NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[CanRay]

Because everyone knows that crowded prisons camps are just the healthiest place in the world. ...

Compared to plague-ridden overcrowded sprawls like New York, and most European cities, they are.

[killfr3nzy]

People with rights tend to have more pull when they complain about living conditions, and people who are monitored 24/7 have little defence about getting found out, taken aside and shot. (refering to disease control)
I'm hazy about VITAS fluff, but what if there were no infected there?

[Ascalaphus]

Well, a camp that no-one wants to go near might be bad IF it gets infected, but the infection might never get there. Also, magical healing might work against a disease even if it stumps classical scientists.

[Kruger]

I think there just has to be a suspension of disbelief that the camps were not affected by VITAS. Because yeah,with those kinds of living conditions, all it would have taken was the even the slightest exposure.

[Mordinvan]

edit: someone beat me to it.

[Mordinvan]

I propose the "Pern" solution.

The Native Americans and Aztecs are REAL Native Americans and Aztecs.

People ask, "What caused the Aztecs or Mayas to disappear?" The answer? They didn't disappear. They moved forward in time.

The Anasazi are back in force. Chaco Canyon and Mesa Verde are boomtowns. (Pueblo Grande de Nevada, not so much....)

Sure, why not, I mean they did so good against "guns, germs and steel" the first time, I'm sure they'd look forward to a rematch.

[pbangarth]

I always thought the NAN got the short stick as far as Canada goes, seems like a perfect setting for a NAN upswing.

Yeah, yeah, responding twice to the same post, I know. But I had to think about the second part for a while.

From an economic standpoint, parts of Canada should be literal gold mines for the NAN. The Alberta oil sands, North America's answer to Saudi Arabia, would be in NAN hands. And fossil fuels are still a big part of the energy supply even in the 2070s. Similarly, very lucrative potash (fertilizer for the world), gold and diamond mines are in Saskatchewan, Northwest Territories and Nunavut. These are currently and would continue to be in the 2070s huge sources of wealth for the government and people through taxes and royalties.

An egregious oversight in the balkanization of N. America is that Québec stayed all in one piece. A huge chunk of it, if the Ghost Dance would actually do what the fluff says, would be taken back by the Cree. Specifically, the chunk that has all the hydro-electric dams that supply electricity to a lot of the northeast of the continent. If the oil sands were to go, this would go too.

Probably the following belongs in another thread, but a strong argument could be made that a more successful go of independence would be made by Ontario than by Québec, for all the language and culture rhetoric.

[pbangarth]

Sure, why not, I mean they did so good against "guns, germs and steel" the first time, I'm sure they'd look forward to a rematch.

Well, the Maya and the Inuit are back to the numbers they had before the arrival of Europeans. In Canada anyway, the birthrate among First Nations peoples is way above the national average. Maybe the 'rematch' is already underway.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I propose the "Pern" solution.

The Native Americans and Aztecs are REAL Native Americans and Aztecs.

People ask, "What caused the Aztecs or Mayas to disappear?" The answer? They didn't disappear. They moved forward in time.

The Anasazi are back in force. Chaco Canyon and Mesa Verde are boomtowns. (Pueblo Grande de Nevada, not so much....)

Well on a more serious note some Mexicans are into the native ancestry thing. We have approx 20 million illegal aliens in the USA now, and about 10% of our population is immigrants from south of the boarder. If you include Mexicans with native ancestry into the native American #s well then 20 million fluffs that 1% quite a bit. So even without time traveling Aztecs you can have a decent native population to start with.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Well on a more serious note some Mexicans are into the native ancestry thing. We have approx 20 million illegal aliens in the USA now, and about 10% of our population is immigrants from south of the boarder. If you include Mexicans with native ancestry into the native American #s well then 20 million fluffs that 1% quite a bit. So even without time traveling Aztecs you can have a decent native population to start with.

Or people that would be more than willing to shoot their former white boss in the face in exchange of a new gonvernment where he/she would have a voice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Well, the Maya and the Inuit are back to the numbers they had before the arrival of Europeans. In Canada anyway, the birthrate among First Nations peoples is way above the national average. Maybe the 'rematch' is already underway.

I was speaking specifically about the Aztec, but most if not all first nations were badly hurt by the introduction of European diseases, and technology.

[Mooncrow]

I was speaking specifically about the Aztec, but most if not all first nations were badly hurt by the introduction of European diseases, and technology.

All would be about right; even the most conservative estimates put the death toll from European diseases at greater than 75% of the native North American population. Though to be fair, there isn't evidence that much of it was done deliberately.

Another thing about the population numbers though, I believe today that NA heritage is considered to be 1/4 or higher - I doubt that was the standard that the new NAN held, so you are potentially looking at a much much larger population base.

[Ascalaphus]

An egregious oversight in the balkanization of N. America is that Québec stayed all in one piece. A huge chunk of it, if the Ghost Dance would actually do what the fluff says, would be taken back by the Cree. Specifically, the chunk that has all the hydro-electric dams that supply electricity to a lot of the northeast of the continent. If the oil sands were to go, this would go too.

Probably the following belongs in another thread, but a strong argument could be made that a more successful go of independence would be made by Ontario than by Québec, for all the language and culture rhetoric.

Quebec got away with because the Balkanization Recipe basically calls for any "oppressed" "conquered peoples" to "rise again". And Quebec is that for Canada; or at least the one foreigners actually know about. The same reason the NAN didn't pop up in the CAS; they already had a different "rise again" thing going on.

Shadows of Europe makes this even more obvious.

[Mordinvan]

Another thing about the population numbers though, I believe today that NA heritage is considered to be 1/4 or higher - I doubt that was the standard that the new NAN held, so you are potentially looking at a much much larger population base.

I'm just thinking about the U.S. typical response to threats, or acts of violence. A couple nuts flew 4 planes into 3 buildings and a field, and the U.S. didn't surrender. It leveled 2 other countries, one of which had NOTHING to do with the incident in question. So I don't exactly see surrender being an option of choice if the GGD happened. The pressure against the native populations would have increased exponentially, possibly resulting in either an accidental or intentional genocide, but NOT the surrender of over 1/2 of North America.

[Daylen]

Or people that would be more than willing to shoot their former white boss in the face in exchange of a new gonvernment where he/she would have a voice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Do you mind keeping the racism and lying down and the spelling correct?

[Daylen]

I'm just thinking about the U.S. typical response to threats, or acts of violence. A couple nuts flew 4 planes into 3 buildings and a field, and the U.S. didn't surrender. It leveled 2 other countries, one of which had NOTHING to do with the incident in question. So I don't exactly see surrender being an option of choice if the GGD happened. The pressure against the native populations would have increased exponentially, possibly resulting in either an accidental or intentional genocide, but NOT the surrender of over 1/2 of North America.

having volcanoes suddenly appear in heavily populated cities? yea I think we'd probably break out the biological and chemical weapons if nukes didn't work (which is the biggest pile of BS) and conventional weapons were not enough. I have a hard time with suspension of belief on conventional weapons not being adequate. Tanks and artillery don't care about storms. cruise missiles don't care about weather, and fighter jets travel so fast and have so much power that any possible weather they can blast through and not notice much.

I can buy balkinization. I can't buy genocidal balkinization were its small groups breaking off from the main part of USA. And as evidence of what happens when a group tries to leave the union, even peacefully, look at the US war of northern aggression. They destroyed the south for leaving and murdered civilians and even had a razed earth strategy, Sherman's March.

[Yerameyahu]

You mean the Civil War to preserve the union? Against the side that repeatedly said in public, 'this war is about our right to own humans'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mordinvan]

They destroyed the south for leaving and murdered civilians and even had a razed earth strategy, Sherman's March.

I think that may be simplifying the causes of the conflict a little too much.

[Daylen]

I think that may be simplifying the causes of the conflict a little too much.

Well would you rather me post a dissertation? I'd rather not take us off topic. Simplifying things doesn't change the basic point I was trying to make.

[Daylen]

You mean the Civil War to preserve the union? Against the side that repeatedly said in public, 'this war is about our right to own humans'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And who are you quoting on that? Putting quotes one a statement you make does not make it true. I could easily say no I mean the War of Northern Aggression started by the side that said repeatedly in public 'this war is to murder and destroy those who won't sell us cotton and other raw materials for a cheep cheep price'. But I will not do it because its a faulty show of evidence and it further sidetracks the thread.

[Mooncrow]

And who are you quoting on that? Putting quotes one a statement you make does not make it true. I could easily say no I mean the War of Northern Aggression started by the side that said repeatedly in public 'this war is to murder and destroy those who won't sell us cotton and other raw materials for a cheep cheep price'. But I will not do it because its a faulty show of evidence and it further sidetracks the thread.

Here is a point where simplifying is worse than posting nothing at all.

[Mordinvan]

And who are you quoting on that? Putting quotes one a statement you make does not make it true. I could easily say no I mean the War of Northern Aggression started by the side that said repeatedly in public 'this war is to murder and destroy those who won't sell us cotton and other raw materials for a cheep cheep price'. But I will not do it because its a faulty show of evidence and it further sidetracks the thread.

May I kindly point out that political discussions not directly related to shadowrun are against the TOS. If you would care to discuss the causes of a war which has little if anything to do with the SR timeline using such politically charged overtones, might I suggest finding a more appropriate forum?

[Daylen]

Here is a point where simplifying is worse than posting nothing at all.

perhaps; but of late I have less patience for misuse of quotes and the like when arguing.

[suoq]

<- Born in Connecticut. Agrees with Daylen. Thinks "War of Northern Aggression" is the correct term. Flees that part of the discussion.

There really are two basic issues. (Look! Over there!)
1) It seemed like a good idea in the 80's. It's really hard to look at a current sourcebook with 2010 eyes and not wonder what people were smoking. We look at the NAN in terms of Terrorism because Terrorism is the conflict of today. But the foundation for all of this was laid during the end of the Cold War.
We look at politics with eyes that have seen Clinton, Bush, and Obama, judging source material written after 8 years of Reagan. We're looking at Apple II GS material with iPhone eyes.

2) We're trying to be realistic with a fantasy world. At some point, something is going to make someone go "huh?". There is bound to be "the least believable material" somewhere in the book. Maybe it's the NAN. Maybe it's that a Dragon can be elected president by people who hate elves and dwarves. Maybe it's Buttercup. Maybe it's Berlin. Whatever it is, there's something that's going to make less sense then everything else.

[Critias]

There's no way a conversation that turns towards the American Civil War is going to (a) end well, and (b) avoid turning political. I've had many, many, more than my fair share of such conversations in places much more civil and supposedly-professional than Dumpshock (I'm talking national academic conferences, here), and seen it happen a dozen times.

Let's just pretend the last half dozen posts weren't ever made, huh, gang? Nothing good can come of this. Let's just squelch that line of conversation before the mods have to come in and shut down a 30 page thread over it.