Astral Hazing for a Magician, Seems like a bad idea, right? Options

[Draco18s]

You are the heart of a R4 Backround Count. If you stand still, it grows. There is no mention that it overlaps and flows and all that other stuff (that's fluff, not crunch). So if anything, if you were to move after aspecting, you'd only lose the outer ring, as the BC you've already aspected moves with you. The 'haze' is fluff; it is counted as being a backround count of 4, and we can work with backround counts.

Look at Geomancy, it specifies that the area being aspected is in fact an area, a location. Locations (last I checked) don't move around.

[Neraph]

Look at Geomancy, it specifies that the area being aspected is in fact an area, a location. Locations (last I checked) don't move around.

Actually, the key word that I see is "site," defined as a "domain," which is used in describing Astral Hazing as well. There's some fluff in the fluff sections for it that suggest a physical geographical area, but when it talks about just rules, all it cares for is a backround count. Which Astral Hazing is.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

In fact, Astral Hazing makes the character a domain by RAW.

[Umbra]

Looking again at the description of Astral Hazing in the Runner's Companion I noticed that it says:

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

I'm reading this to say that if you somehow aspect the domain of the Astral Hazing character to work with your style of magic, then you set the ambient mana conditons immediately back to a state of impairing your own actions. Basically, if you could use Geomancy to aspect the domain to your style of magic, it would be instantly aspected back to hazing before you can finish counting your Hits.

Augmentation has one extra line explaining the rate of the domain returning to normal (1 point per day), so the best you could hope for is 3 days after the Cyberzombie has left and you currently have a Background Count 1 Astral Hazing, you could use Geomancy to Aspect it towards your style of magic for the remainder of the final day before it finishes returning to a background count of the original location.


Filtering is really the way to go when dealing with Astral Hazing.

[Neraph]

Looking again at the description of Astral Hazing in the Runner's Companion I noticed that it says:

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

I'm reading this to say that if you somehow aspect the domain of the Astral Hazing character to work with your style of magic, then you set the ambient mana conditons immediately back to a state of impairing your own actions. Basically, if you could use Geomancy to aspect the domain to your style of magic, it would be instantly aspected back to hazing before you can finish counting your Hits.

Augmentation has one extra line explaining the rate of the domain returning to normal (1 point per day), so the best you could hope for is 3 days after the Cyberzombie has left and you currently have a Background Count 1 Astral Hazing, you could use Geomancy to Aspect it towards your style of magic for the remainder of the final day before it finishes returning to a background count of the original location.


Filtering is really the way to go when dealing with Astral Hazing.

That is an excellent point. I don't know how I missed that.

[Draco18s]

...wasn't that my original point?

[Neraph]

...wasn't that my original point?

It may have been, but you were using fluff and not crunch to back up your argument. For example, I could say that my tailored pherimones smell like candied apples, but the game only cares that my smell gives me +3 dice. It wouldn't by RAW give me a penalty to someone who hates apples, although the GM might rule it that way. In the same way, saying the descriptive text of a power works one way, yet not quoting an actual rules section of a power, is not an effectual way of persuading a reader.

[Neraph]

Augmentation has one extra line explaining the rate of the domain returning to normal (1 point per day), so the best you could hope for is 3 days after the Cyberzombie has left and you currently have a Background Count 1 Astral Hazing, you could use Geomancy to Aspect it towards your style of magic for the remainder of the final day before it finishes returning to a background count of the original location.

Actually, upon secondary reading of that myself, that is not what that line of text says. It talks about the ambient mana conditions returning to normal after the cyberzombie leaves. If the CZ has an aspected BC to onions, then that onion BC will fade when he leaves, not onions will fade from his BC.

Once a cyberzombie has left an area, the mana will shift towards its normal conditions at the rate of about 1 point per day.

So you can still Geomancy Astral Hazing, given enough time and preparation, because it is treated as a BC. The only thing that makes it different from normal BC is the fact that it follows you around and grows when you stop.

[Draco18s]

So you can still Geomancy Astral Hazing, given enough time and preparation, because it is treated as a BC. The only thing that makes it different from normal BC is the fact that it follows you around and grows when you stop.

Ahem

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, [...] this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

[Neraph]

Ahem

"Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, [...] this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

Under normal conditions, certainly. However, the Geomancy metamagic has rules that involve backround count. THAT is the point I am trying to make.

It's like saying that since you don't have a hand, you can't use things. Well, yes, certainly that is right. However, if you get a cyberlimb replacement, then that changes things, now doesn't it?

[Falconer]

Quite frankly that whole section is an utter mess. Classic case of fluff authors shouldn't write rules.

Things should have been stated such as the maximum size it can reach. And it would have been far less problematic if it functioned as a mana void modifier to the local area (can't aspect a void).


Background count itself is a little tough to put down. As background count is simply the absolute value of the ebb or void.

And whoever wrote that the hazing is 'aspected' should be shot. Unaspectable would have made this entire line of silliness disappear.


My biggest problem w/ geomancy here is you're suggesting that it can be changed... I'd argue it can't. Geomancy involves doing things to color the mana and the effect of the local environment on producing that coloring. The things which geomancy influences (ley lines, filtering etc) which normally produce the background count aren't present in this case. You have a single unadulterated source. (maybe we could do feng shui surgery on it and rearrange it's organs).

That much said... if I make a quadriplegic elf w/ this as a 6/6 contact... put it in a full VR lifestyle. Then raise up a cult around it. That count will surely expand every year and it won't move. Now if I craft the tradition correctly, it is aspected to the tradition. I did this in another thread a while back... it comes out to something like a few km a year.

Talking strict raw silliness... given a few hundred years of this... and her BGC would automatically supercede all other counts provided she doesn't leave the area and start the sequence fresh. And her area will keep growing until it encompasses the entire planet.

[Neraph]

My biggest problem w/ geomancy here is you're suggesting that it can be changed... I'd argue it can't. Geomancy involves doing things to color the mana and the effect of the local environment on producing that coloring. The things which geomancy influences (ley lines, filtering etc) which normally produce the background count aren't present in this case. You have a single unadulterated source. (maybe we could do feng shui surgery on it and rearrange it's organs).

That's what I've been saying; you'd have to do some body modifications, like piercing, branding, tattooing, and all of it would have to match your tradition. Refer to my paragraphical story a few posts ago.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's what I've been saying; you'd have to do some body modifications, like piercing, branding, tattooing, and all of it would have to match your tradition. Refer to my paragraphical story a few posts ago.

However, You are still trying to take a Negative Quality and make it into a Positive Quality... I call foul...

[Draco18s]

That much said... if I make a quadriplegic elf w/ this as a 6/6 contact... put it in a full VR lifestyle. Then raise up a cult around it. That count will surely expand every year and it won't move. Now if I craft the tradition correctly, it is aspected to the tradition. I did this in another thread a while back... it comes out to something like a few km a year.

At 1 mile radius a month...
(See earlier post)

12 years to reach Portland, if the elf is in Seattle
80 years to reach LA.
200 years to reach New York.
400 years to reach London.
1037 years to cover the whole world, assuming the haze expands along the surface of the planet. 660 if we assume it travels through the ground as well (above numbers, such as London, would be impacted due to the distance across the sphere being longer than the chord distance).
19485 years to "touch" the moon (estimate assuming the closest distance the moon is to earth, and counting from those two closest points).

[Falconer]

Hence why I said it'd require some serious feng shui rearranging your internal organs.

No mere cosmetic detailing for you... said reorganization is probably fatal btw.

Also, your idea isn't new, search... back when it was first published, I pointed out this exact thing as an explicit abuse of a negative quality.

[Neraph]

Ok, so we have 2 cases of people saying "no because its too powerful" as opposed to "no because of sound rules-based arguments."

For example, just because this is possible doesn't mean the person is immune to magic. Lone Star's magic division would jump on this "magical terrorism" in a heartbeat. Rival mages attempting to capture the person in question, keep them sedated, and use their aura. Drones.

There are in-game responses that don't make this break the game.

No mere cosmetic detailing for you... said reorganization is probably fatal btw.

I highly doubt that, since, first off, if just building a teepee on a field is enough, than a simple tattoo is enough for your body, and two, that if people can have their brain removed from their body and survive, I think the doctors would be able to work rearranging some organs around as well.

[Draco18s]

Ok, so we have 2 cases of people saying "no because its too powerful" as opposed to "no because of sound rules-based arguments."

We've already quoted the only slightly related rules that there are on this subject, and you think that a few (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) worth of tatoos and body piercings are enough to turn a highly detrimental flaw ("I'm a magician who has an effective 0 or 1 magic, but fortunately, I'm otherwise immune to spells") into the outright most over powered positive quality to ever exist ("I am a magician who has an effective magic that rivals great dragons, and I'm still immune to everyone else's magic").

Cost to do this? 10 karma (or 1 third the cost to buy off the flaw).

[Neraph]

Cost to do this? 10 karma (or 1 third the cost to buy off the flaw).

Acutally, it's 29 karma for initiating twice, and another 75 karma, or the cost of raising a 6 Magic to an 8. So for a total of 99 karma, or over three times the cost of buying off the negative quality, you can turn it into a positive quality. Because remember, you have to be able to "cast" Force 8 Ritual spells in order to do the ritual at all, and assuming you're starting at a Magic 6, you'd need to Initiate twice and raise your magic stat to an 8, because until you geomance the domain your Magic rating is at -4.

Not to mention the time and resources in-game.

So, in short, yes, I think that for paying more than three times the cost of just removing a negative quality you can actually do something to make it beneficial.

EDIT: That's assuming you don't have help Initiating, otherwise the cost might drop a whole 7 points or so, down to 92.

[Draco18s]

Because remember, you have to be able to "cast" Force 8 Ritual spells in order to do the ritual at all

Point to where it says you must be capable of casting a force 8 spell. Geomancy says, "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC." I see no mention of needing to have magic high enough to actually cast the spell. It's treated as a force 8 spell, it isn't a force 8 spell.

EDIT: That's assuming you don't have help Initiating, otherwise the cost might drop a whole 7 points or so, down to 92.

And add 5 for becoming part of a magical group. 97.

[Neraph]

Point to where it says you must be capable of casting a force 8 spell. Geomancy says, "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC." I see no mention of needing to have magic high enough to actually cast the spell. It's treated as a force 8 spell, it isn't a force 8 spell.

If you treat it as casting a F8 spell, then you'd need a magic of at least 4 to be allowed to effectively overcast the F8 "spell". Otherwise, what does "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC" mean?

And add 5 for becoming part of a magical group. 97.

For one, that would only make it slightly less difficult, if you lose 7 points of requirement but gain 5, you'd end up 2 less. But I was referring to ordeals. Sorry about not being clear about it.

For example, take a Geasa and a Sacrifice, and initiating your 2 points becomes easier. You could also say that that one point of Sacrifice is directly related to the Geomantic re-arranging of the player's character. Or make them take two Sacrifices in order to represent it.

But basically, it comes down to using Geomancy to aspect Astral Hazing into a bonus takes a lot more work than just buying it off.

It seems like you're starting to argue for argument's sake. First you don't want to be able to geomancy at all, and now you're arguing about the process to actually do it.

[Draco18s]

If you treat it as casting a F8 spell, then you'd need a magic of at least 4 to be allowed to effectively overcast the F8 "spell". Otherwise, what does "treat the geomantic ritual as if she were casting a spell with Force equal to twice the BC" mean?

Other people can help.

Limit on how many people can be involved.

Here's a better idea (before I admit that you're right), and one that's far more karma friendly:

Get someone else to aspect your domain. Any rules against that? Any geomancer can do it....

[Neraph]

Here's a better idea (before I admit that you're right)

It'll only hurt for a second.

Get someone else to aspect your domain. Any rules against that? Any geomancer can do it....

You could, but if you do it yourself, and prove why you can with the rules (as I have), your GM can't just do something like "You don't find anyone to help you geomance your Astral Hazing." For self-reliance, mostly. And because if you foot the bill yourself, your GM is more willing to go through with it.

Also, the geomancer in question would have to be the same tradition as yourself, otherwise it'd be worse than just having Astral Hazing. Imagine a shaman getting a mage to geomance hims AH, only to find out that it only works with Hermetics now. Now nearly every run that involves wage-mages will turn into a slaughterfest against the poor guy.

[thearistocrat]

Other people can help.

Limit on how many people can be involved.

Here's a better idea (before I admit that you're right), and one that's far more karma friendly:

Get someone else to aspect your domain. Any rules against that? Any geomancer can do it....

How would someone else be able to aspect your own personal domain for you? That strikes me as a rule-bending a bit too far for many GMs.

[Draco18s]

How would someone else be able to aspect your own personal domain for you? That strikes me as a rule-bending a bit too far for many GMs.

Why not? Imagine sitting down in one place for a month and covering a 1 mile diameter area of a city. I bet every corp that has mages would get pissed off REAL fast and try and aspect the domain encroaching on their building so it doesn't effect them.

If they can do it, then why couldn't you hire someone to do it for you?

Heck, you might even be able to get your chummer over there to do it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive... if you want to go that route... buy off the negative quality, initiate a few times and get Geomancy, and then aspect yourself a positive BC aftarwards... you should not EVER be able to do so while the negative quality is in place...

Want to have a positive benefit from BC, craft it yourself with Geomancy, but don't buy the negative quality and then "aspect" it to a positivbe bonus... To this, I call foul...

Of Course... that is my 2 nuyen, but really, does this not smack anyone else as powergaming at its finest?