Adept mentor spirit Options

[Kerenshara]

I think it's best to say that, by paying 5 BP for mentor spirit quality, one only gets max limit of -2 and bonus of 4. That way, all mentor spirits created under this guideline will be mostly equivalent. Though some will be much better at a certain rule, it will be up to the GM to decide whether they would allow a mentor spirit with +2 to combat spell and then +2 to damage resistance.

You could choose to limit it that way, you're the GM and have to approve it anyhow. And I see no reason not to allow the combo you mentioned - you're a combat monster. OK, so how about "-1 to all social skill rolls except Intimidation" as a fair limitation. Great if you have a face to do all the talking, but what if Johnson (or the security guard at the airport) talks to you directly? I think going one extra deep is plenty to start (6 MSPs positive an 2 limitations). Remember, the 3rd limit is for when the GMreally trusts the player, not for the novice.

For more advanced levels, we can look at changeling/surge rule for some ideas.

Class I surge 5 bp, give 10BP worth of positive traits and 5bp of negative traits. For convenience, I'll format it in a way for easier comparison.

Class I surge (5bp): +10/-5

Class II surge (10bp): +15/-10

Class III surge (15 bp): +30/-15

Similarly, we can have..

Mentor Spirit I (5 bp): +4/-2
Mentor Spirit II (10 bp): +6/-4
Mentor Spirit III (15 bp): +8/-6


or alternatively, if you want it to give the same amount of bonus as surge

Mentor Spirit III (15 bp): +12/-6

The player can choose to pay the difference in terms of BP to progress to the next level. Ｉ think this deals with the biggest concern, which is the ability to juggle large bonus and limitation around without having to pay the BP.

Hmmm... pay to get a bonus WITHOUT the penalty maybe? Keep in mind, the penalties aren't really that minor. Keep in mind, some of them are like "-1 to damage resistance rolls" and so forth. How about "Roll (CHA+WIL)3 to avoid escalating any confrontation"? Think that's minor? What are your CHA and WIL?

Also, I think we will need better name than Mentor Spirit II and III. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway, I think we have a robust guideline to how to create mentor spirits like the book as long as you stick to using a limit of -2 and bonus of 4. I bet those mentor spirits were created using similar guideline.

Now there might be different ways for improvement. You can say no to improvements. You can give a additional bonus/limit to the player when they initiate. You can reward players with more bonus/limit to the player when the roleplay well. Or if you fear for munchkinism, you can consider using the above guideline in the vein of surge, so that the players will have to pay BP or karma to get additional benefits and limitations.

Oh, I ASSUMED it was based on good role play to allow increases at Initiation. Period. The only exception is if the Mentor (read: GM) really is trying to point the character in a new direction; Then it's "oh, by the way, you picked up the following bonuses" and don't tell them the penalty until they run across it the first time. You WERE going to toss them in a situation right away to let them realize it , right? "Oh, hey, no Sally, actually, I need you to make a Composure check for me. No? Well, suddenly you're enraged and decide to tell the guy off". The Surge thing is worth considering, but I need do chew on it a good bit, because since they're PAYING BP for it, they have a right to expect more punch in return. Taking a mentor JUST for the bonuses should always be discouraged. Kerenshara took Dark Goddess when I would have FAR prefered Wise Warrior or Wolf with Detection instead of Beast Spirits, but she IS death and she's also about ... fertility - remember Food Fight in the vignettes thread? Eventually she's going to discover her talent as a healer as well, but for now it's mostly about RP - she doesn't have a SINGLE Combat OR Health spell yet. Not one.

[McAllister]

I disagree with your SURGE comparison. The way the classes of SURGE work is BP spent on the SURGE quality + BP gained from negative metagenetic qualities = BP spent on positive metagenetic qualities; ergo, it's always zero-sum. For this to work, there would have to be some BP-to-MSP conversation rate. So, if 5 BP bought +4/-2, I would see it as only fair that 10 BP bought +8/-4 (double both) and 15 BP bought +12/-6 (triple both).

And, as we've discussed, 12 MSP is a lot of dice (although they're distributed across 6 or so pools). To that I would answer that the Magician quality and Mentor Spirit III would come to 30 BP, leaving almost nothing for other qualities, which almost ensures that the mentor spirit will weigh heavily in the roleplaying of the character.

[Kerenshara]

I disagree with your SURGE comparison. The way the classes of SURGE work is BP spent on the SURGE quality + BP gained from negative metagenetic qualities = BP spent on positive metagenetic qualities; ergo, it's always zero-sum. For this to work, there would have to be some BP-to-MSP conversation rate. So, if 5 BP bought +4/-2, I would see it as only fair that 10 BP bought +8/-4 (double both) and 15 BP bought +12/-6 (triple both).

And, as we've discussed, 12 MSP is a lot of dice (although they're distributed across 6 or so pools). To that I would answer that the Magician quality and Mentor Spirit III would come to 30 BP, leaving almost nothing for other qualities, which almost ensures that the mentor spirit will weigh heavily in the roleplaying of the character.

*sighs*

I really was intentionally trying to AVOID some kind of BP to *sighs again* MSP conversion. You may have a point, but I want to think about it. I would feel a lot happier if it stayed simple and self-contained withint the 5BP for the mentor spirit.

[McAllister]

I can't help but chuckle at your... what is it? Exasperation? Something milder, methinks. But the sighing is really a bit amusing.

Anyway, my suggestion was just built off Siel's SURGE comparison. I reckon I mighta said this before, but I think the best way to prevent powergaming is to encourage players to make the choices that their characters would; else, force them to justify their choices with logic their characters might use.

[siel]

I disagree with your SURGE comparison. The way the classes of SURGE work is BP spent on the SURGE quality + BP gained from negative metagenetic qualities = BP spent on positive metagenetic qualities; ergo, it's always zero-sum. For this to work, there would have to be some BP-to-MSP conversation rate. So, if 5 BP bought +4/-2, I would see it as only fair that 10 BP bought +8/-4 (double both) and 15 BP bought +12/-6 (triple both).

And, as we've discussed, 12 MSP is a lot of dice (although they're distributed across 6 or so pools). To that I would answer that the Magician quality and Mentor Spirit III would come to 30 BP, leaving almost nothing for other qualities, which almost ensures that the mentor spirit will weigh heavily in the roleplaying of the character.

Oh you are absolutely right. Never realized that they come out equal. I've been too fixated on the values of positive and negative metagenetic qualities.


In that case, as you have said.
Each level of mentor spirit should cost 5 BP and give you +4/-2.

----

I raised the SURGE comparison because I felt like they are the closest example we have. Regardless of other limitations in the subsystem, you are already getting out of the restrictions that the system normally have.

I am not sure if I can explain the reasons behind it very well, so I'll let someone else have the honor. However, there's probably a good reason why characters are restricted to 35 bp on Positive Qualities and Negative Qualities. If you are letting a player pay 5 bp to get out of the restriction more than the book originally allows, that might be problematic. And since there's probably also a good reason why changeling qualities work the way it does by providing a limited form of trading negative qualities for positive qualities, I thought it might be good to follow that route. 

Also, it'd be nice to have the guideline to be able to reproduce what the book have given the same BP. Additional power come at a cost. Player can purchase higher level at gm discretion, even if he hasn't roleplayed well. GM can also reward the advancement to the player that roleplayed well without having them pay the karma/bp cost.




As for MSP, sorry about, I don't like it either. Doesn't that stand for Matrix Service provider in shadowrun or something? Anyway, I just thought it would be less confusing than saying the word point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Oh you are absolutely right. Never realized that they come out equal. I've been too fixated on the values of positive and negative metagenetic qualities.


In that case, as you have said.
Each level of mentor spirit should cost 5 BP and give you +4/-2.

----

I raised the SURGE comparison because I felt like they are the closest example we have. Regardless of other limitations in the subsystem, you are already getting out of the restrictions that the system normally have.

I am not sure if I can explain the reasons behind it very well, so I'll let someone else have the honor. However, there's probably a good reason why characters are restricted to 35 bp on Positive Qualities and Negative Qualities. If you are letting a player pay 5 bp to get out of the restriction more than the book originally allows, that might be problematic. And since there's probably also a good reason why changeling qualities work the way it does by providing a limited form of trading negative qualities for positive qualities, I thought it might be good to follow that route.

Also, it'd be nice to have the guideline to be able to reproduce what the book have given the same BP. Additional power come at a cost. Player can purchase higher level at gm discretion, even if he hasn't roleplayed well. GM can also reward the advancement to the player that roleplayed well without having them pay the karma/bp cost.




As for MSP, sorry about, I don't like it either. Doesn't that stand for Matrix Service provider in shadowrun or something? Anyway, I just thought it would be less confusing than saying the word point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

OK, I went back and looked at the surge powers/abilities/drawbacks in detail. Here's what I can tell you:

The BP costs for the drawbacks are a joke, and the advantages, if you were buying them straight away instead of through normal BP are at about half cost.

As an example: Celerity (which increases walk and run move rates by 50%) is only 5 BP. And something like Unusual Hair, also 5 BP, is supposed to cancel it out? Of COURSE they wanted to charge more. At the next level, you get Metagenic Improvement at 20 BP, but that not only opens your racial maxumum, but gives you an additional stat point as well. That's 20 BP right there when you compare Exceptional Attribute (20 BP) and a single stat point that isn't the final one (10 BP), so of course you need to pay 20 PLUS take a 10 BP disadvantage. When you compare them at face value, the Metagenic Negative Qualties are all overprices (give back an awful lot of points for the penalty). OK, there are exceptions like Neoteny which cost you two damage track boxes at 10 BP.

But let's go back to the math for how MSPs break down by BPs.

OK: You pay 5 BP to get net +2 dice, if you figure that the disadvantages roughly equal one of the advantages. When they're negative dice, they're always something important: -1 to Damage Resistane, or -1 to resist something, or -1 to all spells n a category. In the first case, that's no small thing. How many of us spend dozens of BP and/or thousands of nuyen trying to get that on mre die in BODy to resist damage? And if your mage is specialized in a couple categories of spell, that means they probably skimped some place else. That means that -1 is going to make it disproportionately more difficult for a mage to toss spells from that category. Like I mentioned earlier, +2 more dice in a category you're already "favoring" (You DID chose that benefit/spirit, right?) is like a specialization, worth 2 BP, but more limited because it's not all spells. But with any of the skill examples, it IS like a specialization.

So let's say your physical adept takes two skills at +2, that's the equivalent of 4BP. Then you take one of the disadvantages, and let's say you think it's only worth a point because it's so lame (go back and look at the SURGE negative qualities at the 5 BP mark again -weird eyes, in the age of cybereyes? Please.), and that reduces your net benefit to a total of 3 BP. But you paid 5 BP for the Mentor Spirit. And that's the BETTER choice, as opposed to a pair of spell categories (1/5 of a specialization, or .4 BP each) or spirits. The only things that might be priced about right are some of the situations, like +2 to Toxin/Disease Resistance... but that's already in the book at 5 BP each, and you're taking a limitation, so you wind up getting 5-9 BP worth of bonus, depending on how much you think the limitations are worth. If you priced the limitations according to the SURGE limits, you'd almost always come out negative on BP with a Mentor Spirit.

That's the math. You can't just look at basic plus/minus when you try to compare SURGE; You have to look at relative power of each, and why you're paying extra points. Even so, in the end you're coming out ahead unless you pick one of the more damaging limitations. If you don't mind being a "freak", you can take all 5 BP negatives and wind up with no meaingful game penalties beyond your appearance and a drekload of plusses.

So, if we say, keeping it simple and taking SURGE as the example, that +2 dice are 5BP each and a limitation s -5 BP, you PAY 5 BP for the extra bonus while negating the cost of the second with a limitation. If you're really sticking to the SURGE classification, then you SHOULDN'T need to pay anything extra at each new level: you're totaly equal. With SURGE, you're paying more beacuse you're GETTING more: 15 BP = 30 points up - 15 points down. But you're still getting more benefirs than penalties, and that's why you pay. Here, that just isn't the case.

OK, that's the math and the detailed comparison. Thoughts? (Other than "dear gods, you ramble!")

[McAllister]

Dear gods, the maths!

So, here's my thought; it's summary time. Let's see if I can get at the point of your post in a series of one-sentence statements.

--SURGE drawbacks are worth more points than they're worth, especially because frequently they're just cosmetic.

--SURGE benefits are, in general, more useful than the benefits from an equal BP-number of normal qualities.

--Since you're probably going to apply your bonus dice towards your areas of focus, we're going to give two +2 bonuses the same price as we would if they were specializations, and say they're worth 4bp.

--It's hard to come up with a precise value for generalized -1 penalties, but they're probably somewhere between 1 and 5 BP.

--Therefore, no arrangement of mentor spirit bonuses/penalties is going to be overpowered, because you'll net 3 BP of bonuses tops while spending 5 BP for the privilege.

Do I understand that about right?

[Kerenshara]

Dear gods, the maths!

So, here's my thought; it's summary time. Let's see if I can get at the point of your post in a series of one-sentence statements.

--SURGE drawbacks are worth more points than they're worth, especially because frequently they're just cosmetic.

--SURGE benefits are, in general, more useful than the benefits from an equal BP-number of normal qualities.

--Since you're probably going to apply your bonus dice towards your areas of focus, we're going to give two +2 bonuses the same price as we would if they were specializations, and say they're worth 4bp.

--It's hard to come up with a precise value for generalized -1 penalties, but they're probably somewhere between 1 and 5 BP.

--Therefore, no arrangement of mentor spirit bonuses/penalties is going to be overpowered, because you'll net 3 BP of bonuses tops while spending 5 BP for the privilege.

Do I understand that about right?

Well, if you're going to INSIST on converting to BP at all, then yes, that was my argument in a nutshell, minus the explanations and so forth. *grin* Thanks translating it for the rest of the people out there. Ever think of working for Cliff's Notes?

[siel]

Oh god I hate it when I hit the back button by accident.

I am going to make a shorter version of what I was typing up before. 




After taking a quick glance at the metagenetic qualities, it occurred to me that they aren't simple DP modifiers. Unlike the Custom Mentor Spirit Guideline, we don't simply deal with DP ups and downs, so this makes the metagenetic qualities a different kind of beast. 

As you have mentioned, yes, some negative qualities are virtually freebies such as unusual hair. If the player dyed his hair, tada, negative quality gone. However, the same could be said about some of the limitations you can pick up with the mentor spirit. What if the player pick -2 to palming? I am sure you can work out something that involves the player having to use palming, but then you are probably good enough to deal with unusual hair.

Also, some of the positive metagenetic qualities are silly as well. Do you really want to pick up camouflage for 10 BP so you can get a +2 to infiltration when you are naked?

There are fantastic positive metagenetic qualities like metagenetic improvement, yes. At the same time, a lot of them suck. The same hold true with the potential choices in the custom mentor spirit guideline. 

===

As for MSP to BP conversion, it's not something I really want to deal with. Since you started, I'll take a stab at it.

Before I start, keep in mind that the system is built with certain restrictions. Some of them being:

1) There's a maximum to natural and augmented attributes and skills.

2) In game, it cost more and more to improve an attribute or a skill

3) Specialization can only be taken once and is only applied to one aspect of the skill.

4) There are restrictions to how many positive and negative qualities you can take, even if they cancel out.

5) Mentor spirit's bonuses are restricted to two things, limiting their impact on the entire system.




+2 to air spirit, +2 to health spell


These are not the same as specialization as far as I can tell. If it's +2 to air spirit with respect to summoning, then it's a specialization. However, it's +2 to air spirit with respect to summoning, binding, and possibly banishing and negotiation at gm's discretion.

Same with +2 to health spell, it's at the very least affects spellcasting and ritual spellcasting, possibly affecting counterspelling, identifying the spell, or researching the spell or whatever at gm's discretion. I'm probably wrong, but I think it's fair to say they affect at least two skills? In that case, having a +2 to air spirit and +2 to health spell is like having 8 BP.

Also to consider that you get these bonuses on top of possible specializations. A privilege in itself.




+2 to negotiation

This applies to all aspect of negotiation, not just the specialized part of bargaining, diplomacy, or sense motive.

Given the reasons above, I don't think the specialization comparison is fair.

How much is +2 skill modifier worth then? Well it depends. You can get a +2 modifier to perception (visual really) cheap with some glasses, thought that's only visual. You could improve the skill itself, which cost 4 bp for each level at chargen and variable cost in game, but that's not quite the same. 

Is it fair to say it's equivalent to 8 BP, the cost to improve your skill by 2 then? Not necessarily. You are capped at rating of 4 at chargen with some exception. This allow you to bypass that restriction.

Maybe you could say it's like adept's power Improved Ability: Other skill which cost 0.5 power point for +2. With a lot of optional rules, you could attempt a comparison and compare that to bp/karma. A mage gains a metamagic at initiation. Optional rule allow adept to gain a power point at initiation. Optional rule allow a mage to learn metamagic at 15 karma. So maaaaaybe a powerpoint is worth 15 karma and 0.5 powerpoint is 8 karma and thus 4 bp? Don't hold me responsible to it, I don't believe this drek either. 

Furthermore, directly raising your skill or improved ability are still restricted to normal skill max. The bonus you get from mentor spirit is a DP modifier and thus not restricted to natural or augmented skill maximum, right? That in itself is a bonus that can't be easily quantified. 




===

Now for an example that will likely get torn apart.

Let's see, assume I would like to play a face and my goal is not to get uber high DP, just a very good DP. Furthermore, allow me to use karma rules for easier comparison.

I can have my negotiation and con at 4. I will also have a (dump?) skill of dodge at 2. I would like to get my skills higher, but that cost a lot.

But now, by paying 10 karma to get +2 to con, neg and -2 to dodge. I can raise my negotiation and con effective DP to 6. Since I am not concerned about ultimate efficiency, this is as good to me as actually raising my negotiation and con to 6. I would have saved (10+12)*2 = 44 karma. Now, I still want my effective dodge DP to be 2, so I pay karma to raise it to 4, costing me (6+(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) =14. 

So By paying 19 karma, I am in the same place I was with dodge DP, but my effective negotiatoin and con DP has increase.

44 -24 = 20 karma. Have I just saved 20 karma?

Now, If I can take this further without paying. I could have another +2 at a DP I care about, such as etiquette that's also at 4. I would raise it to an effective DP of 6 which would normally cost me 22 karma. I am not sure if you can just keep on selecting active skills, but assuming I can. The limitation this time would be another skill I want to keep the same, say infiltration. Costing me 14 karma to raise from 2 to 4. Again, I have magically gained karma, in a sense.

I have now stats that would normally require 66 karma, but only paid 38 karma for it.


===

Is the above a fair and good comparison? Probably not. The above example just goes to illustrate that it is harder to raise your high DP than it is to raise your low DP.

In any case, you were saying earlier that players getting an extra DP on their high DP do not benefit as much as they would suffer from less DP from a low DP, but the above might still be worth considering.

Put it another way. RP reasons aside, would you let your players take more than one mentor spirit? More than one specialization? More than 35 BP cap on qualities? or in another way, only let awakened do the above?




Hm... actually, can a mundane take a mentor spirit?




In any case, I'm just tossing some ideas. This has been an interesting discussion. And if my gm tell me I can earn the advancement without paying BP for it, I'd totally take it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I also hope the OP is still around and find this interesting. It seems like the OP just.. disappeared. Leaving just three of us here discussing.

[McAllister]

Well, I hadn't, but you're not the first person to tell me that in the past 24 hours. It bears considering. I mean, maybe it'd work out better if I summarized things for a living and psychology were just a hobby?

I... I'd love to contribute something else to the topic of adept mentor spirits, but I think it's been pretty well addressed.

EDIT: I posted whilst Siel was composing his thesis, so clearly the sentence about the topic having been pretty well addressed is not longer valid.

And Siel, I'm honestly not making fun of your post when I call it a thesis. I'm just a little overwhelmed (although also quite impressed) by how much thought was clearly put into it.

[Kerenshara]

* really big snip *

hm... actually, can a mundane take a mentor spirit?

In any case, I'm just tossing some ideas. This has been an interesting discussion. And if my gm tell me I can earn the advancement without paying BP for it, I'd totally take it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I also hope the OP is still around and find this interesting. It seems like the OP just.. disappeared. Leaving just three of us here discussing.

That's why I wanted to leave BP out of it entirely, but when a comparison had to be made to SURGE, I basically did a really quick and dirty off-the-cuff comparison to show how taking the extra levels is neutral at best. The thing is, remember, you're taking a STEREOTYPE from culture, not making up some min-maxed cheeze-whore monstrosity-abomination for a Mentor Spirit. Why would any spirit give you -2 to Palming? And regardless of how worthless it is, if it's highly representative of the mentor's archetype, then it's fair game. This sort of thing requires an honest player and a thorough GM. You can't let a Munchkin run around loose in the reactor compartment with a silver-plated monkey-wrench and expect things to run smoothly. If it's obviously a stretch for cheese, fall back to the default totem.