Miniguns, Impossible to fire? Options

[Volt875]

Ok so I picked up the Arsenal book today and I was looking through it and it talks about making machine guns into mini-guns. But in this little thing it says you take a -14 to your attack with it. Now unless I misread something if a modifier makes you have 0 dice to roll you auto fail right? Meaning you'd have to up your Agi to 9 (cause unless I read it wrong Skills max out at 6 right?) just to have 1 die to fire with.

This doesn't seem right. Am I missing something crucial here?

[DWC]

There are several solutions to your problem.

1) Mount it on a vehicle, where the recoil is negated.

2) Use it in suppressive fire, where the recoil is cancelled out, and you gain a boost to damage from the volume of fire.

3) Load up on recoil compensation from a mix of strength, a gyromount, electronic firing, and gas venting.

4) Fire your first long burst at your first target, your second long burst at your next target, then accept that the last short burst is going into the landscape. In each case, recoil only applies for the rounds you've fired up to that point, so you get a long burst at -5, a second long at -11, and you give up on the last burst completely. Bear in mind that each of those gets reduced by available recoil compensation.

Also, remember that it's a minigun. It's a vehicle mounted weapon for a reason. If shouldn't be a problem that a normal human can't walk around firing one like a machine pistol.

[TBRMInsanity]

The point of using a machine gun as a mini-gun would be to provide suppressive fire. Your right though that the safest place to be once this weapons starts firing is right in front of it (reminds me of the AK).

[Bignaffer]

i had a character once that occationally used one on a gyro mount. that helps a lot.

[Volt875]

Oh ok that was my miss understanding. I thought it was just a straight out -14. Didn't think it was from recoil.

[Heath Robinson]

Hmm? Only -14? Are you forgetting to double uncompensated recoil? Miniguns are still Heavy Weapons.

[Medicineman]

Double uncompensated Recoil
Its quite possible to negate 10-12 Points Recoil (with Gyromount,Gasvents,modifiers,STR,etc)
so you only have to deal with -4 to -8 Dice

with uncompensated Dance
Medicineman

[TeknoDragon]

Regarding the difficulty to fire a minigun off-hand (as opposed to vehicle mounted or with special equipment): I recall commentary on the original Predator movie, where Jesse Ventura's character was letting fly with the minigun. They used cold-loaded blanks (that is, with a smaller-than-normal amount of powder), and the thing apparently still wanted to pull out of line. Not surprised, as it combines hanging on to a gyroscope with a lot of mass, and recoil from quite a few blanks being fired. I could see an augmented person (especially a Troll) able to control one at full power, though.

[Doc Byte]

One could make up a metal storm minigun. Modding it with electronic firing one could fire all barrels at the same time without any recoil (first bullet). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DireRadiant]

Hand held mini guns are hard to aim. Fact.

[Stahlseele]

So, it looks like this has actually become EASIER with SR4 . . in SR3 every point of uncompensated Recoil was doubled and that DIRECTLY added to yout Target-Number.

[Neraph]

One could make up a metal storm minigun. Modding it with electronic firing one could fire all barrels at the same time without any recoil (first bullet). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Theoretically, that would also negate the 1-action required for the barrel to start spinning. This has been debated before.

Using the optional rule for Str giving RC, and some other tricks, we can nearly (or completely) negate the recoil on a minigun. Or mount it on a vehicle.

But seriosly, if you're just going to mount it, go for broke: the GE Vigilant Autocannon (light or heavy). Same thing only bigger.

[TBRMInsanity]

Regarding the difficulty to fire a minigun off-hand (as opposed to vehicle mounted or with special equipment): I recall commentary on the original Predator movie, where Jesse Ventura's character was letting fly with the minigun. They used cold-loaded blanks (that is, with a smaller-than-normal amount of powder), and the thing apparently still wanted to pull out of line. Not surprised, as it combines hanging on to a gyroscope with a lot of mass, and recoil from quite a few blanks being fired. I could see an augmented person (especially a Troll) able to control one at full power, though.

It was an argument like this (granted it was about a Troll being able to fire a HMG as a personal weapon) that caused me to take a Hiatus from Dumpshock. For the record I think that MMGs and HMGs are strictly vehicle weapons (I consider miniguns to be LMGs) and they should stay that way (I don't care to hear any arguments about Trolls being strong enough to lift and use a MMG or HMG as a personal weapon, I'm just going to get pissed off).

That being said I think that miniguns make highly effective suppressive fire weapons (as they are intended to be). Why are you worried that you can't aim at a single target when you have the ability to cover an entire area with bullets? Each personal weapon has its purpose and that is what it is best at.

[TBRMInsanity]

Using the optional rule for Str giving RC, and some other tricks, we can nearly (or completely) negate the recoil on a minigun. Or mount it on a vehicle.

I strongly disagree with this but as you said it is an optional rule. I think it would make more sense to use Body instead of Str and take a the penalty of firing from the hip. That being said if the recoil of the weapon is greater then your body (after reduction from a gyroscope of course) then you should also be forced to roll a knockdown test as the weapon is going to put you on your butt.

[TeknoDragon]

It was an argument like this (granted it was about a Troll being able to fire a HMG as a personal weapon) that caused me to take a Hiatus from Dumpshock. For the record I think that MMGs and HMGs are strictly vehicle weapons (I consider miniguns to be LMGs) and they should stay that way (I don't care to hear any arguments about Trolls being strong enough to lift and use a MMG or HMG as a personal weapon, I'm just going to get pissed off).

That being said I think that miniguns make highly effective suppressive fire weapons (as they are intended to be). Why are you worried that you can't aim at a single target when you have the ability to cover an entire area with bullets? Each personal weapon has its purpose and that is what it is best at.

On consideration, you've got some good points.
"What happened to Don's arm?"
"He fired the minigun offhand. Doc says the breaks will heal in a month, and he's lucky at that."
"Wait... where's the van?"
"Don fired the minigun offhand..."

[Stahlseele]

It was an argument like this (granted it was about a Troll being able to fire a HMG as a personal weapon) that caused me to take a Hiatus from Dumpshock. For the record I think that MMGs and HMGs are strictly vehicle weapons (I consider miniguns to be LMGs) and they should stay that way (I don't care to hear any arguments about Trolls being strong enough to lift and use a MMG or HMG as a personal weapon, I'm just going to get pissed off).

That being said I think that miniguns make highly effective suppressive fire weapons (as they are intended to be). Why are you worried that you can't aim at a single target when you have the ability to cover an entire area with bullets? Each personal weapon has its purpose and that is what it is best at.

What about a Centaur or a Drake? (don't hurt me please)
Gives DEATH FROM ABOVE a whole new meaning neh?

[CodeBreaker]

Drake + Full Auto Modded Vigorous Assault Cannon with Electronic Firing and Trigger Removal (No thumbs) = Fun Times? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Zaranthan]

You forgot to dikote it.

[Stahlseele]

And then possess it with your ally-spirit so you can has hot sex0rz with it.

[DWC]

Drake + Full Auto Modded Vigorous Assault Cannon with Electronic Firing and Trigger Removal (No thumbs) = Fun Times? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Fun times. For 1 IP. Drum feeds are only available for assault rifles and SMGs, so you're stuck with 15 rounds from the extended magazine. And you don't have to be a drake. You just have to be a troll in military armor with gyromount arms.

[Stahlseele]

Recoil Compensation from 2 Gyro Arms does not accumulate i think. Not sure though.
And fuck Drum-Mag, BELT-FEED is where it's at ^^

[CodeBreaker]

Fun times. For 1 IP. Drum feeds are only available for assault rifles and SMGs, so you're stuck with 15 rounds from the extended magazine. And you don't have to be a drake. You just have to be a troll in military armor with gyromount arms.

What, Dragons can't ram a new clip into a gun? They might not have thumbs but as far as I am aware they still have fairly dextrous hands.

And sure, you can do it with a Troll. But can a Troll do it from 1K in the Air? (Without a Helo)


Hmm... Drake in Dragon Form + Full Ruthiem Poly suit + Sniper Rifle = Assassin in the Skies!

[Rasumichin]

It was an argument like this (granted it was about a Troll being able to fire a HMG as a personal weapon) that caused me to take a Hiatus from Dumpshock. For the record I think that MMGs and HMGs are strictly vehicle weapons (I consider miniguns to be LMGs) and they should stay that way (I don't care to hear any arguments about Trolls being strong enough to lift and use a MMG or HMG as a personal weapon, I'm just going to get pissed off).

That being said I think that miniguns make highly effective suppressive fire weapons (as they are intended to be). Why are you worried that you can't aim at a single target when you have the ability to cover an entire area with bullets? Each personal weapon has its purpose and that is what it is best at.

We are talking about a game where you can take down armed helicopters with friggin' bows.
BOWS!!!
This officially puts Shadowrun rules in the realm of RamboII level insanity (or awesomenes, depending on your perspective).
Which is, IMHO, where a game about orks with rocket launchers (or mutated elven wizard ninja cyberzombies with lasers fighting giant cockroach vampires) should be as far as realism is concerned.

And yes, if you use the optional rules for Recoil Compensation through Strenght, it is absolutely possible for a troll with a gyromount and a couple of weapon mods to fire a minigun without any recoil at all.
As long as the troll is stronger than an average elephant, of course (which is, by RAW, also indeed possible with some cyber- or bioware- you don't even have to be a ghoul, cyberzombie or being posessed by a Guardian Spirit along with being a troll in the first place, even though this would all help a lot).
Them's the rules.
Just utilize the following components as you like :

-Gyromount harness (6 points RC)
-Electronic Firing (1 point RC, 2 slots)
-Heavy Barrel (1 point RC, 3 slots)
-Gas Vent3 (external accesorry, 3 points RC)
-STR of at least 14 for the remaining 3 points.

Sorry to piss you off, BTW.
I just wanted to add how RAW handles man-portable miniguns.
If you don't like the idea, just leave out the optional rule for Recoil Compensation through Strenght and people would have to deal with -6 DPs even under maximum Recoil Compensation- which should be enough to let them use miniguns only for suppressive fire.

[DWC]

Recoil Compensation from 2 Gyro Arms does not accumulate i think. Not sure though.
And fuck Drum-Mag, BELT-FEED is where it's at ^^

It doesn't need to. 3 from the gas vent, 3 from the gyo, 1 from electronic firing, 3 from Strength, and 1 from the foregrip means you can go high velocity, for when you really need to rock and roll all night AND party every day. Unfortunately, Arsenal doesn't include a Belt Feed modification. Really, it should, if only for use in vehicle mounted weapons, but those are the breaks.

[Stahlseele]

WHAT? NO BELT-FEED? I CALL SHENANIGANS! <.<
Also, i forget this again and again: Can Miniguns be modified for high velocity?