Viable Stacking Options Options

[mmmkay]

Hey everyone,

I have a few questions about stacking certain affects and what is allowed and what isn't allowed. I have searched this forum and looked over the books many times, so I'm pretty certain that my questions will either be answered with common sense, up to the GM, or a forgotten sentence. I also put the SR4 icon up, but if there is any confusion I am using the 20th anniversary edition as my guide and follow those rules.

1) How does Reflex Recorder work? For instance with attributes, if I had 5 agility and then implanted rating 2 muscle toner, I'd have 5(7) agility. With Reflex Recorder it states that you add 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group, so does that mean that my augmented skill value is increased by 1 or my natural skill value. Here's an example of where the difference matters. If an adept took reflex recorder on a rating 6 skill, can he use improved ability twice or three times max? If it was three times, then the maximum skill rating for a metahuman would be 12: 7 (with aptitude) + 1(reflex recorder) + 4 (from improved ability). Otherwise it's maximally 10.

As in example I can mention Catlike and the Natural Athlete positive qualities mentioned in Runner's companion. Natural athlete and Catlike explicitly mention that the +1 skill rating is subject to modified skill maximums. Reflex Recorder does not mention the skill maximums.

2) It's pretty clear that you can't stack 10 glasses together all with rating 3 vision enhancement and claim that you now have +30 dice to visual perception. Or wear contacts and glasses stacking vision enhancement. Or wear glasses and have cybereyes and attempt to stack vision magnification/vision enhancement, because technology doesn't work that way. I understand that from common sense, but I didn't find a ban of this type of behavior in the book. More reasonably my question is this: if I have an adept with improved senses (vision enhancement equivalent) and vision enhancement in glasses, do they stack? I'm not sure at the moment, but there is probably a spell that gives vision enhancement if I cast that on somehow who already has it in some way or another, does it stack? If you had a shapeshifter or an infected adept, they have critter enhanced senses and can take adept enhanced senses, do those stack? If I had cybereyes and adept based vision enhancement do they stack, if I had bioware that improved my hearing does that stack with the adept equivalent, etc.?

3) It makes sense that bioware and cyberware of the same type don't stack most of the time, but is this true all of the time. Cybereyes and catlike eyes don't stack as you lose one or the other in the process (depending on the order you got them). On the other hand, olfactory booster (basically a cybernose) and enhanced pheromone receptors (bionose) could be compatible. What do you think?

4) This question isn't about stacking, but I couldn't really find a very good description of what "specifically within the game mechanics" the critter power "enhanced senses" does. For instance does enhanced hearing allow you to hear high and low frequency sounds, does it add +2 hearing dice, does it do both?

5) Also not about stacking. The allergy negative quality is well documented in the books, but I haven't read a precise description of vulnerability. I can kinda guess at it, but I'd like a book based blurb or something.

6) Also not about stacking. Is the attention coprocessor viable as an adept "improved sense"? Is bioware viable as an adept "improved sense" or only cyberware?

Sorry if this is a bit long, I tried to organize it a bit so it'd be easier to refer to and answer piecewise. I'm fluent in English, but chose not to make all my "sentences" grammatically correct, in case anyone wonders. Please and thank you for all relevant responses.

[crizh]

5) Also not about stacking. The allergy negative quality is well documented in the books, but I haven't read a precise description of vulnerability. I can kinda guess at it, but I'd like a book based blurb or something.

It should have been in RC, I believe it is scheduled to appear in Running Wild.

For the time being treat as a Severe Allergy.

[Andinel]

1) How does Reflex Recorder work? For instance with attributes, if I had 5 agility and then implanted rating 2 muscle toner, I'd have 5(7) agility. With Reflex Recorder it states that you add 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group, so does that mean that my augmented skill value is increased by 1 or my natural skill value. Here's an example of where the difference matters. If an adept took reflex recorder on a rating 6 skill, can he use improved ability twice or three times max? If it was three times, then the maximum skill rating for a metahuman would be 12: 7 (with aptitude) + 1(reflex recorder) + 4 (from improved ability). Otherwise it's maximally 10.

As in example I can mention Catlike and the Natural Athlete positive qualities mentioned in Runner's companion. Natural athlete and Catlike explicitly mention that the +1 skill rating is subject to modified skill maximums. Reflex Recorder does not mention the skill maximums.

All skills are subject to modified maximums, regardless of whether the thing that modifies the skill actually says it or not. In the case of a rating 7 skill with a reflex recorder, you can only take Improved Ability for that skill twice, since the maximum modified rating of the skill is 10 (remember, round down for this).

[McAllister]

Hey mmmkay,

I find your post to be well-organized, and based on it, I wouldn't doubt your grasp on English. No worries there.

1. I'd assume reflex recorder increased the modified skill rating; even though the bioware is attached to your brain, it isn't "natural" (thus the essence cost) and therefore affect the modified skill rating instead of the natural one. So: 7 + 1 + 2 would appear to be the maximum. You can throw in a specialization, of course, but AFAIK making huge dice pools is hard if you're focusing on increasing skills. There's just not a lot to do for them, especially for non-adepts.

2. "Any sense provided by cyberware can also be provided by this power..." I'd interpret that to mean any new sense, as opposed to vision enhancement, which is the same sense you already have, except enhanced. This would be a bummer, but there's already an adept power for seeing better: "Enhanced Perception." To answer your question more directly, I believe that all forms of vision enhancement stack; an adept wearing Vision Enhancement 3 cyberglasses who had Enhanced Perception 4 and a Hawkeye (Street Magic) spell on him with 3 hits would have a total of +10, added to Intuition + Perception. This would be disgustingly powerful, but it pretty much boils down to seeing really well so... use it how you will.

3. Reading the description of the Enhanced Pheromone Receptors, I'd be inclined to go with "no." Check it:

"While cyberware can provide implanted gas analyzers of high sensitivity to improve scent abilities, this biomod combines a boost to the neural pathways between nose and brain with a higher concentration of scent receptors, providing a more intuitive, high contrast sense of smell."

I think the point is, the bioware is better for identifying people and emotions by scent, whereas the cyberware is better for identifying the chemical composition of what you're smelling. I'd say they don't stack, though, because they're both general bonuses to perception tests. Get both if you REALLY need the effect of an olfactory sensor and the social boost as well.

4. I hate to say it, but try to use common sense. A lion's enhanced hearing is probably for sensitivity (a bonus to perception checks, since you seem to really like those) whereas a bat would be able to hear different frequencies, but not necessarily better. For a paracritter to which common sense applies, just trick out the sense with all the fixin's. That'll get close enough.

5. I can't find the word "vulnerability" in the SR4A. Maybe just replace "vulnerability" with "allergy, severe."

6. No, this is also exactly the same as "enhanced perception." If you've maxed that out already, you're just going to have to raise your magic/intuition until you can put more points into it.

Man, of all the fetishes out there, I would never have come up with "adding dice to perception tests" as one of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[mmmkay]

I suppose that is a reasonable stand-in, but shapeshifters already have a severe allergy to silver and a vulnerability to silver, which means we'd have a redundant trait. Thanks for the quick response though.

[Mäx]

All skills are subject to modified maximums, regardless of whether the thing that modifies the skill actually says it or not. In the case of a rating 7 skill with a reflex recorder, you can only take Improved Ability for that skill twice, since the maximum modified rating of the skill is 10 (remember, round down for this).

In the case of reflex recorder you right(as it creates an augmented skill rating), but if something actually raises the skill instead, then it's isn't subject to that cap but actually raises it.

[mmmkay]

Thanks for posting so quickly everyone.

1. I figured that this was the case. I was really hoping for a rating 12 skill.

2. McAllister: "When an adept buys an improved sense on a power that has multiple levels (e.g., vision enhancement or sound filter) are they purchased as levels or does the adept gain the max value for just .25 points?

They receive it at the maximum level. " - taken from http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#4

so basically you can take vision enhancement as an improved sense, so it is possible, but does that stack with a technological version?

3. McAllister: So if both noses are taken, then all the abilities would be accessible but no dice pools would stack. That definitely makes the most sense as you can't further analyze smells that have already been processed by one device with the other.

4. McAllister: Sadface, now I have to use wikipedia. There are difficulties with common sense here, because drakes are playable and have enhanced senses as a critter power. I can't really google that.

5. My point earlier was that shapeshifters would have overlap in their inherent negative qualities.

6. McAllister: It's a little different from enhanced perception, because it doesn't apply to the astral for starters. If I was arguing against myself I might make the claim that it's not a "sense provided by cyberware", even though it is cyberware and allows you to sense better. I'm not quite convinced by my own counterargument. Anything else to add?

McAllister: Lulz. I'd call it a theme, but fetish works just as well. Thanks for making a comprehensive response to my email.

[crizh]

5. My point earlier was that shapeshifters would have overlap in their inherent negative qualities.

The thing is that a Vulnerability is not an Allergy. The effect is the same but it isn't affected by Alleviate Allergy....

[mmmkay]

I apologize, that is a good point crizh.