NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[JonathanC]

I'm not sure I understand the disbelief here. The U.S. was weakened by disease, disaster, and corporate hegemony. They fell to an enemy armed with what was, at that time, a weapon that they could not counter. If you believe that can't happen, you're the same kind of person scoffing at the plot of The Dark Knight, and frankly, I think you have a bit too much faith in the stability of society. Civilization is fragile; a single hurricane managed to reduce New Orleans to lawless anarchy; and that was just one storm, in just one city. A Jewish man running over a black child in NYC set part of Brooklyn into chaos; a police brutality trial set a good part of Los Angeles on fire for DAYS.

The Ghost Dance caused disasters all over the U.S., simultaneously, during what was, in essence, a civil war. The only thing that surprises me is that Texas didn't make like California and go independent.

As for the population numbers, I think you're ignoring that SR departed from our timeline somewhere around the 90's, as the Japanese bubble economy never burst. Also, for some reason, there was a lot more interest in Native American rights than there was in our timeline; it seems likely that they folded in some like-minded activists, probably married them into the tribes, and grew from there. For the more racist NANs, it's not that hard to believe they could have survived. The whole world in SR was depopulated by disease, and they managed; most industrial tasks are automated, and if you live in the midwest with nothing better to do you're going to repopulate fairly quickly.

[pbangarth]

pbangarth just off the top of my head I'd say that the introduction of disease and superior technology were huge factors in the ability of Europe to control the New World, factors which the NAN didn't hold.
Also although that portion of history hasn't really held a great interest for me, I seem to recall reading about how the Europeans played various tribes and regions against each other as well, another factor which I'd agrue the NAN didn't have going for them either.

The conquest of the Americas can't be boiled down to a few factors without a lot of glossing over of details and complexities, however there were a few very important factors. Disease was the number one ally for the Europeans. Without it, I would argue they would have failed to conquer the entire new world, and possibly would have been driven and held back from some of the larger political entities entirely. Disease, however, took a long time to have a large effect. Several plagues occurred, but over decades.

Their second most valuable asset, as you and I both have said, was to use native allies to increase their numbers. Those allies were often very motivated to use the Spanish to beat the guys over the next hill, or the imperialists who had conquered them earlier. These allies eventually caught on to their mistake.

European technology was superior, but not superior enough to overcome the numbers, except in a few instances where surprise and cunning allowed them to maximize that superiority. If you have 1000 bullets against 10,000 enemies who all believe that to die in battle is the greatest glory, you are shit out of luck. The technological advantage also was potentially fleeting. Cortez made it to Tenochtitlan, and then had to retreat to deal with Spanish troops sent to arrest him. By the time he had returned, the Aztecs had their own European style ships on the lakes around their capital. The metalwork was more difficult to copy. Pizzaro massacred thousands of Inca warriors and captured Atahualpa the emperor through a cunning trap that enclosed them all inside a plaza, unarmed, facing cannons. They never fell for that one again.

The problem for a small number of people to dominate a large number is primarily logistical. The Spanish took nearly two hundred years to conquer the last of the Maya, because those people were spread out in individual kingdoms across some very nasty terrain. Each kingdom had to be reached and conquered separately. Yet the Spanish conquered the Aztec Empire, a much larger and internally organized political entity, and took over the whole in a matter of 2 years, because the entire empire was so well organized. The Spanish cut off the head and replaced it with themselves, and the tributary system kept on feeding treasures and staple goods into the centre. Eventually, the conquered peoples drifted away, and needed to be subjugated again directly, but by that time reinforcements had arrived, diseases had spread and other subjugated peoples provided manpower.

Pizzaro had similar conditions against the Inca. The incredible supply chain the Inca had built up in their empire supplied the Spaniards and their allies for years, sometimes decades with food, clothing, weapons, shelter, etc.

Ironically, some of the toughest people to conquer were the least politically organized. Tribes in the Amazon rainforest were devilishly difficult to pin down, because they had little investment in infrastructure to try to protect, and they had poison darts, the best technology the Americas could produce against the armour of the Europeans. They didn't have to overcome the armour, but merely scratch to kill.

So how does any of this apply to NAN vs. U.S. and Canada? There are some direct correlates. The NAN insurgents faced a much larger, powerful and organized enemy. Yet they had technology (magic) the enemy did not have right away (and if it is true they were fed some mojo form the Horrors, then the enemy never had it), and were able to use the existing infrastructure to feed, house and arm themselves. Do we have to work to suspend disbelief somewhat to accept that it would have lasted? Yes, we do. So what? Dragons? Elves? Immortality?

And, let's face it, if we want a real life example of how a small but motivated group can stick it to the world's greatest military power, do we need to think too long for a current example?

[Kurious]

The only thing that surprises me is that Texas didn't ... go independent.

Seconded.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm not sure I understand the disbelief here. The U.S. was weakened by disease, disaster, and corporate hegemony. They fell to an enemy armed with what was, at that time, a weapon that they could not counter. If you believe that can't happen, you're the same kind of person scoffing at the plot of The Dark Knight, and frankly, I think you have a bit too much faith in the stability of society. Civilization is fragile; a single hurricane managed to reduce New Orleans to lawless anarchy; and that was just one storm, in just one city. A Jewish man running over a black child in NYC set part of Brooklyn into chaos; a police brutality trial set a good part of Los Angeles on fire for DAYS.

The Ghost Dance caused disasters all over the U.S., simultaneously, during what was, in essence, a civil war. The only thing that surprises me is that Texas didn't make like California and go independent.

The point I at least have been trying to make is that while civilization is fragile the events of the GDW literally depend on a unified and illogical response by the people being expelled from the territories. It literally requires them NOT TO FIGHT back as just by population numbers and level of resistance make the situation unworkable. It also requires the US not only to break up and give up half it's territory in response to a a WMD attack but not to retaliate to that WMD attack in any fashion. IT requires an increasingly tenous strain of circumstances to supprt 1) Vitas doesn't kill any Natam's 2) Natams get enough magical mojo to fight off the US 3) US doesn't respond under MAD principles 4) No resistance is made to the mass relocation 5) No further wars are fought between the UCAS and NAN when the magical forces are a little more balanced.

[JonathanC]

The point I at least have been trying to make is that while civilization is fragile the events of the GDW literally depend on a unified and illogical response by the people being expelled from the territories. It literally requires them NOT TO FIGHT back as just by population numbers and level of resistance make the situation unworkable. It also requires the US not only to break up and give up half it's territory in response to a a WMD attack but not to retaliate to that WMD attack in any fashion. IT requires an increasingly tenous strain of circumstances to supprt 1) Vitas doesn't kill any Natam's 2) Natams get enough magical mojo to fight off the US 3) US doesn't respond under MAD principles 4) No resistance is made to the mass relocation 5) No further wars are fought between the UCAS and NAN when the magical forces are a little more balanced.

It's perfectly logical for civilians to flee instead of fight. It's a natural human response - we flatter ourselves into thinking that we're heroic by nature, but we're a species of cowards, for the most part. Without strong leadership, even large groups will break in the face of organized opposition. It's the primary reason that slavery has remained viable throughout human existence.

[LurkerOutThere]

Except as you pointed out in another thread, when was the last time you saw two indians standing together. Your talking about hundreds of thousdands of people who cities and communities depopulating and leaving their land for a potential unknown exile for a vastly numerically inferior population. Their facing an unknown variable either way, when you give a person two unknowns they will always pick the one that has the potential of maintaing the status quo, that's why the NAN doesn't work.

[pbangarth]

Except as you pointed out in another thread, when was the last time you saw two indians standing together.

This summer, along with a bunch of Anglos, holding out against a proposed dumpsite on top of an aquifer with the cleanest water known on Earth. It worked.

[LurkerOutThere]

It was an ironic statement not something i was asking seriously, ah context.

[Saint Sithney]

Likening the NAN to holocaust survivors is frankly insulting to those who did survive the holocaust as the Saim were essentially Nazi's with feathers given magic by a creature bent on ending the world so they could better hasten their return.

SAIM was not the tribal leaders. They were the brash youths who decided that a policy of direct action was the only way to get the world to hear them. Though, I suppose William Wallace was "essentially a Nazi" because he fought back against an occupying force due to their centuries-old policies of abuse and cultural annihilation? The whole escapade was written as a parallel to the holocaust. Intentionally. That was the point - Concentration camps turned death camps. It was meant to be an American holocaust, therefore comparing them to holocaust survivors is more than just accurate, it is exactly what they were envisioned to be when the scenario was created. And please, for Godwin's sake, don't pretend to be insulted on behalf of holocaust survivors. It's not a good look.

[Traul]

The point I at least have been trying to make is that while civilization is fragile the events of the GDW literally depend on a unified and illogical response by the people being expelled from the territories. It literally requires them NOT TO FIGHT back as just by population numbers and level of resistance make the situation unworkable. It also requires the US not only to break up and give up half it's territory in response to a a WMD attack but not to retaliate to that WMD attack in any fashion.

What was the Japanese reaction to Hiroshima?

[LurkerOutThere]

As was said several pages ago, there's not really a comparison. Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened when Japanese forces had already been kicked out of much of the pacific theater and forced back to the Japanese mainland. The Japanese ability to make war had been significantly curtailed and they had little to no ability to agressively strike at their enemy. Also, and this is the telling part for me, no one asked the Japanese as part of the surrender to mass relocate or anything of that nature.

[Ravor]

Besides the point since America has WMDs of our own and numbers on our side. Besides, had Japan actually been winning the war at the time or even had the ability to retalate effectively it's very doubtful the end result would have been the same.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

People, let's recap, shall we?

Taken from Shadowrun 2nd edition:

Shadowrun's World and go separate ways around the 1990's. In 1999 there's the whole Seretech vs USA trial and the Supreme Court declares that Seretech can have its own private army and congratulates them for killing people lest could lead to a greater catastrophe. In 2005, a great earthquake shatters New York, killing 200k people and leaving 200 BILLIONS dollar of damaged infra-structure, personel, etc...
After the Lone Eagle Incident, the native americans were used as scape goats for the whole thing and the corporate propaganda convinced every one that the native americans were dangerous and should be put int "re-education" camps.
VITAS happened in 2010
Also, the Apartheid lasted as far as 2014. (Just to show how different the time lines are)
It is said that the magical power of NAN is comparable to the nuclear power of the USA. Also, it is worth mentioning that if the US started nuking their own territory, they could even defeat the NAN, but wouldn't take the territory back.
The Treaty of Denver, signed in 2018 said that there would be a period of 10 years to relocate the populations.

[Ravor]

You do realize that the ten year limit you so boldly written for me only makes the NAN less likely to survive right?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

You do realize that the ten year limit you so boldly written for me only makes the NAN less likely to survive right?

Perhaps, perhaps not. My point is, when Howling Coyote shows up in 2014, it ignites a civil war that lasts almost five years. Then, all hell breaks loose when mounts Hood, Rainier, St Helen and Adams explode. The civil population might have panicked and simply complied.
I'm not saying that everybody accepted quietly, surely there were people who "will leave their homes in a coffin", and I believe that the native americans would gladly help this happen.
Is the balcanization of Canada, MExico and US improbable? Sure! But given the rest of the scenario, it fits nicely.

[Megu]

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Nov 4 2009, 07:34 PM) *
Except as you pointed out in another thread, when was the last time you saw two indians standing together.

This summer, along with a bunch of Anglos, holding out against a proposed dumpsite on top of an aquifer with the cleanest water known on Earth. It worked.

This is the best post I've seen in the thread. I feel like you and I are really on the same page; this captures the spirit of the way I see the NAN movement really eloquently, and rises above the citation shitstorm.

[BlueMax]

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Nov 4 2009, 07:34 PM) *
Except as you pointed out in another thread, when was the last time you saw two indians standing together.



This is the best post I've seen in the thread. I feel like you and I are really on the same page; this captures the spirit of the way I see the NAN movement really eloquently, and rises above the citation shitstorm.

Sorry, my citation was meant to be humorous.

EPIC FAIL on my part

BlueMax

[BlueMax]

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Nov 4 2009, 07:34 PM) *
Except as you pointed out in another thread, when was the last time you saw two indians standing together.



This is the best post I've seen in the thread. I feel like you and I are really on the same page; this captures the spirit of the way I see the NAN movement really eloquently, and rises above the citation shitstorm.

Sorry, my citation was meant to be humorous.

EPIC FAIL on my part

BlueMax

[kigmatzomat]

This was on another thread but I'm going to sum up one argument.

1. The whole "land grab" where national parks, government owned resources, and indian lands being handed over to the corps is a clear sign that the "politicians" are neither patriots nor honorable. These are bought men and women with essentially no loyalty or allegiance to their constituency. Money is their only friend.

2. The US economy as a whole is pretty kicked. $200 billion in damages to the east coast. Who knows how much economic damage was done in the time it took to relocate Wall Street to Boston.

3. VITAS maimed the populace and economy. The US economy is based on high efficiencies, meaning events that impact productivity for prolonged periods have multipliers that don't exist in less efficient economies where there is slack that can be taken up. See how well the US is able to supply medicines for H1N1 with months of warning. Vitas was a total shock.

4. The president is assassinated and the assassin is never caught.

5. Howling Coyote takes responsibility for the Rodondo volcano that hits Los Alamos by hijacking TV. He becomes a punch line for late night TV.

6. The tornado that trashed the Air Cavalry after the Los Alamos volcano was a very big blow. If my web-fu is right, the "Attack" 1st Battalion of Air Cav out of Fort Hood has about 3 dozen AH-64s. Assuming all were lost to the storm, it takes out 5% of the US' total Longbow forces, destroys $650-700 million worth of hardware, and kills about 70 combat pilots. That is like the entire aircraft losses in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

7. The guerilla campaign waged by Howling Coyote was part of a media blackout. The normal patriotic westerners caught in the crossfire were not only ignored, they were actively silenced by the government. Given the latent mistrust of "big city government" that lurks in the western states, this could readily cause the populace to believe the stories of a government frame-up and begin sympathizing with the proto-NAN.

8. The media blackout backfired when the masses discovered the "long defeated" indians had been waging a guerilla campaign for years. Worse than that, the indians appeared to be more effective than the military. Howling Coyote stopped being the punch line to a joke when he turns out to be so hard to kill that the government had to cover it up how badly they failed.

9. Once the lid blew off, it took literally months to get an operation off the ground to take out the NAN. Why did it take months? "Accidents" "Bad Weather", all the while the mention of "indian magic" make the rounds and stop being funny.

10. 15 minutes after the publicized launch of the operation, 3 volcanoes blow. Suddenly the jokes from a couple of years ago become a nightmare. Can the NAN cause a second New York quake? How about hitting the San Andreas or the New Madrid fault lines, either of which would decimate the nation and gut the economies.

11. Go back to #1. The politicians are self-interested weasels. They are afraid of their bribes, er, investments being trashed. And there's the risk that the NAN will turn their dark magics on them. (Was Garrity's assassin helped by the indians? Oh noes! Magic assassin!) Yeah, these guys are made of the stern stuff required to fight volcano-wielding natives. Not.

12. A competent mexico in the form of Aztlan supports the NAN, posing a credible military threat to the south, not to mention a probable supplier of weapons, ammo, and other combat gear to the NAN.

13. Even if the politicians wanted to be "Indian Givers" after signing the treaty, the world gets hit by Goblinization. Derail any military plans with martial law, major race riots, panics, etc.

14. After Goblinization the world gets slapped around by VITAS again. Yeah, military operations really work when 10% of the army dies and the other 90% is busy with humanitarian aid efforts within our own borders.


So yeah, I personally think the NAN is plausible, even if not exactly probable.

Note that I also left out any "immortal elves" from the mix. By canon, they should be there working behind the scenes to get Tir Taringire from the NAN.

[KCKitsune]

@kigmatzomat, you forget that the US might go "Oh No! Howling Coyote can kill a whole lot more people! Let's give in!"

... or they might go "OK, Howling Coyote might kill a whole lot of people, and if we give in he most likely take everything! Kill them all and let God sort 'em out. Nuclear Weapons are hereby authorized." Yes the US might kill a whole lot of innocent people, but compared to what might happened... a whole lot more agreeable.

Now before you poo-poo my nukes idea, the Indians will have gathering points. If you have collateral damage... explain it away as such: "We had intel that the terrorist who just killed 18,000 people were located in this area and they were just about to launch another attack. We responded in due haste to eliminate these terrorist."

This summer, along with a bunch of Anglos, holding out against a proposed dumpsite on top of an aquifer with the cleanest water known on Earth. It worked.

Apples and oranges pbangarth. If the government wanted to have those people off that site, they would be off that site. It would have politically messy, but it would have been done.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

@kigmatzomat, you forget that the US might go "Oh No! Howling Coyote can kill a whole lot more people! Let's give in!"

... or they might go "OK, Howling Coyote might kill a whole lot of people, and if we give in he most likely take everything! Kill them all and let God sort 'em out. Nuclear Weapons are hereby authorized." Yes the US might kill a whole lot of innocent people, but compared to what might happened... a whole lot more agreeable.

Now before you poo-poo my nukes idea, the Indians will have gathering points. If you have collateral damage... explain it away as such: "We had intel that the terrorist who just killed 18,000 people were located in this area and they were just about to launch another attack. We responded in due haste to eliminate these terrorist."

The problem is nuking your own country. If you have any hope of taking the territory back, you WON'T nuke it, otherwise you will have to wait for years before you can live there again. Without mentioning fallout, poisoned water supplies, two-headed babies (although after goblinization, a to-headed baby will be considered "commonplace")

[Synner667]

Interesting stuff, even if things have got a little heated.

Personally, I don't thinks it's a good discussion if people don't get passionate about their view.

Anyways...
...I was wondering that if magic was just starting to manifest what else has happened ??

Was there outbreaks oof hauntings ??
Spontaneous strange occurences ??
Spells working with devastating results ??

Was there a tipping point - one week spells fail, another week they work ??

What was the rest of the worlds reaction to the US treatment of American Indians ??

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

What was the rest of the worlds reaction to the US treatment of American Indians ??

Europe had shit of its own to deal with. A lot of riots and nuclear reactors melting down.
Russia quite possibly wouldn't say anything, since they pretty much had this same kind of problem with the various separatist movements.
Japan was busy making money using their new orbital solar panels. It is possible that some ultra-nationalists would hope for the USA being beat down as revanchism for Iroshima and Nagasaki.

[JonathanC]

Except as you pointed out in another thread, when was the last time you saw two indians standing together. Your talking about hundreds of thousdands of people who cities and communities depopulating and leaving their land for a potential unknown exile for a vastly numerically inferior population. Their facing an unknown variable either way, when you give a person two unknowns they will always pick the one that has the potential of maintaing the status quo, that's why the NAN doesn't work.

If you don't want it to work, you can argue against anything. But this? This isn't really an argument in favor of the NAN being unrealistic. Clearly Native Americans exist in some numbers; we just don't see them much. I imagine the shock of seeing a bunch of them wielding magic, weapon foci, and automatic weapons is going to cow any crowd. I'm sorry, but while individuals may be motivated to heroic deeds, crowds are opportunistic cowards. Without someone leading them, they'll break easily. A charismatic leader like Howling Coyote could easily cow a group like that.

And if you don't believe in the cowardice of groups, try googling Kitty Genovese, or a similar, more recent case at Richmond High School.

[pbangarth]

Apples and oranges pbangarth. If the government wanted to have those people off that site, they would be off that site. It would have politically messy, but it would have been done.

But the context of the question was not about whether the Indians standing together would be opposed. It was a question about whether there would be cooperation among them enough to make a stand. It asked when was the last time anyone saw such a thing. I saw such a thing this summer.

[aside]
And what made it a particularly important spectacle, to many of us, was that it was aboriginal people standing together with non-aboriginal people for a common purpose. The First Nations people made the first statement by occupying the proposed dump site, blocking further construction, and then neighbouring farmers and townspeople came out to stand with them and to bring food, shelters and other supplies. In other places and other times in Canada, as I suspect just so in the U.S., such cooperation would have been unimaginable. I can think of a few just off the top of my head. There have also been times when violence erupted.

An old Armed Forces base, built during the Second World War on aboriginal land, was promised to be evacuated and returned after the war. Didn't happen. In the 90's the original native band re-occupied the base. There was confrontation, the provincial premier wanted the police and military to "Get those fucking Indians out of there." One was shot dead by police. Despite that, they kept the land and still live there. The premier is long gone, as well as his government.

Yes, both aboriginal and non-aboriginal peoples have been removed forcibly from such blockades in the past. Probably it will happen again. But in this one place, a proposed dumpsite over a pristine water source, the people faced down the government over a bad decision, without violence. Looked good to me.
[/aside]

In terms of other aspects of the NAN actions, other posts earlier have addressed them well. I don't need to reiterate.