local population or geography/topography?

[Not of this Worl...]

Not of this World so tell me, why are you only willing to look at the effects of insurgents and guerrilla warfare when it's in the NAN's favor? Why don't we talk about the effects of insurgents and guerrilla warfare when the NAN tries to control the terrority they somehow managed to win? Nevermind the fact that unlike the example of Iraq the NAN fighters are going to have a hell of a time hiding amongst the general population.

Because the U.S. wasn't running a guerrilla war and the U.S. military is not setup to run guerrilla wars. We have a lot of ability to counter them, but those abilities assume tactics and abilities which magic blows away.

and you're dead wrong about Natives having a hard time hiding in the general populace. Brown skin isn't exactly a rarity any more, and thanks to intermarriage many natives can pass as Anglo to the untrained eye. But how would you tell a Native American person by looking at them in a crowd?

P.S. - this is going from discussing the "possibility of fiction" into a potentially very racist tangent and I don't want to go there.

[Sengir]

I'm not saying the the NAN doesn't existance in the offical history, what I'm discussing is whether or not the offical history is even remotely possible given the way we are told that things actually work in the Sixth World.

Me too, but my problem with the storyline is the size of the NAN and rather than its existence itself. Why did they have to make it that HUGE and not just one successor state (yeah, I like BT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) among many

The magic is something I still can live with, if the storyline says that the NAN got a running start into the sixth world, why not. I can even see the SAIM winning a war against the US/UCAS, just imagine how the Japanese must have felt when their cities got nuked...and that was something science could explain quite well.

[BlueMax]

Penny Arcade explains it.

Rule 12

BlueMax