the book says a adept can take a mentor spirit- some have interesting bonus but most mentor power don't help adepts. Clearly mentor spirit were never meant to be taken by adepts.

maybe a web update or a small web supplements with a couple more powers and mentor spirits for the adepts would help. Anyone created mentor spirits for their adept?

I always felt that Adept needed a bit more options, they can be very powerfull and usefull but still...

any idea?

Make the Adept a Magical Adept and the Bonus can apply to his summoning/Spell-Casting too.

Bear, Rat etc. definitely provide bonuses available for an adept. Take on of these. I like em.

Dont forget the Dragon, which provides +2 negotiation.

I agree, adepts get alot less advantage from Mentor Spirits, but I think the point is for roleplaying. If it fits your character and makes them more interesting, go for it.

Alternatively, find a mentor spirit that fits your character and talk to your GM about getting the magical bonuses changed to something useful for a character who can't do sorcery or conjuring.

Otherwise, you could ask your GM if you could take whatever mentor spirit you like, but forgo the bonuses, and get it for free, since there is no mechanical difference between having or not having the quality.

I disagree, although the bonuses are nice, they aren't the main reason to get a Mentor Spirit, its the relationship that you buy.

SR3 totemic adepts are a good example of why adepts have a mentor spirit. its in SOTA 64
Not sure of SR4, been while since i read the rules, but it is a good justification for meta planar quest to intiate via la mentor.

I generally agree with both ideas here, and my current GM has been very flexible (especially since both of us sincerely dislike some of the changes in focus for some of the totems).

That being said, and this could apply to ALL totems, for adepts or not, before you choose, take a bit of time to research the totem animal's natural habits (if it's a living critter) and tribal folklore about the creature where available. If it's a legendary creature (Dragon and Phoenix as examples), brush up on the legends about the creature. If it's an archetype or an ideal, then spend time contemplating ALL the things the IDEAL embodiment of that archetype would have. Then sit down and look at the Shadowrun skills and magic systems. What things seem to fit best? Consider how YOUR CHARACTER embodies the totem/creature/ideal/archetype.

Many people don’t play their totem worth a hill of beans. It’s one of the things that I feel got lost with the de-emphasis on the whole Native American aspect of the 6^th World with each successive iteration of the rules.

Now, here's where I toss the RAW into the incinerator with glee. If you're attached to the RAW, I suggest you skip the next part, because I promise you an up-tic of at least five points on your blood pressure.



You should come up with a minimum of two skills that embody your mentor spirit's focus. Then try to pick at least two categories of magic that are appropriate. Finally, what kind of spirits are closest to your mentor spirit? Now, what kind of spirits, skills and spells are anathema to your totem? Do they have any weaknesses of note? Are there any situations that your spirit excels, like resisting magic or poisons?

EVERY single one of the totems in the books can be created with this system, but this way allows for much more flexibility. It is also EXTREMELY vulnerable to Munchkinism, so GMs are cautioned to keep a wary eye on the entire process and make final approvals prior to the player spending the first BP on the character. I would also force the player to come up with their OWN description of their mentor and why/how it differs from the normal ones. Another option is the player could ask the GM for stats on a totem as they describe it, and the GM could pick, say, 3-4 skills, 1-2 spirits, 1-2 spell types and 1-2 "situations" for the player to pick and choose from as well as at least two different appropriate "limitations" for them to choose from.


Here are the Crunchy Bits^TM:


You MUST have a net total of two (2) "points" spent when complete.

Skills (Max: 4 Skills - 1 Magical - and not more than +2 dice to any single skill)

• Bonus dice to Physical, Social and Technical active skills cost +1 point per die.*
• Bonus dice to Combat active skills cost +2 points each.
• Bonus dice to Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting and Summoning cost +2 points each ��" IF the GM allows it.

Spells (Max: 2 categories OR 3 categories AND pick 1 of the 2 left, take -2 dice in it)

• Bonus dice to a category of spell cost +1 point each.

Spirits (Max: 2 types)

• Bonus dice to a type of spirit cost +1 point each.

Situations (Max: 2 situations and not more than +2 dice to any single situation)

• Bonus dice to resist physical damage, toxins and disease,
• Bonus dice to Binding tests cost +1 point per die.
• Bonus dice to Counterspelling cost +1 point per die.
• Bonus dice to Enchanting cost +1 point per die.
• Bonus dice to Banishing cost +1 point per die.

Limitations (Max: no more than -10 points worth)

• A "weakness" requiring a "composure test" is worth -2 points.
• An appropriate mild allergy is worth -2 points.
• Losing -1 die from a category of spell is worth -2 points.
• Losing -1 die from an active skill is worth -2 points.
• Losing -1 die to resist physical damage is worth -2 points.

*If you choose “perception� as a skill with a bonus, if you also have the ability to astrally perceive, you may apply that bonus to assensing tests as well.


So if a player wanted, they could have have +2 to one skill, and +1 to TWO skills, or even +1 to FOUR skills depending on how they view their totem.

When raising their initiate grade, a character may choose to increase the depth of their connection to their totem, selecting a single limitation from above and spending the two points as they wish, but they must still abide by ALL limitations. If the character selects a third spell category at this time, they must choose to lose two dice from one of the remaining two spell categories as they become more focused on the magics of their Mentor Spirit.

*Edited the number of points you have to reach - I botched the math. Sorry.*

Very nice. This is the type of things I wish they had in street magic or rulebooks, guidelines that help gm and players to make their custom creations. 

I'll probably be stealing this. Though this should really go on a site somewhere for people to easily access.




I have to say I am curious as to how long you spent on figuring it out though.

[edit]
is there a suggested cap for bonus die for spells? spirits?

and the initiation with deeper connections does not allow more than -10 worth of limitation?
Have you considered custom metamagic feats that either reduces the limitation or enhances the bonuses?

Honestly? About 20 minutes to rough out and 40 to clean up, including posting. The OP got me thinking is all. My GM and I talked about how we disliked some of the chages and we basically had said if you're taking a totem, talk to him about how you see it. But if you look at the actual totems in the book(s), they all follow a basic patern.

As to limits:

The limit means you can eventually take a theoretical total of 14 dice in bonuses. That's plenty, seriously. The idea behind tying it to advancement of initiation was that it was a good representation of deepening connections to magic generally, so why not your totem? There is a limit in all things, however, and ... aw, hell, I just realized I screwed up the math. You have to have net TWO points not four. I'll pop back up an change it. Where was I? To go so far into the aspects of your totem, you'd have to essentially forgo other parts. Take Wolf for example. Wolf can be a leader, a teacher, a warrior, a hunter, and a caretaker. But each role is somewhat specialized in the pack, so the leader can be a caretaker and a leader and a warrior, but he is unlikely to be the teacher: that's the Beta's job. And let's not forget the Omega, who will never lead, but is vital to the emotional health in the pack by initiating play. Not everybody can be everything. And that all assumes you came up with that many things that really represent your totem well. Not every er, mentor spirit *sigh* is going to have piles and piles of spirits. But if you've designed a totem from Japanese culture that is the speaker of the Kami, let's say, you might be able to take all five of the spirit types available to your tradition, but have not much in the way of skill specializations.

As to the caps, NOTING can be more than 2 dice. The limit on spells, since there are 5 "categories" (Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion, and Manipulation), you can't have bonuses in more than two of them unless you take a full -2 penalty in one of the two you didn't pick. So it would be +1/2 A, +1/2 B, +1/2 C, 0 D, -2 E. Does that make sense?

You're most welcome to steal it... after I fix my math *smacks head*. What's a good place to post stuff like this? I was also working up more... diferentiated tables for the firearms based on 1st/2nd Ed information to give variable concealability and slightly more variation in DV/AP so there's really a point in taking A instead of B. Right tool for the job, and all that.

That cover your questions?

(I'll be honest... I'm surprised I didn't get a flame first...)

That's perfect. Not only does it really get people to interact with their totem mentor spirit guides, you could take one of the existing ones and run it through this system to make the bonuses and penalties appropriate to adepts, such as skill bonuses, composure tests and allergies. The only thing I want to know is where I'll be able to find the gun details you're working on when you post them!

Why? Because you figure if I pull ONE set of blaged rules you like out of my hoop, you might like another? *grin*

Why, that should be obvious, eh? One out of one ain't bad. And besides, from what I've read of your other posts, you know a thing or two about guns, and I'd gladly play a game of SR with more gun detail.

And worse comes to worst, I can just read your new rules and ignore them. Toss them gleefully into the incinerator, as it were.

@Kerenshara: Good show on the re-interpreting of the Mentor Spirits for Adepts. However, as a GM of 13+ years, there is no way I would ever allow any of my players to use that. Even with supervision, that system of totem creation is completely and utterly broken. You end up giving far too much for far too little. Maxing out your system, you get bonuses of (from what I can see) up to TWENTY dice!!

Skills: Max 4 skills at +2 apiece = 8 bonus dice
Spells: Max 2 categories at +2 apiece = 4 bonus dice
Spirits: Max 2 spirits at +2 apiece = 4 bonus dice
Situations: Max 2 situations at +2 apiece = 4 bonus dice

And at least 2 limitations, that cost -10 apiece... even if I take all combat/magical skills for the skill bonus category, I can get twenty dice for a paltry EIGHT BUILD POINTS. So, I'd say your system isn't so much 'vulnerable' to munchkins as it is 'custom made' for munchkins. This would make an adept completely broken in any game, especially as a starting character, and they'd advance much faster than anyone else in the game with Initiation factored it.

That being said.... from a RP stance, your system works very well. I wasn't entirely enthused with what they did with Totems in 4th ed., myself. But in any game where you work with numbers and dice, you need to keep in mind what you're giving players. If you're running a very storyline-focused game, then this system works out well. But in general, Shadowrun is a VERY dice-heavy game. Twenty dice for eight points is just far, far too much to give out.

First of all, Mentor Spirit quality is actually 5 BP.
Second, I don't think you are reading it right.

From what I can see, you have these mentor spirit points MSP. You can only have up to 2 MSP, with limitations giving you more. That means, by taking -10 MSP worth of limitations, you get total of 12 MSP to spend among each categories.

I can take 4 skills at +2 (Pysical, Social and Technical), but that would cost me 8 MSP.
I can then take bonus dice to two category of spells at +2 each, that would cost me 4 more MSP.

So, I would have total of +12 DP, not +20DP.


And when the mage/adept initiate, they can get more bonuses from more initiation by getting more limitation as well.


Looking at some spirit from the book, say wolf.
+2 combat spells = 2 MSP
+2 for beast spirit = 2 MSP
composure test = -2 MSP
total balance = 2 MSP, so it goes with the system above.

I think that's how it works. With that said, the book's mentor spirit doesn't have as much limitation and thus as much bonus DP. So what you can do is say that the limitation can only be up to -2 when you first buy the quality. I am not sure if it the -10 to limitation was supposed to be total cap or initial cap. If it was the initial cap, then yes, a munchkin can use it to get a lot of bonus die in the very beginning.

So what you can do is limit limitation to -2 at chargen. Then you have a system that can replicate almost any mentor spirit (maybe all, haven't checked).

The GM can reward the player at initiation if the player has been roleplaying and interacting with the mentor spirit. This is to reward good RP and the player will get more limitation but also more abilities. It's nice that all reward doesn't have to be in the form of karma.
Alternatively, I think it might be reasonable to have qualities that represent an increase/deepen relationship with the mentor spirit that would give you more limitations and more power. Then letting the player take the quality by paying appropriate karma or acquiring it like a metamagic feat.



And Kerenshara, I'd love to see the gun rules as well.

Why? Because you figure if you like ONE blaged set of rules I pulled out of my hoop, you'll like another? *grin*


OK, I thing, reading what you put here, that you mis-read what I had down.

OK, basically, EVERY totem in the base rules gets four up dice and one down die. One of the things that I have observed in 4th Ed is that negative modifiers hurt worse than positive modifiers help. People who have piles of dice in their primary focus areas don't NEED another pair. It doesn't matter, because they're going to beat even very high thresholds easily. On the other hand, fairly often, characters are forced to make checks OUTSIDE those areas, and even one or two lost dice can cripple a character in those areas. I'm essentialy just extending the existing balance established by the Devs. To get two up dice beyond the base formula, you have to take another limit of some kind. When I am talking about composure tests, I am talking about the same sorts of things you see in the existing rules: (CHA+WIL)3 test "or else". A wize GM keeps track of that stuff. Notice in Kerenshara's stories how she's always fighting the adrenaline? That's a totem characteristic she;s having to check against. She's an adrenaline junky and it's something she has to contend with. So to get to the max level of theoretical cheese, the character would have to accept a total of FIVE lost dice THAT ARE APROPRIATE TO THE TOTEM and/or other situational modifiers. Let me put it another way: the Dev's clearly thought that one "limitation" as I'm calling it roughly equaled two up-dice, while you paid 5 BP for the other un-linked bonus. So at max, you can get 12 dice up in exchange for 5 PB and 5 dice down. Notice also that some of the "situations" I am bringing up are all defensive, representing strengths of the totem, not offense. Combat skills are 2/1 to purchase.

Do me a favor. Re-check the math, because there's no way to get to 20 dice. Unless I screwed soemthing up I didn't mean to. Then get back to me because I'd love to discuss it further.

It's still pretty abusable, though, if the player gets to cherry-pick the advantages and the disadvantages. Every mentor spirit seems to have two bonuses and one penalty - I don't see any reason to deviate from that. Getting four bonuses and two penalties is essentially getting the equivalent of two mentor spirits at the cost of one. And I don't see why a mage should get a freebie simply for initiating - they already get a metamagic.

Alright, I just went through the entire list of spirit.

Most of the mentor spirit can be made with the guideline above (I bet the devs had guidelines like these, but wouldn't share with us ), with some exceptions. For sake of completion, I'll suggest some of these to be incorporated into the guideline, but for now I'm just pointing out differences.

Bonuses

[edit put in spoiler cause i was wrong]

There are no spellcasting, ritual spellcasting, and summoning bonuses. I believe this comes from the fact that spellcasting bonus is in the form of bonus for a category of spell and summoning bonus from a category of spirit. Though in the guideline above, they do cost more and subject to gm approval.


Limitations

Add bear magician's ability to go berserk, though it's really a composure test with longer description

There's also a situational penalty that's not covered by the guideline. These would be worth 2 points for the -1 die.

I.e. dragonslayer and wise warrior.

dragonslayer: If a Dragonslayer magician breaks a promise, whether by choice or by accident, she takes -1 die to all actions until she fulfills the promise or otherwise atones for her error.


wise warrior: -1 die to all tests if acting dishonorably, until the character atones for her action.


The last oddball come from the Sun mentor spirit.

Sun - Sun expects perfection from his followers, or at least a harsh lesson for them if they fail. Sun magicians must spend 2 points of Edge to negate a glitch or downgrade a critical glitch.



So, the guideline, with these differences included, will replicate any mentor spirit from core and street magic as long as you allow only -2 point worth of limitation and +4 total to be spent in bonuses. Also the book have bonuses in 2 and usually in different category. You do not see +1 to 4 skills. If a gm is worried about the advancement and player getting too many DP bonus, simply limit it so it's the same as the book.




Hmm, i wonder if technomancer can join the mentor spirit party.
[edit] ah yes they can. paragons. time to edit.
OOPS. forgot about the situation bonus Kerenshara had. I think that the fact binding, counterspelling, chanting, banishing were in the skill section was why I missed it. Perhaps it's better to move them to the skill section?

New post since it's a different topic.


.... I forgot I am not actually familiar with the matrix. Uhm... here's a try anyway. Note that there's a lot of special cases.

Paragons bonuses and limitations deals with matrix, programs, resonance, social, sprites, and hardware, as one would expect.
The guideline below is mainly based off of Kerenshara's guideline for custom mentor spirit. I'm just listing out the importance differences and changes.

Custom Paragon Guideline

bonuses
skill


Bonus dice to Social, cracking, electronics, influence skill group cost +1 point per die.

Resonance skill group cost +2 point per die.
example

Exception and an oddball involving language


programs
This is analogous to the spell section.
+1 to program = 1 point

exceptions

sprites
+1 die to sprite = 2 points. This is different from the spirit bonus.


miscellaneous
+2 dice on Matrix Initiative Tests = 4 points
+2 dice to all Matrix Attack Tests = 2 points 
+2 dice for threading tests = 2 points
+2 dice to all Matrix Damage Resistance Tests except Fading = 2 points


limitations
composure test = -2 points
losing -1 die from a program = -2 points
situation penalty that give -1 DP = -2 points
losing -1 die from active skill (cybercombat is the only example) = -2 points

special cases
must spend 2 points of Edge to negate a glitch or downgrade a critical glitch (Zero-One) = -2 points
-this is the same as the Sun mentor spirit, so perhaps it's not so weird.

cannot abide to pay for their lifestyle and must therefore use their abilities to spoof their lifestyle (Alias) = -2 points

Devices built or modified by such technomancers have a more arcane user interface, imposing a -2 modifier on anyone who wants to legitimately use it (Daedalus) -2 points

receive a -2 dice penalty when hacking on the fly without probing first (Probe) = -2 points

-2 dice on Hacking Tests when not hacking on the fly (Pulse) = -2 points


-----

After looking at the matrix section, I think the language skill bonus and initiative bonus might be a good addition to mentor spirits. 

+2 initiative is worth 4 points.

+1 to language is worth either 1 or 2 points.

-----

Also, I'm not sure why sprites only get +1 bonus for two points. That makes 01's bonus very powerful as it essentially gives you the same benefits at 2 point higher, but for every sprites out there. Is this intentional? Why did the devs decide like paragon would only give +1 bonus to sprites when mentor spirits give +2 bonus to spirits? It seems like there isn't a good reason and just created more differences that one need to keep track of.

Its like the build point system vs the priorties, in effect.
The flexiblitiy is great for characters theme but that flexibility is open to abuse for power maxing. Like the billion and one totem choices, where this was great for background/character and open for munkin justification for the best bonus with minimal disadvantage.

Make your choice, use responsibily and live with the consequences.

Thanks to Kerenshara you no longer have to do the math, use as you will.

No, that's just it: Normally you get 2 bonuses and 1 penalty, here you get 3 and 2, or 4 and 3, or 5 and 4... each time your math actually worsens.

As to abusability, of course it is, but this isn't designed as a plus-minus system of stat generation; It's a way to give more depth and character to mentor spirits. I can't think of too many of the spirits giving access to Heavy Weapons as a bonus, can you? Or Spellcasting? Some might, but those benefits are twice as expensive, so if you wanted, say , Spellcasting +2, you'd have to take TWO limitations to get it, further tipping the balance. And since you can buy things a die at a time, the GM could tell you you need to expand a bit, or even compel you to spend dice in what you're DOING not what you want: the spirit is a guide, not your pet. If you're a combat monster all the time, then your mentor might WANT you do something else. And remember: if you're consistently acting outside your mentor's chosen path(s), you might start to lose the benefits a die at a time as well.

Let's take Wolf, since I am familiar with Him. The skills I would pick for His list are: Infiltration, Instruction, Perception, Leadership, Survival, Tracking, Running and Unarmed Combat. The spell categories would be Combat and Detection. Spirits would be Beast and Guardian. Situations would be +2 dice on fatigue related checks. Limitations would be inability to leave a fight, inability to leave a pack member, and you could probably come up with a couple more. That's the "slate" that would be appropriate. Kind of hard to min-max that, I would think.

I'm not talking about BP, but ok...


Except that you MUST select at least one limitation, but ok so far.


Oh!

No no no no no. OK, I said you MUST obey ALL limitations. Once you get to -10 MSP (You know, I'm afraid that acronym might just sitck, blast it), you're done. So if a character wanted to start with that many disadvantages for the GM to take ADVANTAGE of (and if you pick a disad, I always see it as the GM's JOB to keep it coming bak and back and back).


It's a TOTAL cap. That's why I set it up as I did. You don't HAVE to take it all at creation. That way, if you wind up developing toards another aspect of your totem, the bonuses and penalties can evolve with you too. I would strongly recommend not taking more than 2 or at most 3 limitations to start.


All. That was the idea. I would ENCOURAGE no more than -4 MSP in limitations, -6 if the GM thinks you're really a) willing and able to play it right - this IS about encouraging RP after all and b) is positive you realize you're not getting a free ride and that you're going to be seeing those limits regularly. As Allen Wold told me at a workshop once: "A story is about a character overcoming obstacles to achieve an objective". If your character isn't having to regularly deal with the LIMITS of their totem, then the GM isn't tellng a compelling story.


The qualities aspect bears thinking on. What, you want me to write you an entirely RP-centric optional magic system in my copius spare time? *grin*

And a decrease in your relationship with your mentor spirit should ALWAYS be a possible problem. If you don't act like a Wolf, He's going to leave you to your own devices, but the DOWN SIDES to being Wolf are ingrained in your heart, so the penalties would stay. I would also say that you might be able to swap out points at Initiation, but only in things that are a) what you've actively been doing and acting and b) on the original slate.

All of them can. That was the point. This was to allow to expand the existing ones, not just make new ones.


Actually, the only "combat" related skills or bonuses are included in "situations" which you can only have 2 of. As for cost, I went to the adept powers for inspiration where combat costs double. And it makes sense.


Correct in the entirety. I included them for mentors which are overtly about magic or summoning somehow, or can be at their deeper levels. It's also there for a GM who wants more magic (there are those who feel that way).


Like I said, any. The initial cap SHOULD BE not more than 2 or at most 3 "limitations" and then only if the GM feels a) the player is trully willing to play their totem to the hilt, limitations included without having to force dice rolls and b) they realize that when the situations occur, and you're going to be making sure they do, that you're going to need to be rolling the dice. It's not a free ride or an excuse to practice high order Munchkinism.


They are very similar, and I note (and like) just how far the Devs went in making the MECHANICS similar. In fact, I want to add a optional Metamagic power which can only be taken at a level where you're taking another limitations: bonus spirit type. Similar to the Echo with an extra sprite, the mage can summon a spirit foreign to their tradition so long as it's on the list for their Mentor. Think a NA Shaman taking Guardian with Wolf.

As to the couple skills in the "situation" category, they are all listed as one of the existing bonuses from an existing Mentor in the books, and remember that I limited the number of "situations" to no more than 2. That keeps the cheese down a bit. And notice also, none of those are inherently OFFENSIVE in nature, like all the "situation" bonuses. That's why I grouped them the way I did.

I think it's best to say that, by paying 5 BP for mentor spirit quality, one only gets max limit of -2 and bonus of 4. That way, all mentor spirits created under this guideline will be mostly equivalent. Though some will be much better at a certain rule, it will be up to the GM to decide whether they would allow a mentor spirit with +2 to combat spell and then +2 to damage resistance.


For more advanced levels, we can look at changeling/surge rule for some ideas.

Class I surge 5 bp, give 10BP worth of positive traits and 5bp of negative traits. For convenience, I'll format it in a way for easier comparison.

Class I surge (5bp): +10/-5

Class II surge (10bp): +15/-10

Class III surge (15 bp): +30/-15

Similarly, we can have..

Mentor Spirit I (5 bp): +4/-2
Mentor Spirit II (10 bp): +6/-4
Mentor Spirit III (15 bp): +8/-6


or alternatively, if you want it to give the same amount of bonus as surge

Mentor Spirit III (15 bp): +12/-6

The player can choose to pay the difference in terms of BP to progress to the next level. Ｉ think this deals with the biggest concern, which is the ability to juggle large bonus and limitation around without having to pay the BP. 

Also, I think we will need better name than Mentor Spirit II and III.




Anyway, I think we have a robust guideline to how to create mentor spirits like the book as long as you stick to using a limit of -2 and bonus of 4. I bet those mentor spirits were created using similar guideline.

Now there might be different ways for improvement. You can say no to improvements. You can give a additional bonus/limit to the player when they initiate. You can reward players with more bonus/limit to the player when the roleplay well. Or if you fear for munchkinism, you can consider using the above guideline in the vein of surge, so that the players will have to pay BP or karma to get additional benefits and limitations.

You could choose to limit it that way, you're the GM and have to approve it anyhow. And I see no reason not to allow the combo you mentioned - you're a combat monster. OK, so how about "-1 to all social skill rolls except Intimidation" as a fair limitation. Great if you have a face to do all the talking, but what if Johnson (or the security guard at the airport) talks to you directly? I think going one extra deep is plenty to start (6 MSPs positive an 2 limitations). Remember, the 3rd limit is for when the GMreally trusts the player, not for the novice.


Hmmm... pay to get a bonus WITHOUT the penalty maybe? Keep in mind, the penalties aren't really that minor. Keep in mind, some of them are like "-1 to damage resistance rolls" and so forth. How about "Roll (CHA+WIL)3 to avoid escalating any confrontation"? Think that's minor? What are your CHA and WIL?


Oh, I ASSUMED it was based on good role play to allow increases at Initiation. Period. The only exception is if the Mentor (read: GM) really is trying to point the character in a new direction; Then it's "oh, by the way, you picked up the following bonuses" and don't tell them the penalty until they run across it the first time. You WERE going to toss them in a situation right away to let them realize it , right? "Oh, hey, no Sally, actually, I need you to make a Composure check for me. No? Well, suddenly you're enraged and decide to tell the guy off". The Surge thing is worth considering, but I need do chew on it a good bit, because since they're PAYING BP for it, they have a right to expect more punch in return. Taking a mentor JUST for the bonuses should always be discouraged. Kerenshara took Dark Goddess when I would have FAR prefered Wise Warrior or Wolf with Detection instead of Beast Spirits, but she IS death and she's also about ... fertility - remember Food Fight in the vignettes thread? Eventually she's going to discover her talent as a healer as well, but for now it's mostly about RP - she doesn't have a SINGLE Combat OR Health spell yet. Not one.

I disagree with your SURGE comparison. The way the classes of SURGE work is BP spent on the SURGE quality + BP gained from negative metagenetic qualities = BP spent on positive metagenetic qualities; ergo, it's always zero-sum. For this to work, there would have to be some BP-to-MSP conversation rate. So, if 5 BP bought +4/-2, I would see it as only fair that 10 BP bought +8/-4 (double both) and 15 BP bought +12/-6 (triple both).

And, as we've discussed, 12 MSP is a lot of dice (although they're distributed across 6 or so pools). To that I would answer that the Magician quality and Mentor Spirit III would come to 30 BP, leaving almost nothing for other qualities, which almost ensures that the mentor spirit will weigh heavily in the roleplaying of the character.

*sighs*

I really was intentionally trying to AVOID some kind of BP to *sighs again* MSP conversion. You may have a point, but I want to think about it. I would feel a lot happier if it stayed simple and self-contained withint the 5BP for the mentor spirit.

I can't help but chuckle at your... what is it? Exasperation? Something milder, methinks. But the sighing is really a bit amusing.

Anyway, my suggestion was just built off Siel's SURGE comparison. I reckon I mighta said this before, but I think the best way to prevent powergaming is to encourage players to make the choices that their characters would; else, force them to justify their choices with logic their characters might use.

Oh you are absolutely right. Never realized that they come out equal. I've been too fixated on the values of positive and negative metagenetic qualities.


In that case, as you have said.
Each level of mentor spirit should cost 5 BP and give you +4/-2.

----

I raised the SURGE comparison because I felt like they are the closest example we have. Regardless of other limitations in the subsystem, you are already getting out of the restrictions that the system normally have.

I am not sure if I can explain the reasons behind it very well, so I'll let someone else have the honor. However, there's probably a good reason why characters are restricted to 35 bp on Positive Qualities and Negative Qualities. If you are letting a player pay 5 bp to get out of the restriction more than the book originally allows, that might be problematic. And since there's probably also a good reason why changeling qualities work the way it does by providing a limited form of trading negative qualities for positive qualities, I thought it might be good to follow that route. 

Also, it'd be nice to have the guideline to be able to reproduce what the book have given the same BP. Additional power come at a cost. Player can purchase higher level at gm discretion, even if he hasn't roleplayed well. GM can also reward the advancement to the player that roleplayed well without having them pay the karma/bp cost.




As for MSP, sorry about, I don't like it either. Doesn't that stand for Matrix Service provider in shadowrun or something? Anyway, I just thought it would be less confusing than saying the word point.

OK, I went back and looked at the surge powers/abilities/drawbacks in detail. Here's what I can tell you:

The BP costs for the drawbacks are a joke, and the advantages, if you were buying them straight away instead of through normal BP are at about half cost.

As an example: Celerity (which increases walk and run move rates by 50%) is only 5 BP. And something like Unusual Hair, also 5 BP, is supposed to cancel it out? Of COURSE they wanted to charge more. At the next level, you get Metagenic Improvement at 20 BP, but that not only opens your racial maxumum, but gives you an additional stat point as well. That's 20 BP right there when you compare Exceptional Attribute (20 BP) and a single stat point that isn't the final one (10 BP), so of course you need to pay 20 PLUS take a 10 BP disadvantage. When you compare them at face value, the Metagenic Negative Qualties are all overprices (give back an awful lot of points for the penalty). OK, there are exceptions like Neoteny which cost you two damage track boxes at 10 BP.

But let's go back to the math for how MSPs break down by BPs.

OK: You pay 5 BP to get net +2 dice, if you figure that the disadvantages roughly equal one of the advantages. When they're negative dice, they're always something important: -1 to Damage Resistane, or -1 to resist something, or -1 to all spells n a category. In the first case, that's no small thing. How many of us spend dozens of BP and/or thousands of nuyen trying to get that on mre die in BODy to resist damage? And if your mage is specialized in a couple categories of spell, that means they probably skimped some place else. That means that -1 is going to make it disproportionately more difficult for a mage to toss spells from that category. Like I mentioned earlier, +2 more dice in a category you're already "favoring" (You DID chose that benefit/spirit, right?) is like a specialization, worth 2 BP, but more limited because it's not all spells. But with any of the skill examples, it IS like a specialization.

So let's say your physical adept takes two skills at +2, that's the equivalent of 4BP. Then you take one of the disadvantages, and let's say you think it's only worth a point because it's so lame (go back and look at the SURGE negative qualities at the 5 BP mark again -weird eyes, in the age of cybereyes? Please.), and that reduces your net benefit to a total of 3 BP. But you paid 5 BP for the Mentor Spirit. And that's the BETTER choice, as opposed to a pair of spell categories (1/5 of a specialization, or .4 BP each) or spirits. The only things that might be priced about right are some of the situations, like +2 to Toxin/Disease Resistance... but that's already in the book at 5 BP each, and you're taking a limitation, so you wind up getting 5-9 BP worth of bonus, depending on how much you think the limitations are worth. If you priced the limitations according to the SURGE limits, you'd almost always come out negative on BP with a Mentor Spirit.

That's the math. You can't just look at basic plus/minus when you try to compare SURGE; You have to look at relative power of each, and why you're paying extra points. Even so, in the end you're coming out ahead unless you pick one of the more damaging limitations. If you don't mind being a "freak", you can take all 5 BP negatives and wind up with no meaingful game penalties beyond your appearance and a drekload of plusses.

So, if we say, keeping it simple and taking SURGE as the example, that +2 dice are 5BP each and a limitation s -5 BP, you PAY 5 BP for the extra bonus while negating the cost of the second with a limitation. If you're really sticking to the SURGE classification, then you SHOULDN'T need to pay anything extra at each new level: you're totaly equal. With SURGE, you're paying more beacuse you're GETTING more: 15 BP = 30 points up - 15 points down. But you're still getting more benefirs than penalties, and that's why you pay. Here, that just isn't the case.

OK, that's the math and the detailed comparison. Thoughts? (Other than "dear gods, you ramble!")

Dear gods, the maths!

So, here's my thought; it's summary time. Let's see if I can get at the point of your post in a series of one-sentence statements.

--SURGE drawbacks are worth more points than they're worth, especially because frequently they're just cosmetic.

--SURGE benefits are, in general, more useful than the benefits from an equal BP-number of normal qualities.

--Since you're probably going to apply your bonus dice towards your areas of focus, we're going to give two +2 bonuses the same price as we would if they were specializations, and say they're worth 4bp.

--It's hard to come up with a precise value for generalized -1 penalties, but they're probably somewhere between 1 and 5 BP.

--Therefore, no arrangement of mentor spirit bonuses/penalties is going to be overpowered, because you'll net 3 BP of bonuses tops while spending 5 BP for the privilege.

Do I understand that about right?

Well, if you're going to INSIST on converting to BP at all, then yes, that was my argument in a nutshell, minus the explanations and so forth. *grin* Thanks translating it for the rest of the people out there. Ever think of working for Cliff's Notes?

Oh god I hate it when I hit the back button by accident.

I am going to make a shorter version of what I was typing up before. 




After taking a quick glance at the metagenetic qualities, it occurred to me that they aren't simple DP modifiers. Unlike the Custom Mentor Spirit Guideline, we don't simply deal with DP ups and downs, so this makes the metagenetic qualities a different kind of beast. 

As you have mentioned, yes, some negative qualities are virtually freebies such as unusual hair. If the player dyed his hair, tada, negative quality gone. However, the same could be said about some of the limitations you can pick up with the mentor spirit. What if the player pick -2 to palming? I am sure you can work out something that involves the player having to use palming, but then you are probably good enough to deal with unusual hair.

Also, some of the positive metagenetic qualities are silly as well. Do you really want to pick up camouflage for 10 BP so you can get a +2 to infiltration when you are naked?

There are fantastic positive metagenetic qualities like metagenetic improvement, yes. At the same time, a lot of them suck. The same hold true with the potential choices in the custom mentor spirit guideline. 

===

As for MSP to BP conversion, it's not something I really want to deal with. Since you started, I'll take a stab at it.

Before I start, keep in mind that the system is built with certain restrictions. Some of them being:

1) There's a maximum to natural and augmented attributes and skills.

2) In game, it cost more and more to improve an attribute or a skill

3) Specialization can only be taken once and is only applied to one aspect of the skill.

4) There are restrictions to how many positive and negative qualities you can take, even if they cancel out.

5) Mentor spirit's bonuses are restricted to two things, limiting their impact on the entire system.




+2 to air spirit, +2 to health spell


These are not the same as specialization as far as I can tell. If it's +2 to air spirit with respect to summoning, then it's a specialization. However, it's +2 to air spirit with respect to summoning, binding, and possibly banishing and negotiation at gm's discretion.

Same with +2 to health spell, it's at the very least affects spellcasting and ritual spellcasting, possibly affecting counterspelling, identifying the spell, or researching the spell or whatever at gm's discretion. I'm probably wrong, but I think it's fair to say they affect at least two skills? In that case, having a +2 to air spirit and +2 to health spell is like having 8 BP.

Also to consider that you get these bonuses on top of possible specializations. A privilege in itself.




+2 to negotiation

This applies to all aspect of negotiation, not just the specialized part of bargaining, diplomacy, or sense motive.

Given the reasons above, I don't think the specialization comparison is fair.

How much is +2 skill modifier worth then? Well it depends. You can get a +2 modifier to perception (visual really) cheap with some glasses, thought that's only visual. You could improve the skill itself, which cost 4 bp for each level at chargen and variable cost in game, but that's not quite the same. 

Is it fair to say it's equivalent to 8 BP, the cost to improve your skill by 2 then? Not necessarily. You are capped at rating of 4 at chargen with some exception. This allow you to bypass that restriction.

Maybe you could say it's like adept's power Improved Ability: Other skill which cost 0.5 power point for +2. With a lot of optional rules, you could attempt a comparison and compare that to bp/karma. A mage gains a metamagic at initiation. Optional rule allow adept to gain a power point at initiation. Optional rule allow a mage to learn metamagic at 15 karma. So maaaaaybe a powerpoint is worth 15 karma and 0.5 powerpoint is 8 karma and thus 4 bp? Don't hold me responsible to it, I don't believe this drek either. 

Furthermore, directly raising your skill or improved ability are still restricted to normal skill max. The bonus you get from mentor spirit is a DP modifier and thus not restricted to natural or augmented skill maximum, right? That in itself is a bonus that can't be easily quantified. 




===

Now for an example that will likely get torn apart.

Let's see, assume I would like to play a face and my goal is not to get uber high DP, just a very good DP. Furthermore, allow me to use karma rules for easier comparison.

I can have my negotiation and con at 4. I will also have a (dump?) skill of dodge at 2. I would like to get my skills higher, but that cost a lot.

But now, by paying 10 karma to get +2 to con, neg and -2 to dodge. I can raise my negotiation and con effective DP to 6. Since I am not concerned about ultimate efficiency, this is as good to me as actually raising my negotiation and con to 6. I would have saved (10+12)*2 = 44 karma. Now, I still want my effective dodge DP to be 2, so I pay karma to raise it to 4, costing me (6+=14. 

So By paying 19 karma, I am in the same place I was with dodge DP, but my effective negotiatoin and con DP has increase.

44 -24 = 20 karma. Have I just saved 20 karma?

Now, If I can take this further without paying. I could have another +2 at a DP I care about, such as etiquette that's also at 4. I would raise it to an effective DP of 6 which would normally cost me 22 karma. I am not sure if you can just keep on selecting active skills, but assuming I can. The limitation this time would be another skill I want to keep the same, say infiltration. Costing me 14 karma to raise from 2 to 4. Again, I have magically gained karma, in a sense.

I have now stats that would normally require 66 karma, but only paid 38 karma for it.


===

Is the above a fair and good comparison? Probably not. The above example just goes to illustrate that it is harder to raise your high DP than it is to raise your low DP.

In any case, you were saying earlier that players getting an extra DP on their high DP do not benefit as much as they would suffer from less DP from a low DP, but the above might still be worth considering.

Put it another way. RP reasons aside, would you let your players take more than one mentor spirit? More than one specialization? More than 35 BP cap on qualities? or in another way, only let awakened do the above?




Hm... actually, can a mundane take a mentor spirit?




In any case, I'm just tossing some ideas. This has been an interesting discussion. And if my gm tell me I can earn the advancement without paying BP for it, I'd totally take it

I also hope the OP is still around and find this interesting. It seems like the OP just.. disappeared. Leaving just three of us here discussing.

Well, I hadn't, but you're not the first person to tell me that in the past 24 hours. It bears considering. I mean, maybe it'd work out better if I summarized things for a living and psychology were just a hobby?

I... I'd love to contribute something else to the topic of adept mentor spirits, but I think it's been pretty well addressed.

EDIT: I posted whilst Siel was composing his thesis, so clearly the sentence about the topic having been pretty well addressed is not longer valid.

And Siel, I'm honestly not making fun of your post when I call it a thesis. I'm just a little overwhelmed (although also quite impressed) by how much thought was clearly put into it.

That's why I wanted to leave BP out of it entirely, but when a comparison had to be made to SURGE, I basically did a really quick and dirty off-the-cuff comparison to show how taking the extra levels is neutral at best. The thing is, remember, you're taking a STEREOTYPE from culture, not making up some min-maxed cheeze-whore monstrosity-abomination for a Mentor Spirit. Why would any spirit give you -2 to Palming? And regardless of how worthless it is, if it's highly representative of the mentor's archetype, then it's fair game. This sort of thing requires an honest player and a thorough GM. You can't let a Munchkin run around loose in the reactor compartment with a silver-plated monkey-wrench and expect things to run smoothly. If it's obviously a stretch for cheese, fall back to the default totem.