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Rasumichin
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 30 2009, 09:16 PM) *
Ahhhh! Weapon possession! Another point I must add to the Possession Spirits Overpowered thread!


"Look master! I'm inside the gun! Now i...can shoot...which i could also do while posessing your genespliced, cybered-up pet gorilla-alligator wielding a gauss rifle...only now, i can't even move...unless it's one of those drone-guns...which kinda suck compared to real drones...but hey, the gun now has hardened armor! That's overpowered!"

No, weapon posession clearly isn't the sure path to world domination.
Not even if it's a minigun fired from the hip of a drake in power armor.
DuctShuiTengu
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jul 31 2009, 12:16 AM) *
Gas vents can be applied on a per barrel basis by RAW.... devil.gif

- J.

Perhaps. However, Gas Vents are explicitly forbidden from stacking with other gas vents. Which means that while you could probably stick 6 gas vents on a minigun, you're still only getting 1 gas vent worth of recoil comp.
Kerenshara
Holy drek.

I just had a thought...

The metamagic power Adept Centering allows an adept to overcome dice penalties to an action... recoil's a penalty, right?

A Grade 6 Initiate physical adept troll with a minigun on a gyroharness with all the other cheezy goodness... and that magical bonus isn't a recoil bonus, so it stacks with everything...

Oh...
Summerstorm
Hm... Centering (bad poetry)

Magnus the Minigun-Troll:
"Here i stand
(buddabudda)
gun in hand
(buddabudda)
scorching the land
(buddabudda)
... i am grand?)

Hm.. free action: centering... complex: fullauto fire... hm seems legit. (holy crap)

Oh EDIT: But it the penalty is double uncompensated recoil. So he would need 2 grades per recoil from a minigun. (Since he isn't taking down the recoil, but the dice) So he better have that gyromount and stuff... (Should an Minigun really take the gas vent?)
Rasumichin
Yes, Grade 6 Initiates with Adept Centering can do some insane things...such as shooting at a completely hidden target without Penalties, ignoring massive injuries or...well, compensating a lot of recoil.
Basically, at Initiate Grade 14, an Adept could fire a minigun without any Recoil Compensation without any Penalties...good that there aren't that many Grade 14 Initiates around, right?

That's the thing about Metamagics offering effects completely dependent on initiate Grade...once you're a high-level Initiate, they start doing crazy things.
CodeBreaker
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Jul 31 2009, 01:14 AM) *
Yes, Grade 6 Initiates with Adept Centering can do some insane things...such as shooting at a completely hidden target without Penalties, ignoring massive injuries or...well, compensating a lot of recoil.
Basically, at Initiate Grade 14, an Adept could fire a minigun without any Recoil Compensation without any Penalties...good that there aren't that many Grade 14 Initiates around, right?

That's the thing about Metamagics offering effects completely dependent on initiate Grade...once you're a high-level Initiate, they start doing crazy things.


Basically, Harlequin can do some crazy ass stuff. Strange that grinbig.gif
HappyDaze
A non-Initiate adept with Heightened Concentration (Digital Grimoire) can ignore up to 6 points of recoil after spending a complex action to prepare...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Actually I would make you purchase Barrel modifications 6 times (for a single bonus mind you) to compensate for ALL 6 barrels... if you have unmatched barrels, then no bonus from the modification at all...
Omenowl
I always viewed a minigun for suppressive fire or to fire a wide burst rather than a narrow burst.
Neraph
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Jul 30 2009, 12:35 PM) *
It was an argument like this (granted it was about a Troll being able to fire a HMG as a personal weapon) that caused me to take a Hiatus from Dumpshock. For the record I think that MMGs and HMGs are strictly vehicle weapons (I consider miniguns to be LMGs) and they should stay that way (I don't care to hear any arguments about Trolls being strong enough to lift and use a MMG or HMG as a personal weapon, I'm just going to get pissed off).

That being said I think that miniguns make highly effective suppressive fire weapons (as they are intended to be). Why are you worried that you can't aim at a single target when you have the ability to cover an entire area with bullets? Each personal weapon has its purpose and that is what it is best at.

I'm sorry sir, but Light Machine guns are LMGs, and Miniguns are a special modification of machine guns; they are not one and the same. In the same way, all dolphines are whales, but not all whales are dolphines.

Also, MMGs and HMGs are obviously not vehicle-only weapons, otherwise they would be listed as Main Weapons and not as actual weapons meant for player use.

And, to cinch this discussion, link.
pbangarth
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 30 2009, 08:52 PM) *
A non-Initiate adept with Heightened Concentration (Digital Grimoire) can ignore up to 6 points of recoil after spending a complex action to prepare...


A GM reading the description of Heightened Concentration would likely take the following to mean it could compensate all of a recoil of up to Magic points, but not part of a recoil larger than that.

QUOTE (Digital Grimoire page 18)
Heightened Concentration
Cost: 1
The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her
task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single
situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic
attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and
maybe be combined with the Adept Centering metamagic.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 30 2009, 11:11 PM) *
I'm sorry sir, but Light Machine guns are LMGs, and Miniguns are a special modification of machine guns; they are not one and the same. In the same way, all dolphines are whales, but not all whales are dolphines.

Also, MMGs and HMGs are obviously not vehicle-only weapons, otherwise they would be listed as Main Weapons and not as actual weapons meant for player use.

And, to cinch this discussion, link.

Oh... my... gods...

I REALLY hope his CO doesn't figure out who he is. I can just hear it now.

On the other hand, there's a part of that video clip that absoluterly appeals to the little Munchkin lurking somewhere in my heart. Make the fellow an ork, throw on some strength augmentations... yeah, I can see it already.

On a separate note that is certain to start a fight, though that's not my intention: Ammunition.

The book says all LMGs use LMG ammo, and all Assault Rifles use Assault Rifle ammo. But to borrow from your actualy example, the M249 SAW uses the same ammunition as the M16. On the other hand, the M240 uses the same ammunition as the M14 battle rifle, which the system would certainly lump in as an Assault Rifle.

Here's my question: Does anybody do things like saying...

Light Pistols, Machine Pistols and SMGs (and Hold-out Pistols) actually use the same ammo? (9mm for example)
Assault Rifles and LMGs use the same ammo? (5.56mm through 7.62mm)

Now, what if somebody were to come up with a Thompson SMG equivalent that used Heavy Pistol ammunition? Would you just call it an Assault Rifle? (One more point of damage for the longer barrel and the same penetration.) Or would you still call is an SMG?

My favorite example: the 5.7x28mm round. Used in the FN FiveseveN pistol and the P90 PDW. It would probably have SR4 stats of 4P/-2 given what I've seen of the actual ballistics of the round. Is that a light pistol cartridge, or heavy?

OK, clearly I need to just sit down and crank out a chart with ideas and lay them out. The way I see it, the categories (for things like specialization especially) are more about methods of use and implementation than design on the weapons in question. I'd like to come up with something like:

Light Pistol Cartridge (9x19mm Parabellum)
Heavy Pistol Cartridge (.40 S&W & .45 ACP +P)
Small-profile Pistol Cartridge (5.7x28mm)
Gonzo Pistol Cartridge (.44 Magnum)
Light Rifle Cartridge (5.56x45mm NATO)
Heavy Rifle Cartridge (6.5x39mm Grendel and 7.62x51mm NATO)
Gonzo Rifle Cartridge (12.7mm and .470 WBM)

That would cover the necessary general categories, I think. Make sniper rifle rounds a separate category, because they really are, despite looking like normal rounds of the same dimensions. It would also allow for a lot more variation in categories. Besides the P93 I always harp on, how about the AK(MS)-97?

AKMS-97
Type: SMG
Damage: 6P
AP: -1
Mode: SA/BF//FA
RC: - (1)
Ammo: 30©
Ammo Type: Light Rifle
Availability: 4R
Cost: 400
¥
Concealability: +4 (+5 with stock extended)
Range Table: SMG

IMI Uzi IV (This is essentially your stock SMG)
Type: SMG
Damage: 5P
AP: -
Mode: BF
RC: - (1)
Ammo: 24©
Ammo Type: Light Pistol
Availability: 4R
Cost: 500
¥
Concealability: +3 (+4 with stock extended)
Range Table: SMG

FN P93-EF Praetor (Factory Electronic Firing)
Type: SMG
Damage: 4P
AP: -2
Mode: SA/BF/FA
RC: 2 (3)
Ammo: 50©
Ammo Type: Small-profile Pistol
Availability: 11F
Cost: 850
¥
Concealability: +3
Range Table: SMG

IMI Desert Eagle III
Type: Heavy Pistol (Semi-automatic)
Damage: 6P
AP: -2
Mode: SA
RC: -1* (Yes, the first point of other RC is negated)
Ammo: 8©
Ammo Type: Gonzo Pistol
Availability: 9R
Cost: 650¥
Concealability: +1
Range Table: Heavy Pistol

Fichetti Security 600
Type: Light Pistol (Semi-automatic)
Damage: 4P
AP: -2
Mode: SA
RC: - (1)
Ammo: 30©
Ammo Type: Small-profile Pistol
Availability: 6R
Cost: 450¥
Concealability: -2 (-1 with stock extended)
Range Table: Light Pistol

Thoughts?
Draco18s
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jul 31 2009, 12:31 AM) *
A GM reading the description of Heightened Concentration would likely take the following to mean it could compensate all of a recoil of up to Magic points, but not part of a recoil larger than that.


I agree here. A magic 6 adept could ignore any recoil up to 6, but take full penalties from 7.

Add in Adept Centering though and you could certainly do more. wink.gif

Order of operations comes up though. AC or HC comes first?
Stahlseele
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ
That's like SO something my Characters would be doing.
But i am a Troll, so i am actually ALLOWED to do that too ^^
Also, i KNEW i had THIS PICTURE somewhere ^^
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/226949...6a3d7285a_o.jpg
toolbox
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 30 2009, 08:11 PM) *
I'm sorry sir, but Light Machine guns are LMGs, and Miniguns are a special modification of machine guns; they are not one and the same. In the same way, all dolphines are whales, but not all whales are dolphines.

Not to kick the legs out from under your point, but dolphins (no e) aren't whales - they're a type of porpoise, which isn't the same thing.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
I agree here. A magic 6 adept could ignore any recoil up to 6, but take full penalties from 7.

If you're already usin a gas-vent 3 and a shock pad, that's enough to deal with most automatic fire. With more extreme recoil compensation (like a gyro-mount), you can easily fire your minigun.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jul 31 2009, 02:09 AM) *
My favorite example: the 5.7x28mm round. Used in the FN FiveseveN pistol and the P90 PDW. It would probably have SR4 stats of 4P/-2 given what I've seen of the actual ballistics of the round. Is that a light pistol cartridge, or heavy?

OK, clearly I need to just sit down and crank out a chart with ideas and lay them out. The way I see it, the categories (for things like specialization especially) are more about methods of use and implementation than design on the weapons in question. I'd like to come up with something like:

Light Pistol Cartridge (9x19mm Parabellum)
Heavy Pistol Cartridge (.40 S&W & .45 ACP +P)
Small-profile Pistol Cartridge (5.7x28mm)
Gonzo Pistol Cartridge (.44 Magnum)
Light Rifle Cartridge (5.56x45mm NATO)
Heavy Rifle Cartridge (6.5x39mm Grendel and 7.62x51mm NATO)
Gonzo Rifle Cartridge (12.7mm and .470 WBM)

That would cover the necessary general categories, I think. Make sniper rifle rounds a separate category, because they really are, despite looking like normal rounds of the same dimensions. It would also allow for a lot more variation in categories. Besides the P93 I always harp on, how about the AK(MS)-97?


Ok, first of all you can't give us example with rare ammunition like the 5.7, that is just no fair. nyahnyah.gif As I like to say, Ares dominate the belic industry, which means that they are the ones who define the how large the barrels of the weapons will be and anyone who would like to join the competition against them will have to adapt their barrels so you can fit "generic" ammo. Which means that every pistol to SMG will use 9mm, assault rifles and machine guns will use 7.62mm. Snipers are a separate case, I'll agree with you here. Anyway, that is just my two cents.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 30 2009, 10:11 PM) *
I'm sorry sir, but Light Machine guns are LMGs, and Miniguns are a special modification of machine guns; they are not one and the same. In the same way, all dolphines are whales, but not all whales are dolphines.

Also, MMGs and HMGs are obviously not vehicle-only weapons, otherwise they would be listed as Main Weapons and not as actual weapons meant for player use.

And, to cinch this discussion, link.


Those my friend are LMGs. C9s (under the Canadian system).
Neraph
QUOTE (toolbox @ Jul 31 2009, 05:10 AM) *
Not to kick the legs out from under your point, but dolphins (no e) aren't whales - they're a type of porpoise, which isn't the same thing.

I'm not sorry to prove you wrong, but:

QUOTE
Classification / Taxonomy of Cetaceans

Whales, dolphins and porpoises belong to the order Cetacea. The following taxonomy provides the most complete and up-to-date* reference in terms of current research in the field of cetacean taxonomy. The list provides common (vernacular) names, scientific names and the names for subspecies where these have been described. A number of the subspecies below have not yet been named, and in such cases these are simply referred to as subsp. in the list. The common names assigned for these animals are based upon their distribution.


From here.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 31 2009, 01:30 AM) *
I agree here. A magic 6 adept could ignore any recoil up to 6, but take full penalties from 7.

Add in Adept Centering though and you could certainly do more. wink.gif

Order of operations comes up though. AC or HC comes first?


Hmmm... I think the wording of Heightened Concentration would still restrict its use to a single, total modifier less than or equal to the magician's Magic Attribute. If you applied AC first, and had only, say, 6 points left, you would still be comparing a Magic 6 against a penalty greater than 6. Your GM, of course, may see it differently. I guess it boils down to semantics: determining whether what is left after applying some other compensation leaves a new "negative dice pool modifier."

I think the flexibility of HC is wonderful, and would put it high on my list of adept powers to have. I wonder if it would not be a bit too good if it could be combined with other abilities on the same negative modifier.
toolbox
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jul 31 2009, 09:52 AM) *
I'm not sorry to prove you wrong, but:

From here.


Huh.

So where's the e in dolphin? nyahnyah.gif
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 31 2009, 09:54 AM) *
Ok, first of all you can't give us example with rare ammunition like the 5.7, that is just no fair. nyahnyah.gif As I like to say, Ares dominate the belic industry, which means that they are the ones who define the how large the barrels of the weapons will be and anyone who would like to join the competition against them will have to adapt their barrels so you can fit "generic" ammo. Which means that every pistol to SMG will use 9mm, assault rifles and machine guns will use 7.62mm. Snipers are a separate case, I'll agree with you here. Anyway, that is just my two cents.

In case you haven't noticed, recently the entire firarms industry is in a tizzy. The intense nd ongoing combat operations in the War On Terror have shown some serious deficiencies in weapon and ammunition design, and a tremendous amount of computer modeling and design time has been going into redefining what the next generation of weapons will look like and what they will fire. The .40 S&W was a "rare" cartridge... up until it was addopted by almost every major law enforcement agency in the USA to the absolute delight of the officers using the weapons. The 5.7x28mm was a bit of an oddball used exclusively by European NATO nations as a bail-out weapon (the FN P90 PDW was originally designed EXCLUSIVELY for tha function) for vehicle crew. No, with so much close-order combat taking place, even old reliable weapons like the H&K MP5 are getting a fresh loooking over and are emerging either in new calibers (.40 S&W is a good one here of a case of a rechambering "facelift") or evolving the basic operating systems into new designs utilizing the latest in computer aided manufacturing and modern materials science, with variations designed, tested, redesigned and retested thousands of times before even becoming a physical prototype. There is a battle going on quietly for the heart of the next generation "assault rifle" cartridge, with the two best competitors with a chance of catching on being the 6.8x43mm Reminton SPC and the 6.5x39mm Alexander Arms Grendel rounds. One thing is absolutely clear: the 5.56x45mm NATO round is on its last legs, even if it takes a decade or two to vanish; it lacks the penetration and stopping power that is becoming vital on the modern battlefield. I would specifically disagree with your statement that the 7.62x51 NATO round is the basis for the assault rifles in Shadowrun 4th Ed; The range, damage and penetration are not apropriate. The H&K Enforcer is modeled on the IRL H&K PSG1 and MSG90 rifles, both chambered for that round, and it has stats for range, damage and penetration consistent with that heavier round. On the other hand, it's likely not the 5.56 either. I am assuming it is one of the new generation cartridges that is being played around with.

As it stands, there are at least three new "rifle" calibers being played with somewhat seriously at the moment, though I can't for the life of me recall the third as I am typing this. The 5.7x28 is getting a new look from many people for the excellent ballistic and especially armor defeating capabilities of the round. There are several other pistol-class rounds being toyed with speciffically for the SMG and heavy-pistol markets. It will only be with time where we see things fall out, as even the venerable .45 ACP is seeing a rebirth in several cutting-edge firearms. One thing I can say I am confident of is that the 9mm and the 5.56mm are essentially finished (certainly by 2050 for example) as well as the 7.62x39mm AK cartridge among first-world armies - plenty of short range stopping power, but not enough range and insufficient medium range accuracy.

And on Ares, they aren't the only dog in town. If you look at the weapons in the books, not even a majority of them are from subsidiaries of Ares. Firearms makers are in the business of making firearms, and in the 2070s you want to be able to brag that you have the newest! mostpowerful! first to use the new X.XXxXXmm round! Don't expect development to stagnate any time soon. As with all products in a comsumer driven economy, demand drives producers. They have no stake in maintaining the old rounds for ANY reason. They sell the new ammunition types and can charge more for it because it's New! Improved! Better! Buy it NOW! For heaven's sake, in the 1st Ed Street Samurai Catalog, they were offering the new "Firepower!TM" ammo that only the New! Predator heay pistol was chambered for at the factory. By 2nd Ed, it was standard in all heavy pistols and assumed in the stats.

What I was hoping to do was categorize ammunition into general types by basic uses. It's possible the "light pistol" round as we currently conceive of it (say, the 9mm) will simply be surplanted by things like the 5.7mm because, if for no other reason, you can get a heck of a lot more rounds in the magazine... which is why I put it in the Fichetti 600, as a way to explain a magazine that holds as many rounds as a full-up SMG, but in EVERY picture I have ever seen of the gun in ANY printing of ANY edition, doesn't have an extended magazine. The "heavy pistol" cartridge will stay on in some incarnation because it is simply too useful as a general purpose cartridge in a myriad of aplications. There WILL be a new "light" rifle cartridge for assault rifles. The 7.62mmx51 NATO is seeing a comeback, and could re-emerge as king of the heavy rifle cartridges, or we may see inroads even here to get better ballistics and penetration out of that class of round. The "Gonzo" rounds, as I called them, have always been around, and will probably always be around, and are always a sort of specialty niche market to themselves, both for pistols and rifles, and as such will inevitable experience their own revolutions (see: the new .416 Barrett "gonzo" rifle round) but as a class they won't be going away.

Anyhow, that was where I was coming from. Change comes fast in the 6th World, and a company that chooses to try to force a standstill will simply find itself left behind or burried.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Man, you do like long posts, uhm? nyahnyah.gif

Anyway, just because a weapon doesn't have Ares labeled on the side of the barrel, doesn't mean it isn't from a company owned by Ares.

Anyway, some of the companies that design weapons:

Ares: no doubts about it.
Ceska czech company, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
Colt: american company, possibly owned by Ares.
Fichetti: no company exists in RL with this name, but it sounds somewhat italian to me, Saeder-Krupp maybe?
FN: belgian manufacturer, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
Hammerli: swiss manufacturer, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp or, considering how the Swiss love to remain neutral, it could be an independent manufacturer.
Heckler und Koch: german manufacturer, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
Israel Weapon Industries: Israeli manufacturer, designer of the (in)famous Uzi smg, independent?
Izhevsk: russian manufacturer, best known for their AK series. I couldn't find much about Russia situation, but I will assume it is an independent company for now.
Military Armament Corporation: american military company, designer of Ingram and MAC's SMG's. If we consider that after the USA was desfragmented, one of the major companies might have privatize it, I would bet it would be Ares.
Mitsubishi: they do exist in RL, it is a huge conglomerate. Perhaps one of the AAA Japanese corps bought it and expanded their niche.
Mossberg: american manufacturer, possibly owned by Ares.
PJSS: couldn't find it in RL, independent?
Ranger Arms: american manufacturer, possibly owned by Ares.
Raecor: The only Raecor company that I could find in RL was a medicine company.
Remington: american company, possibly owned by Ares.
Ruger: american company, possibly owned by Ares.
Steyr: austrian company, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
Streetline Special: no company name attached to it, unknown.
Yamaha: they do exist in RL, but are a vehicle manufacturer. Perhaps one of the AAA Japanese corps bought it and expanded their niche.

Ok, by my accounts, Ares is possibly the winner by a head against Saeder-Krupp.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 1 2009, 10:07 AM) *
Man, you do like long posts, uhm? nyahnyah.gif

You must be new here.

(That was a joke.)

QUOTE
Anyway, just because a weapon doesn't have Ares labeled on the side of the barrel, doesn't mean it isn't from a company owned by Ares.

Anyway, some of the companies that design weapons:

Ares: no doubts about it.
Ceska czech company, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
Doubtful
Colt: american company, possibly owned by Ares.
I always thought so.
Fichetti: no company exists in RL with this name, but it sounds somewhat italian to me, Saeder-Krupp maybe?
No, probably some Western European conglomerate, or a minor arm of a AAA or AA.
FN: belgian manufacturer, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
No way in drek. They're going to remain independent unless I hear a Dev say otherwise. These guys are big, all on their own.
Hammerli: swiss manufacturer, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp or, considering how the Swiss love to remain neutral, it could be an independent manufacturer. I'd say probably neutral.
Heckler und Koch: german manufacturer, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
That's almost a given.
Israel Weapon Industries: Israeli manufacturer, designer of the (in)famous Uzi smg, independent? Oh, yeah. IMI isn't selling out to ANYBODY. The only AAA I can think of with the stones to try for a hostile takeover would be Lofwyr-er, I mean Sader-Krupp, but they have too much common sense to try.
Izhevsk: russian manufacturer, best known for their AK series. I couldn't find much about Russia situation, but I will assume it is an independent company for now.
Or owned by a Russian AA. Same thing.
Military Armament Corporation: american military company, designer of Ingram and MAC's SMG's. If we consider that after the USA was desfragmented, one of the major companies might have privatize it, I would bet it would be Ares. I concur completely.
Mitsubishi: they do exist in RL, it is a huge conglomerate. Perhaps one of the AAA Japanese corps bought it and expanded their niche. I always assumed it BECAME one of the first AAA Megas. These guys are HUGE and even pre-date WWII, clear back to Japanese industrialization... Think "U.S. Steel" in the late 19th century.
Mossberg: american manufacturer, possibly owned by Ares.
Maybe, but they're small enough they might have stayed independent. Remember, there are other US AAs that own weapon companies, so being American doesn't make it Ares; Not like being German makes it Lofwyr-er, I mean Sader-Krupp.
PJSS: couldn't find it in RL, independent?
Ranger Arms: american manufacturer, possibly owned by Ares.
I'll give you this one as a probably.
Raecor: The only Raecor company that I could find in RL was a medicine company.
Remington: american company, possibly owned by Ares.
Almost certainly.
Ruger: american company, possibly owned by Ares.
I don't know, I'm not so certain here. It's always possible, but they're more niche and secondary markets, so Ares might have left them be.
Steyr: austrian company, possibly owned by Saeder-Krupp.
Yeah, I think that probably went that way.
Streetline Special: no company name attached to it, unknown.
Yamaha: they do exist in RL, but are a vehicle manufacturer. Perhaps one of the AAA Japanese corps bought it and expanded their niche.
Absolutely. Probably the other AAA that didn't grow out of Mitsubishi.

Ok, by my accounts, Ares is possibly the winner by a head against Saeder-Krupp.

Sorry about the color, but it's was the simplest way to address each of your points.

You left out a few, of course. Browning is Ares almost to a certainty. Walther to S-K. Beretta, given how much manufacturing they've been doing in/for the USA might have gotten scooped up by Ares, hard to say. I doubt they're independent. Might have gone SK given geography if Ares didn't get them first. Barrett I get the impression is independent. Accuracy International became Ares, and there's proof: the Desert Strike rifle looks nearly identical to the AI Arctic Warfare with a similar design philosophy. Ingram's Ares, I'd put money (but small) on it.Andler is independent... or VERY secretly owned given the old complaints about reliability and manufacturing variances. There are others of course, but my point was that while the majority of the BIG modern manufacturers seem to have been/probably were scooped up by the megas, I expect some of the minor players exist as either true independents or minor arms of somebody who left them mostly in control of everything except how they allocate their proffits.

And don't forget, it's not just smallarms that got swallowed by the megas. Even today, Boeing Defense Systems owns a stupid big share of everything getting "painted green" (though these days it's "painted sand"). I don't see it ever falling below three major defense houses.

Incidentally, I know the Boeing name plate is still around in 2070... who owns them? Lockheed? Northrup Grumman? Those are the big three in aviation, space and naval warfare more or less, and the small fish are getting swallowed faster and faster.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 1 2009, 06:01 PM) *
Israel Weapon Industries: Israeli manufacturer, designer of the (in)famous Uzi smg, independent? Oh, yeah. IMI isn't selling out to ANYBODY. The only AAA I can think of with the stones to try for a hostile takeover would be Lofwyr-er, I mean Sader-Krupp, but they have too much common sense to try.


Hehe. Dragons with balls. Yeah, Lofwyr's one of those all right.

But he's not stupid either.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 1 2009, 07:01 PM) *
Incidentally, I know the Boeing name plate is still around in 2070... who owns them? Lockheed? Northrup Grumman? Those are the big three in aviation, space and naval warfare more or less, and the small fish are getting swallowed faster and faster.


It is almost 5AM here and I just got back from my brother's graduation party and I am too high on caffeine to go to sleep.
I'll owe you a source for now, but I'm almost sure that Boeing belonged to Aztechnology and when Ghostwalker went to Denver and disrupted them, Ares became the major shareholder of Boeing (at least that's what my friend has told me).
Neraph
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 1 2009, 09:07 AM) *
Colt: american company, possibly owned by Ares.

I'll have to find this, but I remember reading somewhere that Colt is subsidized by Ares...
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 3 2009, 10:55 AM) *
I'll have to find this, but I remember reading somewhere that Colt is subsidized by Ares...

Colt, last I checked, helt the IP for the AR-15 family of rifles (including the M-16). The M22/23 are direct decendants of those rifles, so I always assumed they were Ares.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 2 2009, 04:44 AM) *
It is almost 5AM here and I just got back from my brother's graduation party and I am too high on caffeine to go to sleep.
I'll owe you a source for now, but I'm almost sure that Boeing belonged to Aztechnology and when Ghostwalker went to Denver and disrupted them, Ares became the major shareholder of Boeing (at least that's what my friend has told me).


Couldn't find anything to hold my claims. The best thing was the dumpshock wiki saying that Boeing has partnership with both Aztec and ARES.
knightofargh
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 3 2009, 11:55 AM) *
Couldn't find anything to hold my claims. The best thing was the dumpshock wiki saying that Boeing has partnership with both Aztec and ARES.


Best I can recall (AFB currently) is from New Seattle and Corporate Download. Federated-Boeing was AA and still independent.

Then again, I'm the token SR3 guy. Matrix Crash 2.0 never happened in my world, so if FB got acquired it was after the shutdown.

Shocked to see mention of Walther upthread, everyone state-side forgets that they have an entire line other than the S&W PPK. Don't agree with 9x19 being a "light" round, but that's an old ballistic argument made fairly moot by modern JHP. I'm certainly not going to start that one. I carry 9x19, but that's due to my preference for the P99, which features 1/3 the capacity and a horrid felt recoil in .40 S&W.

I'd imagine by 2070 there is a new pistol caliber war going on between the Ares 10x21mm (10 mm), the Aztechnology 10.5x23mm (10 mm South) and the S-K 10x20mm (10 mm Kurz). Of course all three will have functionally identical projectiles and marginally different ballistic profiles.

My important question is who owns Raven? The 6th World needs a manufacturer of really unreliable .25 ACP hold-outs.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (knightofargh @ Aug 3 2009, 12:06 PM) *
Best I can recall (AFB currently) is from New Seattle and Corporate Download. Federated-Boeing was AA and still independent.

Then again, I'm the token SR3 guy. Matrix Crash 2.0 never happened in my world, so if FB got acquired it was after the shutdown.

Shocked to see mention of Walther upthread, everyone state-side forgets that they have an entire line other than the S&W PPK. Don't agree with 9x19 being a "light" round, but that's an old ballistic argument made fairly moot by modern JHP. I'm certainly not going to start that one. I carry 9x19, but that's due to my preference for the P99, which features 1/3 the capacity and a horrid felt recoil in .40 S&W.

I'd imagine by 2070 there is a new pistol caliber war going on between the Ares 10x21mm (10 mm), the Aztechnology 10.5x23mm (10 mm South) and the S-K 10x20mm (10 mm Kurz). Of course all three will have functionally identical projectiles and marginally different ballistic profiles.

My important question is who owns Raven? The 6th World needs a manufacturer of really unreliable .25 ACP hold-outs.

You know, when I read that last part, there's only one thing I have to say to you:

You are one sick duck.

As to the rest of it, I'm personally curious about getting my hands on a FN Five-seveN pistol. The round's got some great potential, but with a shorter barrel you're not going to get the velocity of the SMG potential, but that's true across the board. It's an interesting argument for a small-diameter round, though.

And I carry a Glock 22 .40 S&W, and I don't have any problems with the recoil... on the other hand, I practice rapid fire expressly so that I don't notice the recoil any more. But that's me.
knightofargh
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 3 2009, 02:03 PM) *
You know, when I read that last part, there's only one thing I have to say to you:

You are one sick duck.

As to the rest of it, I'm personally curious about getting my hands on a FN Five-seveN pistol. The round's got some great potential, but with a shorter barrel you're not going to get the velocity of the SMG potential, but that's true across the board. It's an interesting argument for a small-diameter round, though.

And I carry a Glock 22 .40 S&W, and I don't have any problems with the recoil... on the other hand, I practice rapid fire expressly so that I don't notice the recoil any more. But that's me.


Thanks, I like being considered a sicko. Someone in the 6th World has to be making "Saturday Night Specials" which are more dangerous to the user than the target. I vote Raven for that.

From what I've heard the Five-Seven is frighteningly accurate and has pretty moderate handling. They are not inexpensive to keep fed however. I've not had the chance to shoot one.

My recoil comment is specific to the P99 AS. Walther's Browning-like action makes it pull weirdly in .40 S&W. Plus if I want a 7+1, I'll carry a sub-compact or a 1911 clone. Otherwise I'm grudgingly in favor of the .40 S&W. It's a solid round out of everything else I've shot.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (knightofargh @ Aug 3 2009, 01:14 PM) *
Thanks, I like being considered a sicko. Someone in the 6th World has to be making "Saturday Night Specials" which are more dangerous to the user than the target. I vote Raven for that.

From what I've heard the Five-Seven is frighteningly accurate and has pretty moderate handling. They are not inexpensive to keep fed however. I've not had the chance to shoot one.

My recoil comment is specific to the P99 AS. Walther's Browning-like action makes it pull weirdly in .40 S&W. Plus if I want a 7+1, I'll carry a sub-compact or a 1911 clone. Otherwise I'm grudgingly in favor of the .40 S&W. It's a solid round out of everything else I've shot.

The only thing that outperforms it across the spectrum is the .45 ACP +P, and only a handful of automatics can handle it. When I lay down the cash for my H&K USP Tactical, it's going to be in .45 because it CAN handle the +P, and .45 ammo can be pretty cheap to plink with, and I know a reloader.

As the the price of the 5.7x28, I've found places where the price is as low as decent .40 S&W. Now, that's not necessarily saying much, but it's coming down. It also depends very heavily on the load you select; The plastic tipped hollow point (no, that's not a mistake) is approaching assault rifle ammunition. That particular round is especially effective against body armor, I hear. The reason the Five-seveN is so expensive to feed is the size of the clip: it's scarry easy to empty twenty rounds down range, and then do it again. But for the accuracy, extra penetration and so forth, I'm willing to give the thing a try. I have to say, however, that it's amongst the ugliest pieces I've laid eyes on lately. I'll just have to see what the ergonomics are like on it. Because of the shape of my hands, I actually prefer the Glock to nearly everything on the marked with the singular exception of the USP.

Neraph
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 3 2009, 10:39 AM) *
Colt, last I checked, helt the IP for the AR-15 family of rifles (including the M-16). The M22/23 are direct decendants of those rifles, so I always assumed they were Ares.

In Arsenal, every mention of Colt is stand-alone. Ares does not own the M22A3 or M23, since they are listed as Colt products. I could have sworn that Ares did own it though...
DWC
Don't recall where I read it, but Ares does own Colt. They won't abandon the name for the same reason that GM still sells Cadillacs and Corvettes. The brand is iconic, which carries a tremendous value. Ares might make the best selling handgun in the world, but there are still going to be some people who trust their lives to a Manhunter because their grandfather trusted his to the 1911 that got him through *Insert conflict here*.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 3 2009, 02:07 PM) *
In Arsenal, every mention of Colt is stand-alone. Ares does not own the M22A3 or M23, since they are listed as Colt products. I could have sworn that Ares did own it though...

Maybe I'm remembering something from long, long ago? 1st Ed Street Sam Catalog?
Technofreak
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 3 2009, 08:13 PM) *
Maybe I'm remembering something from long, long ago? 1st Ed Street Sam Catalog?


Possible. It lists the Colt Manhunter in an Ares Sellrag, as well as the Colt M22A2 Assault Rifle. I imagine that, like said above, Colt is a Sub of Ares that kept its name for advertising reasons.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Technofreak @ Aug 3 2009, 02:54 PM) *
Possible. It lists the Colt Manhunter in an Ares Sellrag, as well as the Colt M22A2 Assault Rifle. I imagine that, like said above, Colt is a Sub of Ares that kept its name for advertising reasons.

That's always been my perception. I actually put my speciffic thoughts in red a ways up responding to another post.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 3 2009, 04:13 PM) *
Maybe I'm remembering something from long, long ago? 1st Ed Street Sam Catalog?


Good idea. I'll check out my Street Sam catalog and see which brand names are presented there.
HappyDaze
Since just about every Colt in the game seems to be a UCAS military weapon - not that civies can't buy and use most of them - I've made Colt into a UCAS-owned (government-controlled) company.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 3 2009, 05:51 PM) *
Since just about every Colt in the game seems to be a UCAS military weapon - not that civies can't buy and use most of them - I've made Colt into a UCAS-owned (government-controlled) company.

Hmmm, no, I have to disagree. I don't see something like that going to a group as rife with graft as the UCAS government. Somebody would have picked it up for a song from some corrupt beuracrat.
EKBT81
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 2 2009, 12:01 AM) *
You left out a few, of course. Browning is Ares almost to a certainty. Walther to S-K. Beretta, given how much manufacturing they've been doing in/for the USA might have gotten scooped up by Ares, hard to say. I doubt they're independent. Might have gone SK given geography if Ares didn't get them first. Barrett I get the impression is independent. Accuracy International became Ares, and there's proof: the Desert Strike rifle looks nearly identical to the AI Arctic Warfare with a similar design philosophy. Ingram's Ares, I'd put money (but small) on it.Andler is independent... or VERY secretly owned given the old complaints about reliability and manufacturing variances. There are others of course, but my point was that while the majority of the BIG modern manufacturers seem to have been/probably were scooped up by the megas, I expect some of the minor players exist as either true independents or minor arms of somebody who left them mostly in control of everything except how they allocate their proffits.

And don't forget, it's not just smallarms that got swallowed by the megas. Even today, Boeing Defense Systems owns a stupid big share of everything getting "painted green" (though these days it's "painted sand"). I don't see it ever falling below three major defense houses.

Incidentally, I know the Boeing name plate is still around in 2070... who owns them? Lockheed? Northrup Grumman? Those are the big three in aviation, space and naval warfare more or less, and the small fish are getting swallowed faster and faster.


I'm not so sure about Browning belonging to Ares. IRL Browning is a subsidiary of FN. I'd guess they'd keep the trademark for their civilian products. The old Corporate Shadowfiles sourcebook mentions FN as a subsidiary of the Japanese AA Monobe. Maybe there's newer information in Corporate Enclaves? Walther doesn't belong to SK, but to Ruhrmetall, SKs domestic AA competitor. IRL Hämmerli was acquired by Walther in 2006, I'd guess it's up to the GM whether to go along with that. IIRC SoE mentions Beretta as a subsidiary of the French Esprit Industries defence conglomerate.

The original Military Armaments Corporation ceased operations in 1976 and IIRC the successor company that acquired the rights to the Ingram designs went defunct after the 1986 Firearms Owner's Protection Act banned manufacturing of full-auto weapons for civilian sales. Since the Ingram Smartgun of SR probably owes its existence to the MAC-10's appearances in 80's action movies, I'd guess Ingram in 2070 is just a label used for marketing purposes. Ares is probably the best bet as proprietor.

ETA: What about Smith & Wesson? I don't recall any SR book ever mentioning them. I've got S&W products in "my" SR game, but has there ever been any official mention?
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 3 2009, 05:28 PM) *
Good idea. I'll check out my Street Sam catalog and see which brand names are presented there.


These are the brands I've found in the Street Sam catalog:

Ingram
Heckler und Koch
Bereta
Colt Manhunter
Ceska (Ares says they import them)
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