Ok so I picked up the Arsenal book today and I was looking through it and it talks about making machine guns into mini-guns. But in this little thing it says you take a -14 to your attack with it. Now unless I misread something if a modifier makes you have 0 dice to roll you auto fail right? Meaning you'd have to up your Agi to 9 (cause unless I read it wrong Skills max out at 6 right?) just to have 1 die to fire with.

This doesn't seem right. Am I missing something crucial here?

There are several solutions to your problem.

1) Mount it on a vehicle, where the recoil is negated.

2) Use it in suppressive fire, where the recoil is cancelled out, and you gain a boost to damage from the volume of fire.

3) Load up on recoil compensation from a mix of strength, a gyromount, electronic firing, and gas venting.

4) Fire your first long burst at your first target, your second long burst at your next target, then accept that the last short burst is going into the landscape. In each case, recoil only applies for the rounds you've fired up to that point, so you get a long burst at -5, a second long at -11, and you give up on the last burst completely. Bear in mind that each of those gets reduced by available recoil compensation.

Also, remember that it's a minigun. It's a vehicle mounted weapon for a reason. If shouldn't be a problem that a normal human can't walk around firing one like a machine pistol.

The point of using a machine gun as a mini-gun would be to provide suppressive fire. Your right though that the safest place to be once this weapons starts firing is right in front of it (reminds me of the AK).

i had a character once that occationally used one on a gyro mount. that helps a lot.

Oh ok that was my miss understanding. I thought it was just a straight out -14. Didn't think it was from recoil.

Hmm? Only -14? Are you forgetting to double uncompensated recoil? Miniguns are still Heavy Weapons.

Double uncompensated Recoil
Its quite possible to negate 10-12 Points Recoil (with Gyromount,Gasvents,modifiers,STR,etc)
so you only have to deal with -4 to -8 Dice

with uncompensated Dance
Medicineman

Regarding the difficulty to fire a minigun off-hand (as opposed to vehicle mounted or with special equipment): I recall commentary on the original Predator movie, where Jesse Ventura's character was letting fly with the minigun. They used cold-loaded blanks (that is, with a smaller-than-normal amount of powder), and the thing apparently still wanted to pull out of line. Not surprised, as it combines hanging on to a gyroscope with a lot of mass, and recoil from quite a few blanks being fired. I could see an augmented person (especially a Troll) able to control one at full power, though.

One could make up a metal storm minigun. Modding it with electronic firing one could fire all barrels at the same time without any recoil (first bullet).

Hand held mini guns are hard to aim. Fact.

So, it looks like this has actually become EASIER with SR4 . . in SR3 every point of uncompensated Recoil was doubled and that DIRECTLY added to yout Target-Number.

Theoretically, that would also negate the 1-action required for the barrel to start spinning. This has been debated before.

Using the optional rule for Str giving RC, and some other tricks, we can nearly (or completely) negate the recoil on a minigun. Or mount it on a vehicle.

But seriosly, if you're just going to mount it, go for broke: the GE Vigilant Autocannon (light or heavy). Same thing only bigger.

It was an argument like this (granted it was about a Troll being able to fire a HMG as a personal weapon) that caused me to take a Hiatus from Dumpshock. For the record I think that MMGs and HMGs are strictly vehicle weapons (I consider miniguns to be LMGs) and they should stay that way (I don't care to hear any arguments about Trolls being strong enough to lift and use a MMG or HMG as a personal weapon, I'm just going to get pissed off).

That being said I think that miniguns make highly effective suppressive fire weapons (as they are intended to be). Why are you worried that you can't aim at a single target when you have the ability to cover an entire area with bullets? Each personal weapon has its purpose and that is what it is best at.

I strongly disagree with this but as you said it is an optional rule. I think it would make more sense to use Body instead of Str and take a the penalty of firing from the hip. That being said if the recoil of the weapon is greater then your body (after reduction from a gyroscope of course) then you should also be forced to roll a knockdown test as the weapon is going to put you on your butt.

On consideration, you've got some good points.
"What happened to Don's arm?"
"He fired the minigun offhand. Doc says the breaks will heal in a month, and he's lucky at that."
"Wait... where's the van?"
"Don fired the minigun offhand..."

What about a Centaur or a Drake? (don't hurt me please)
Gives DEATH FROM ABOVE a whole new meaning neh?

Drake + Full Auto Modded Vigorous Assault Cannon with Electronic Firing and Trigger Removal (No thumbs) = Fun Times?

You forgot to dikote it.

And then possess it with your ally-spirit so you can has hot sex0rz with it.

Fun times. For 1 IP. Drum feeds are only available for assault rifles and SMGs, so you're stuck with 15 rounds from the extended magazine. And you don't have to be a drake. You just have to be a troll in military armor with gyromount arms.

Recoil Compensation from 2 Gyro Arms does not accumulate i think. Not sure though.
And fuck Drum-Mag, BELT-FEED is where it's at ^^

What, Dragons can't ram a new clip into a gun? They might not have thumbs but as far as I am aware they still have fairly dextrous hands.

And sure, you can do it with a Troll. But can a Troll do it from 1K in the Air? (Without a Helo)


Hmm... Drake in Dragon Form + Full Ruthiem Poly suit + Sniper Rifle = Assassin in the Skies!

We are talking about a game where you can take down armed helicopters with friggin' bows.
BOWS!!!
This officially puts Shadowrun rules in the realm of RamboII level insanity (or awesomenes, depending on your perspective).
Which is, IMHO, where a game about orks with rocket launchers (or mutated elven wizard ninja cyberzombies with lasers fighting giant cockroach vampires) should be as far as realism is concerned.

And yes, if you use the optional rules for Recoil Compensation through Strenght, it is absolutely possible for a troll with a gyromount and a couple of weapon mods to fire a minigun without any recoil at all.
As long as the troll is stronger than an average elephant, of course (which is, by RAW, also indeed possible with some cyber- or bioware- you don't even have to be a ghoul, cyberzombie or being posessed by a Guardian Spirit along with being a troll in the first place, even though this would all help a lot).
Them's the rules.
Just utilize the following components as you like :

-Gyromount harness (6 points RC)
-Electronic Firing (1 point RC, 2 slots)
-Heavy Barrel (1 point RC, 3 slots)
-Gas Vent3 (external accesorry, 3 points RC)
-STR of at least 14 for the remaining 3 points.

Sorry to piss you off, BTW.
I just wanted to add how RAW handles man-portable miniguns.
If you don't like the idea, just leave out the optional rule for Recoil Compensation through Strenght and people would have to deal with -6 DPs even under maximum Recoil Compensation- which should be enough to let them use miniguns only for suppressive fire.

It doesn't need to. 3 from the gas vent, 3 from the gyo, 1 from electronic firing, 3 from Strength, and 1 from the foregrip means you can go high velocity, for when you really need to rock and roll all night AND party every day. Unfortunately, Arsenal doesn't include a Belt Feed modification. Really, it should, if only for use in vehicle mounted weapons, but those are the breaks.

WHAT? NO BELT-FEED? I CALL SHENANIGANS! <.<
Also, i forget this again and again: Can Miniguns be modified for high velocity?

Only submachine guns and assault
rifles can be constructed as high-velocity weapons.

The MiniGun is a LMG, so no.

You kinda need a thumb to grip things...



An eastern drake could do it, if you could find a custom fitted ruthiem poly suit.

Not really, I mean you can just wrap your claws about it. And according to Dragons of the Sixth World all of a Western Dragons fingers on its forepaws are opposable (Even if Eastern Dragons are the only ones with actual thumbs). The gun would have to be a custom job, and it would take some getting used to, but it should be possible. And if that does not work just have the weapon directly attached to its forearm.

And yeah, the Poly suit would also have to be a custom job. You would also have to have some way of getting it on when you are already in Dragon form, but thats what Drones are for!

(P.S, I have found the image that lead me to believe Western Dragons had thumbs! Hurrah. Page 177 of Dragons of the Sixth World shows a Western with what looks like thumbs. Been wondering how I got it in my head that they did)

I am STILL saying that THAT is a Drake, not an actual Western Dragon . .
That thing ain't much bigger than the Troll next to him . . please tell me even Joung Western Dragons(is there such a thing?) are bigger than that <.<
But fuck yeah, combat gear on a dragon ^^
Forearm-System to keep . . is that an Assault-Cannon? in place so it can be used in that Form and even in flight without too much trouble ^^

According to the book an average Western is 3 metres at the shoulder standing, and a Troll is what, 2? So I guess that would be about right for size. But then you have 17 metres of length behind that.

Drakes are quite small according the book as well, about the height of a Human, and only three metres in length. Honestly I agree, I think of dragons as being a bit bigger. The picture of Peri on 169 is about right in my head for one. Oh, and that one is the best picture of a Dragon ever. Also, is the story about how Peri got to where he is a direct run off of what happened at the end of Mercurial? Peri bawwing his eyes out because he lost his bestest best friend?

Shoulder HEight being the height of their 4 shoulders when on all 4 . . THAT i can live with . .

False. Octopi grip things just fine. You can also grip things just using the four fingers on your hand, if you're gripping something cylindrical. The grip isn't as firm without the thumb, but it's doable, especially if the fingers are long enough to wrap all the way around the object.

Or if you have . . you know claws or something . .

Ok, I am having trouble visualising this, and hoping some more enlightened being can put it into easier means. Each of a Westerns Foreclaws are opposable. How does that work? Each finger(claw) tip being able to touch the claw tip. The closest animal I can find would be the Koala who has two opposable fingers along with the other normal ones.

Would each claw act as a thumb, in that it can grip things with ease like ours enables us too?

Double Post.

Imagine the claws being arranged like a four-pointed star reaching out from the base of the forearm.
Every claw is halfway opposed to two other claws (in the same way as our thumbs) and fully opposed to the one remaining claw.
So the whole foreclaw could wrap around an object not only two ways as a human hand (4 fingers gripping from one direction, the thumb gripping from the opposite direction), but up to four ways (one claw gripping from the left, one from the right, one from the top and one from the bottom), if the design of the object would allow for such handling.
Even more combinations may be possible if each of the claws can be turned around by 90 degrees in the same way as a human thumb (to imagine what i'm saying, simply point your thumb upwards in a "thumbs up" gesture and move it downwards in the same position as far as you can).

Ah. Gotcha.

Or...you know...you could just follow the rules in RC about how only Eastern Drakes can operate guns.

Which has no bearing on your response to CodeBreaker's post, or my response to yours. He was specifically talking about Dragons, and you claimed that opposable thumbs were a requirement for gripping.

Sure, you could do that!

Fine, directly attaching the gun onto the forearm it is.

And nah Zurai, he is right. I was mainly talking about a Drake character being able to do it. Still looks like a normal Western Dragon can do it, just Drakes cannot. And unless you're GM is really, reeeaaally leniant I doubt he will let you play a straight out Adult Western Dragon.

Ahhhh! Weapon possession! Another point I must add to the Possession Spirits Overpowered thread!

I think that falls under "cyberware" and the following rule about "no cyber for dracoforms."

Unless you're using duct-tape or something. In which case the recoil is going to be hell* and the drake wouldn't be able to use his full agility to aim the thing.

*Rip the gun off the arm, or the arm off the drake, depending.

Nope, not cyberware. And nope, not Duct Tape. More like a fitted Gyromount, all external from the Drakes body and fitted to the arm with metal bands and such. Like an Exo-Skeleton. But yeah, the Recoil would still be really, really high. But it is possible!

TBR, I'm suprised that it pisses you off so much. A strong but far from unique human can hold and fire a LMG. (Though what many of us think of as LMG are actually squad support weapons, or something along those lines I believe.) Is it really so far out there (to the extent that it would piss you off) that a individual who is twice as strong as a human and much bulkier (don't know off the top of my head how human vs. troll mass weighs in) would be able to do the same thing with a Browning .50? (And that's without taking "future tech" into account.) It's incredibly unpleasant but a human can fire .50 weapons from the shoulder. I just don't think it's out there that a troll could do so on full auto.

The only mini-gun available is a LMG. It spits bullets like no ones business, but trolls are bulky enough not to get knocked over, and strong enough to keep them fairly on target.

(I thought there was a rule where your firearm could make you roll a knockdown check when fired. Hmm.)

Sigh...
I never said that a minigun wasn't a LMG or that I was against it as a personal weapon (ie a weapon that can be carried and used by a metahuman). I said that the role of a minigun is for squad support (ie suppressive fire) and as such trying to fit it into the role of say an automatic rifle is silly. Accept a weapon's role on the battlefield and use it effectively in that possition.


I don't want to derail the discussion but I really think that the use of an LMG is idiotic in a run. This is mainly because I feel a successful 0 body count mission is a perfect mission. If you are going into a run with a LMG/grenade launcher/autocannon/missle launcher/any other highly offensive weapon, your going into the run with the wrong mindset (ie your either looking for or expecting to get into a fight).

Allways a pleasure O.o

Take two random Orks and you are more or less at one Troll.
Also, let him not like it. It's his thing. Not everybody has to be as completely over the top as i am for example.
Yeah, i think it's silly too, to moan about such stuff in which an Ork with an artificial Arm could be punching Insect-Spirits to death.
But it's his RIGHT to not like it. Just as it's my right to not like the Fact that Trolls are supposed to be dumb and stupid brutes.
That Elves are supposed to be these super cool sleek elite killer race. Or that Dwarves are supposed to be Slow.

Fair enough TBR. I thought your objection was one of physics, not a "your taking what on a subtle run?" (Aka: you need really big shadows for an assault cannon not to stick out of it.)

Gas vents can be applied on a per barrel basis by RAW....

- J.

*sigh*
no, i had that idea months ago.
even with under barrel weights.
doesn't work like that it seems.