NAN Fading, Has the NAN somehow faded into obscurity? Options

[Grinder]

Remember how

a) Americans react to threats
b) Americans get all worked up about "Their way of life" "Their Country"

Just look at the current rhetoric in politics. Look at the NYC Mosque debate/argument.

Now instead of 9/11 and a bunch of Islamic Extremist Terrorists. You have Los Alamos and Native American Indians.

I try not to think too much about the whole NAN thing, because it makes no sense. But, if you're going to actually poke at it and try to figure out how it ticked. There's some big issues.

Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.

Yeah
That does cause a problem.. for some.

But people treated blacks this way for over a 100 years after the Civil War. And in some places, it hasn't gotten a heck of a lot better.

Well, but Bob was alright folks..but he was part Injun.. and them folks are weird. They got this weird magic now too. That's just not Christian.
Don't underestimate our ability to rationalize prejudice. We're good at it.

It's not that I got something against them injuns.. but you know.. They're shifty fellas with all that magic.

I'm just saying that I don't buy an Oklahoma farmer siding with the NAN. Maybe in New Mexico/Arizona.. but having seen how they treat the reservations down down. I kind of doubt it.

Would some? Absolutely. But enough to make a difference? When the NAN has crazy rhetoric and is threatening basically a war of destruction?
There is 1 thing the fly over states are proud of. It's being Americans. USA #1, even if they aren't fond of the Fed Government.

Stop posting in this thread. Read the ToS and stick to it.

[Mordinvan]

You mean the guys they just summarily shipped out?

More like the guys they would need to ship out. Many of them would still have guns, and not like being asked to move.

[Ascalaphus]

It's a mutually assured destruction scenario.

The SAIM demonstrated that they had the means (Great Ghost Dance) and the will to inflict mass civilian casualties (Los Alomos), if the US chose to push through their genocide law.
This kind of demonstration reminds me of the Cold War, wherein both the US and the USSR wanted to make sure the other side understood that they'd retaliate if nukes were used.

The next step for the SAIM if no peace accord could be reached, might have been to use volcanic attacks against the east coast cities. And the US government believed that they could, and would.

Yeah, doing the GGD another time would have hurt the SAIM a lot, perhaps killed them, but!
- The US didn't really know that the GGD cost them that much
- If the Genocide Bill were to be carried out, they'd be dead anyway, so they'd have nothing to lose

I think the Treaty of Denver is the most sane thing to do, from both NAN and US standpoint; it's a typical Cold War standoff.

[Sengir]

More like the guys they would need to ship out. Many of them would still have guns, and not like being asked to move.

Sure, but what would they do about it? The NAN just forced the whole US military into a stalemate, a few malcontents would not be that much of a problem.

And don't underestimate the weariness of civillians after a long war, history shows that when borders got reshuffled most people reluctantly accepted their fate, no matter how heavily they were armed and how scared they were of the invaders.

[suoq]

The more people attempt to explain the NAN, the more I need an electric monk. (Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency)

The Electric Monk was a labour-saving device, like a dishwasher or a video recorder. Dishwashers washed tedious dishes for you, thus saving you the bother of washing them yourself, video recorders watched tedious television for you, thus saving you the bother of looking at it yourself; Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you what was becoming an increasingly onerous task, that of believing all the things the world expected you to believe.

The NAN, like Magic, works better if you simply don't try to explain it. Most of shadowrun seems to work that way. Is a dystopia because it's a dystopia. Any attempt at explaining it though economics makes it worse, not better. People eat soy food because they eat soy food. Any attempt at explaining actual food production and distribution makes it worse, not better. It's the setting of Metropolis without the plot that comes naturally from that setting. The Illuminatus! Trilogy makes more sense. In a way using the Illuminatus! Trilogy to explain Shadowrun makes more sense than trying to make sense out of Shadowrun. (Hmmm, a Shadowrun character that can see the Fnords. That would be fun.)

I need to upgrade my commlink to run a Fnord detector and get a higher grade Electric Monk.

[jaellot]

The more people attempt to explain the NAN, the more I need an electric monk. (Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency)



The NAN, like Magic, works better if you simply don't try to explain it. Most of shadowrun seems to work that way. Is a dystopia because it's a dystopia. Any attempt at explaining it though economics makes it worse, not better. People eat soy food because they eat soy food. Any attempt at explaining actual food production and distribution makes it worse, not better. It's the setting of Metropolis without the plot that comes naturally from that setting. The Illuminatus! Trilogy makes more sense. In a way using the Illuminatus! Trilogy to explain Shadowrun makes more sense than trying to make sense out of Shadowrun. (Hmmm, a Shadowrun character that can see the Fnords. That would be fun.)

I need to upgrade my commlink to run a Fnord detector and get a higher grade Electric Monk.

Yeah, the whole "nothing to eat but soy" is always a cause of great humor in our group instead of being argued realistically. There's Soy-kaf, then there's soyburgers, SOYlent green, soy-soy (an artifical food that tastes just like soy, made from soy!) and so on ad nauseum.

I totally agree with the "just roll with it" idea because what else can you really do? Arguing over the realistic ramifications of the forming of the NAN or how magic really works falls under the heading of "Shut up about the real physics of how a dragon would shoot fire and fly when your keeb is shooting the thing with their metal arm."

[CanRay]

You know, I'm still trying to figure out what NERPS are...

[Ascalaphus]

I haven't read 6WA yet, but I guess the NAN part in there wasn't too satisfying?

Because I'd certainly be interested in a good new NAN sourcebook. The NAN are there, too big to really retcon. I don't particularly like them, but that's more because my European background means that Native Americans just don't figure as big in my imagination as they might to an American.

I do think the NAN are fading, perhaps because most products are focusing on global stuff. This is annoying, because the NAN are there, and it's a bit of an embarrassing blurry area. I want a writeup that describes them and gives me ideas on how to use them.

[kzt]

I do think the NAN are fading, perhaps because most products are focusing on global stuff. This is annoying, because the NAN are there, and it's a bit of an embarrassing blurry area. I want a writeup that describes them and gives me ideas on how to use them.

You mean the product that describes how less then 10,000 Utes managed to somehow take over a chunk of the country where over 250,000 Navajo live? Oh, right, I forgot, there are no Navajo in SR cannon. Because doing even minimal research apparently wasn't allowed when you worked at FASA.

[Acme]

Uh hello, the NAN 1 says that the Navajo are part of the PCC along with the Apache. And largely it could be 50/50. Just 'cause the countries are named after one specific tribe doesn't mean that they're the dominant tribe. The Ute could have just been named that because Daniel Howling Coyote was Ute and they named it after him in honor.

[Megu]

I think I remember the canon explanation in SoNA being that the Navajo didn't have as much political punch per capita as the Hopi and Zuni in the PCC, due to their lesser/later participation in the rebellion, much the same reason the TPA is "Aleut" and not Inuit, despite much larger Inuit numbers. The biggest issue I have (my field being linguistics) is that the Hopi and Zuni languages seem to be stronger in canon fluff than Dene (the Navajo language), despite being functionally moribund today, whereas Dene, I mean, it's not in great shape, but it's the strongest Native language in the lower 48 and has a hundred times the speakers of the former 2. I mean, I've always assumed immersion programs with linguasoft-equipped teachers would go a long way towards explaining the revival of Native languages in Shadowrun, but why wouldn't that apply as much or more to the one that's got some life left in it? So I've had Navajo culture as a bit more prominent in my depictions of Pueblo in my games.

And kzt, I figured that has as much to do with the war and the camps shuffling everybody around as everything. Hell, let's be creative. Maybe Gallup is a booming Navajo metropolis now.

[Shin]

Stop posting in this thread. Read the ToS and stick to it.

What did he say that was against the ToS?

[Acme]

He kept bringing up outside political statements, Shin, that had nothing to do with the point of the thread.

[CanRay]

Yeah, the point of this thread is to talk about how the NAN isn't getting the screen time it deserves and all that!

So, what AmerIndian Urban Brawl teams do you think there are? Combat Cycle? Desert Wars!

Especially Desert Wars! GO BLACK DEVILS!!!

[Acme]

I'd have to find my copy of Shadowbeat, I remember there were a few teams in there from different leagues in the NAN, and not just the stickball league.

[Critias]

Combat Biker, traditionally (read: Shadowbeat days), never had any NAN teams. Not in the WCCL, anyways.

Urban Brawl had the Lakota Arrows out of the Sioux turf and the Tsimshian Warriors. Every other team was CAS, UCAS, Carib League, Cal Free State, or corporate.

[kzt]

The biggest issue I have (my field being linguistics) is that the Hopi and Zuni languages seem to be stronger in canon fluff than Dene (the Navajo language), despite being functionally moribund today, whereas Dene, I mean, it's not in great shape, but it's the strongest Native language in the lower 48 and has a hundred times the speakers of the former 2. I mean, I've always assumed immersion programs with linguasoft-equipped teachers would go a long way towards explaining the revival of Native languages in Shadowrun, but why wouldn't that apply as much or more to the one that's got some life left in it? So I've had Navajo culture as a bit more prominent in my depictions of Pueblo in my games.

Yeah, we don't have consent decrees that require us to have Laguna interpreters on staff. We are required to have Navajo interpreters on staff, despite Laguna pueblo being a lot closer.

And you can't make a linguasoft for a language that the speakers won't discuss with outsiders. Which is my understanding of how the Laguna treat the Laguna language in reality, despite various claims they make. It's the official tribal language and is the only thing spoken in tribal leadership meetings, which means if you can't speak it, and can't learn it. ... Not sure how the other pueblos treat their language.

[Megu]

Yeah, we don't have consent decrees that require us to have Laguna interpreters on staff. We are required to have Navajo interpreters on staff, despite Laguna pueblo being a lot closer.

And you can't make a linguasoft for a language that the speakers won't discuss with outsiders. Which is my understanding of how the Laguna treat the Laguna language in reality, despite various claims they make. It's the official tribal language and is the only thing spoken in tribal leadership meetings, which means if you can't speak it, and can't learn it. ... Not sure how the other pueblos treat their language.

Well, I'm a little unsure of this because it's not entirely clear how a linguasoft works. My best "personal canon" explanation is that it's some kind of sim-like recording of a speaker's internal grammar of the language in their head, and if that's the case bringing in outside experts to create a linguasoft for your tribe might not be necessary in the first place. So then you get your linguasoft and restrict it to tribals only; sure, it can get hacked and pirated, but that's life in the Sixth World and most hackers aren't trying to learn Laguna when they could be stealing your credit card anyways.

That said, it may still be necessary to have outsiders involved if it's more like a program somebody composes based on data gathered from speakers the old fashioned way.

[Warlordtheft]

Well, I'm a little unsure of this because it's not entirely clear how a linguasoft works. My best "personal canon" explanation is that it's some kind of sim-like recording of a speaker's internal grammar of the language in their head, and if that's the case bringing in outside experts to create a linguasoft for your tribe might not be necessary in the first place. So then you get your linguasoft and restrict it to tribals only; sure, it can get hacked and pirated, but that's life in the Sixth World and most hackers aren't trying to learn Laguna when they could be stealing your credit card anyways.

That said, it may still be necessary to have outsiders involved if it's more like a program somebody composes based on data gathered from speakers the old fashioned way.

I've always thought of the linguasofts as translation program (would translate what is said), offer possible responses, or allow you to translate what you want and spell it phoneitcally for you.

For example a german lingua soft would hear: "Die Toilettezimmer ist da druben"
Translates in english: The bathroom is over there.
You would see this much like a movie subtitled, but in AR.

They do have issues:
Your question: Where is the bathroom? (in english)
His linguasoft says: Wo is die badeszimmer?
He responds: Wir hat kein badeszimmer heir. Wir sind ein biblioteka.
Your linguasoft says:We don't have any bathrooms. This is a library.

From the fluff, they ar good to a point, but can be quite literal. Minor differences in dialect, context (such as the german difference between toilettezimmer and badeszimmer)and such can lead to miscommunication. So much so that a real interpreter is used for serious negotiations.

PS:My apologies for the very poor german.


This translates to

[Ascalaphus]

In Gibson's Count Zero, there's a description of using a Knowsoft, which is really like the knowledge is just there in your brain, in a kind of invasive way. It makes sense, since Linguasofts and Knowsofts use DNI.

[Megu]

Part of the reason I've traditionally favored Ascal's interpretation over Warlord's is that Warlord's interpretation, where it's basically a really advanced Phrasealator, is that it doesn't explain very well how it allows you to pronounce foreign sounds, if it just tells you what to say when you think the English equivalent. Not a big deal when you're speaking German, or something with a similar sound set to English, but if you want something with a really intricate sound inventory, like Chechen, or something with really different phonotactics and allowable sound clusters, like Polish, you are going to have problems making all these different sounds.

[suoq]

if you want something with a really intricate sound inventory, like Chechen, or something with really different phonotactics and allowable sound clusters, like Polish, you are going to have problems making all these different sounds.

While this makes logical sense to me, I've heard enough Japanese and Korean music to be used to the thought that as communication increases, people become crosslingual. It started out as the songs having English refrains (which most people here have probably experienced in Japanese animation) to a complete mix of English and Korean or Japanese throughout the songs.

Examples (depending on personal music preferences):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai2jhApok0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK_Az8cDQbk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYuYqgcWDWY

Handwaving people 60 years from now having a much larger vocal phonetic library because of worldwide communication, especially entertainment, works for me. Adding a new set of phonetics for Native American languages just seems like more same thing they've been doing.

[Yerameyahu]

Just as ActiveSofts are magic, so are LinguaSofts. It just works, and it's all directly in your mind (DNI).

[Ascalaphus]

More importantly, we can project knowledge into your mind, but we're not brainwashing you in the process, honest. We couldn't possibly.

[Synner667]

More importantly, we can project knowledge into your mind, but we're not brainwashing you in the process, honest. We couldn't possibly.

The Cyerpapacy's Faith Chips - mmmm, feel that goodness...