NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[Daylen]

Maybe it's Berlin.

Am I missing something? Why would a city need suspension of belief?

[Megu]

An egregious oversight in the balkanization of N. America is that Québec stayed all in one piece. A huge chunk of it, if the Ghost Dance would actually do what the fluff says, would be taken back by the Cree. Specifically, the chunk that has all the hydro-electric dams that supply electricity to a lot of the northeast of the continent. If the oil sands were to go, this would go too.

Probably the following belongs in another thread, but a strong argument could be made that a more successful go of independence would be made by Ontario than by Québec, for all the language and culture rhetoric.

At first, I'm inclined to agree, but I kind of find myself wondering if there may have been some kind of under-the-table alliance between Separatist elements in Quebec and the SAIM once it became clear that the Natives had a real shot at doing something. Don't take any of Quebec and we won't participate against you, which takes out a huge chunk of the Canadian system from the Anglo side of the fight. Instead of an oversight, maybe it's a key piece of the geopolitical puzzle of the Ghost Dance War upheaval.

[suoq]

Am I missing something? Why would a city need suspension of belief?

2015 - Anarchy Version I - tear down the city. Drive everyone else to wall you in.
2023 - Anarchy Version II - burn down the city that you tore down 8 years ago.
2038 - Anarchist Paramedics - save the people who burned down and then tore down the city because no one cares (because everyone else is on the OTHER side of the wall).
2058 - The corporate invasion. "Bugs! Bugs! Trust the organized people with guns who are shooting at you! We're here to help. Bugs!"
(Seriously, what was left in Berlin at that point that made it worth invading?)
2060 - The anarchists sign a treaty with the corporations. Apparently the anarchists have someone in charge who can sign a treaty.

The suspension of disbelief is required to believe that there's a city even standing there.

[CanRay]

I'm not sure. After all, the Allied Forces certainly tried to bomb and burn down everything in Berlin, and there was still stuff worth fighting over.

Same could be said of London as well, only on the Axis side. Well, OK, German. I don't think the Italians tried much after their biplanes were shot down during the Battle of Britain.

[Yerameyahu]

For the record, I didn't quote anything at all. I paraphrased. If you want the reference, I could provide it, but I certainly did nothing that could qualify as 'misuse' or 'faulty evidence'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I vote for the President Dunkelzahn as the most crazy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Iconically awesome, though.

[kzt]

I think that may be simplifying the causes of the conflict a little too much.

Have you ever read the "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union" that the government of SC issued to justify it's secession? http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

Look at the issues it focused on.

[Grinder]

As Critias posted before:


4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

[sabs]

Is the Secession letter from South Carolina that started the Civil War really Politics? Or is it firmly in the grounds of history?

[Mooncrow]

Is the Secession letter from South Carolina that started the Civil War really Politics? Or is it firmly in the grounds of history?

Since you can't discuss the letter without getting into politics, does it really matter? And comments not meant to lead to discussion are rather pointless.

[sabs]

You cant' talk about the Civil War without going into politics? in 2010? REALLY?

And given that the South seceded again in the Shadowrun timeline, AND the NAN take over of 60% of the North American Landmass. I think that it's a perfectly valid point to bring up when talking about the reasons for the NAN secession.

[TommyTwoToes]

having volcanoes suddenly appear in heavily populated cities? yea I think we'd probably break out the biological and chemical weapons if nukes didn't work (which is the biggest pile of BS) and conventional weapons were not enough. I have a hard time with suspension of belief on conventional weapons not being adequate. Tanks and artillery don't care about storms. cruise missiles don't care about weather, and fighter jets travel so fast and have so much power that any possible weather they can blast through and not notice much.
<snip>

The US claims not to have biological or chemical weapons past the ammounts needed for defensive research (ie just enough to test how effective counter agents are) which is why we have a policy that any WMD justifies the use of a nuke. Nukes = Chem = Bio.

With the the bulk of the ICBM silos in the area's claimed by the NAN, and the uncertainty over how magic can stop conventional attacks, or even bombers and sub launched missiles, the US has to consider the NAN demands.

I think another possible polarizing issue would be Red state vs Blue state (don't ask me which is which, I can never remember). If the voters in the areas that are due to be surrendered are primarily from "the other" political party. It doesn't cost the current political leadership as much, in fact they get to spare their politcal base from the effects of a long and costly war, on American soil, by taking all the people who are from the opposition and shunting them off into another country. All you need is a pen to redraw the border.

That seems very in theme, a corrupt, desperate government taking the easiest road to preserve their own political power. Add in corporate lobby groups that advocate balkinization as a way to increase the relative power of their respective corps and now you have a weak political leadership grabbing onto whatever hope they can find of retaining power.

[Mooncrow]

You cant' talk about the Civil War without going into politics? in 2010? REALLY?

/boggle

I saw a fistfight almost break out in one of my grad school PolSci Civil War classes over similar issues - we had to wrestle the two guys to the ground to get them to stop. While that level of response may be a little over the top, as Critias said, even at national level academic conferences, screaming matches breaking out are not that uncommon.

So yes, many people still consider this to be a relevant political topic.

[Yerameyahu]

And they're wrong; the issue is settled. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Silly people.

Today, we can argue about the NAN secession, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I still think 'magic scary' is plenty of reason for me. *shrug*

[Doc Chase]

And they're wrong; the issue is settled. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Silly people.

Today, we can argue about the NAN secession, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I still think 'magic scary' is plenty of reason for me. *shrug*

They also gave up a good deal of land that didn't do much for the NAN- or at least the Ute. Then again, the Ute weren't very good at administration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Shave off some serious drain on the resources and keep their major population centers (except CalFree, but who cares about them?) and leave the grasslands and desert as the home of the braves.

[Mooncrow]

The US claims not to have biological or chemical weapons past the ammounts needed for defensive research (ie just enough to test how effective counter agents are) which is why we have a policy that any WMD justifies the use of a nuke. Nukes = Chem = Bio.

With the the bulk of the ICBM silos in the area's claimed by the NAN, and the uncertainty over how magic can stop conventional attacks, or even bombers and sub launched missiles, the US has to consider the NAN demands.

I think another possible polarizing issue would be Red state vs Blue state (don't ask me which is which, I can never remember). If the voters in the areas that are due to be surrendered are primarily from "the other" political party. It doesn't cost the current political leadership as much, in fact they get to spare their politcal base from the effects of a long and costly war, on American soil, by taking all the people who are from the opposition and shunting them off into another country. All you need is a pen to redraw the border.

That seems very in theme, a corrupt, desperate government taking the easiest road to preserve their own political power. Add in corporate lobby groups that advocate balkinization as a way to increase the relative power of their respective corps and now you have a weak political leadership grabbing onto whatever hope they can find of retaining power.

You also have the camps to think about - those type of things really sap American political will. Add in a corrupt government that the people don't trust, and a potential war on American soil, fear of magic, and I don't think many politicians would have felt secure enough in their support to advocate WMD use or even sending in the troops.

[Doc Chase]

You also have the camps to think about - those type of things really sap American political will. Add in a corrupt government that the people don't trust, and a potential war on American soil, fear of magic, and I don't think many politicians would have felt secure enough in their support to advocate WMD use or even sending in the troops.

I don't think any politician would ever advocate a nuclear strike on their own soil.

I think that the US started schlepping their nukes out of the Midwest after Lone Eagle, though - and I wouldn't be surprised if world leaders were quietly talking to one another about their deterrence options failing around that time.

[TommyTwoToes]

<snip>
I think that the US started schlepping their nukes out of the Midwest after Lone Eagle, though - and I wouldn't be surprised if world leaders were quietly talking to one another about their deterrence options failing around that time.

I don't know how feasable that would be. ICBM's are not the easiest things to transport. They are fueled with horrifically toxic chemicals. They are easy to break with lateral stresses. You would need specialized equiptment just to get them out of the silos.

Even if you get the nukes out, where are you going to put them? And who is going to pay for all this? Remember the government is in a fiscal shambles.

They would be faced with many of the problems that the Russians were faced with in the 90's. An enormous stockpile of weapons that they can't afford to maintain, decomission, or move to a secure location. Abandoning them in place sucks, but at least the people that will be taking them over are sort of greenish treehuggers.

[sabs]

/boggle

I saw a fistfight almost break out in one of my grad school PolSci Civil War classes over similar issues - we had to wrestle the two guys to the ground to get them to stop. While that level of response may be a little over the top, as Critias said, even at national level academic conferences, screaming matches breaking out are not that uncommon.

So yes, many people still consider this to be a relevant political topic.

I guess it's my turn to /boggle140
Up in the North, we kinda think of the civil war as.. done and over almost 150 years ago.
But I'm an immigrant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so I don't have a visceral reaction to it.

[sabs]

I don't know how feasable that would be. ICBM's are not the easiest things to transport. They are fueled with horrifically toxic chemicals. They are easy to break with lateral stresses. You would need specialized equiptment just to get them out of the silos.

Even if you get the nukes out, where are you going to put them? And who is going to pay for all this? Remember the government is in a fiscal shambles.

They would be faced with many of the problems that the Russians were faced with in the 90's. An enormous stockpile of weapons that they can't afford to maintain, decomission, or move to a secure location. Abandoning them in place sucks, but at least the people that will be taking them over are sort of greenish treehuggers.

Also, remember most of those ICBM's are built for hitting Russia/China. They cant' fly up and come back down only 200 miles away.
I suspect the answer is more of. Seal the Silos, cripple the hardware and get out.
The Weather wasn't really the big issue with the NAN.. it was the volcanoes popping up out of nowhere.

Was it still the US by then or had it become the UCAS already?
Either way, when faced with recovering from the first VITAS out break that made the black plague look like a common cold, and then the return of magic, and the NAN's surprising knowledge and expertise compared to the just bubbling up Hermetic mages that the Government could find and was still very skeptical about.

The NAN had not suffered from the VITAS outbreak. So, even though the Indian population was only 1% tops, almost 1/2 of the US/UCAS population had died by then. They probably were afraid to wage a land war in the continental United States against a foe of unknown strength. Add to that the North/South unrest. I dunno, the United States has shown a tenacity when sneak-attacked that makes me doubt the outcome.

[suoq]

On the topic of Missile Silos, how hard it is to move missiles out, etc. etc.

They make nice homes: http://www.missilebases.com/ Be sure to click on the "Properties for sale" link on the left of the site.

The whole "Nukes in Silos" bit is really Cold War. They're about as current as Commodore 64s. About the best use for a missile silo in Shadowrun is as a privately owned site. The nice thing is that location and plans are available, both for the GM and for the hackers.

[Grinder]

I guess it's my turn to /boggle140
Up in the North, we kinda think of the civil war as.. done and over almost 150 years ago.
But I'm an immigrant (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so I don't have a visceral reaction to it.

Stop it right now! Understand?

[pbangarth]

On the topic of Missile Silos, how hard it is to move missiles out, etc. etc.

They make nice homes: http://www.missilebases.com/ Be sure to click on the "Properties for sale" link on the left of the site.

The whole "Nukes in Silos" bit is really Cold War. They're about as current as Commodore 64s. About the best use for a missile silo in Shadowrun is as a privately owned site. The nice thing is that location and plans are available, both for the GM and for the hackers.

Awesome link... thanks. Talk about your secret base from which to plan the conquest of the world! Mwahahahahahaaaa.

[Doc Chase]

I don't know how feasable that would be. ICBM's are not the easiest things to transport. They are fueled with horrifically toxic chemicals. They are easy to break with lateral stresses. You would need specialized equiptment just to get them out of the silos.

Even if you get the nukes out, where are you going to put them? And who is going to pay for all this? Remember the government is in a fiscal shambles.

They would be faced with many of the problems that the Russians were faced with in the 90's. An enormous stockpile of weapons that they can't afford to maintain, decomission, or move to a secure location. Abandoning them in place sucks, but at least the people that will be taking them over are sort of greenish treehuggers.

Hmm. In that context, I'd say they'd trash the rockets and the computers, and schlep the fissile material to their 'secured' bunkers Back East, perhaps around Aberdeen way. Squatters can bust into the silos and start breaking the rocketry down to resell as scrap or as walls and roofs for their shantytowns.

[CanRay]

Rockets are cheap. Warheads, now they're expensive.

The problem would be removing the warheads quickly as the NAN Magician-assisted army of pissed off AmerIndians come down the stairway. Something about getting revenge or some such. Can't fathom why. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Rockets are cheap. Warheads, now they're expensive.

The problem would be removing the warheads quickly as the NAN Magician-assisted army of pissed off AmerIndians come down the stairway. Something about getting revenge or some such. Can't fathom why. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Ha! No kidding. However, I'd figure on the NANnies to be telling the white man to take his poison back to his homeland, and keep it out of theirs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)