Metagame issues with character behavior, Likely a touchy subject Options

[TeknoDragon]

As noted in previous posts, I'm quite new to Shadowrun. I may have partly put myself in this situation by making assumptions about the style of the game. I'd figured on moderately amoral, hopefully anti-hero play, much like the characters both here, in the SR4A sample fiction, and the novels of years past.

The problem I had in the game last night went like this: There was a guy that the team thought had necessary info; the team did a messy grab off the street, took the target to an abandoned warehouse, and proceeded to attempt to interrogate him. My character stayed out of the interrogation. One character then said something about getting his friend (another character) to torture the target.

The target... I don't need to go into details; he's currently alive, and 'only' slightly maimed. The team did not gain useful information, nor was there information worth getting from the target. Not worth the price paid.

In character? Mine verbally tore his companions up one side and down the other; even a combat hacker is not going to be able to physically stop two allies who are much better at killing people than he is. Hell, my hacker was the only one to do anything 'good cop', as in feeding the target, etc.

Out of character, I told the group, truthfully, that I was very close to taking my dice and going home. The group is all adults, late 20's or older. The GM is perfectly willing to let players do things like this, though the other players apparently are ignoring the hints about reputation as well as the degrading ethical quality of the team's jobs. This is not the game I thought I'd be playing, especially given how the other players (and GM) have played D&D as well.

Keeping on while this game continues like this is not an option for me, and leaving the group (for the SR game, at least) is an option I am considering. Those are pretty much the extremes-- keep going as-is or leave. Part of why I am posting this is to see if I should have been expecting this from a generic SR group. The other part is seeking advice in how to handle this in a mature fashion.

I hope I have not crossed any lines regarding the forum rules (I just read and re-read them before posting this), and wish to apologize in the case that this or any replies offend anyone here.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Keep in mind I am a new player of SR, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but your situation sounds very similar to what I experienced with a gaming group who play D&D (3.5) as well, in that they had very little care for the reputation of the team and went for killing as a first option rather than last. Just because I made a character who could shoot people in the head, did not mean I thought the character actually wanted to be so wantonly destructive because it would bring the heat down on him and the team.

You can read more of the details I experienced in this thread here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=26965&hl=

[Summerstorm]

Sometimes all one need is just to remind the players of WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE JUST DOING. But sometimes they just play insane amoral bastards with hearts black as a tarpit.

I once had a group of characters which was really ok. Yes they did shoot people, but they at least tried to keep it stun for innocent guards and such. But then, one evening they agreed to a job which was about creating some chaos, emulate gang-activity, and just pressure the security in an area. (It was about setting lone star up as incompetent, so they would lose their protection contract at the re-negotiation ONE months from now)

It was a high paying job, and had no real deadline: Just do it so in a months it looks horrible too keep them. Ok... easy setup right? THREE of Five were dead two days later. The players were so pumped at the table, that the characters became completely psychotic. (The Johnson was terrified about what happened). We had two guys going completely nuts with explosives for example. They used up 50!!!!! kg of highgrade explosives in ONE detonation (result: 91D, when i remember correctly) and that in a apartment building. The explosion destroyed not only the building and the inhabitants, but also surrounding houses, cars and such. Then they used an old WWII ANTI-AIR FLAK they restorated to shoot at an event at an art-galery killing dozens of people.

Well... that stunt they of course didn't survive. (Heavy fire in urban area was promptly met by an attck helicopter, blowing their truck up). I as a GM was really shocked (and a bit amused) by this. It's like a drug, if your guys do something, you top it. The whirlwind of blood and violence sometimes goes out of control, even if the player are not really like this.

Ah i remember that thing with the explosive:
Player: And then we roll it into the house, drive away and BOOM.
I: Hm... ... oookay... so how much C12 was it?
PC: five..mumblemumble kilogramm
I: ok, 5 kilogram.. that makes it (calculate)
PC: Nono it was fivemumblemumble
I: FIFTEEN? that is a bit excessive, don't you think? Well that is (calculate)
PC2: No FIFTY.. FIFTY kilogramm.
I: ........ wha?
PC2: Yeah why do you think we needed to roll it into there? (They used a shopping cart)
I: holy shit, people... what the hell... you know there are people living here, right?

Well... you talk about it with them. Just look if they constrain themselves a bit. If not... kill the guys and free the "slightly maimed guy" Then make another character for the next group with the players *g*.

[nylanfs]

A) Do the character's have a valid reason to believe that this person has relevant information related to their current job (or a job that went south in the past?)

B) Is the person being interrogated from the street or a higher level of living? If he's from Low or Street then this has a good chance of happening even unrelated to the character's. If it's higher then there might be some serious repercussions from his organization or corp.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with interrogation, I would point out that a) it's was a messy extraction (and by this I'm assuming that they could be positively id'ed by his associates) and b) didn't cover their tracks very well. You also have to take into account that essentially EVERYONE they will meet is a criminal (except for possibly the wage-slaves). And there is very good historical support for "knee capper's", especially among the Mafia.

[CodeBreaker]

The first time I played Shadowrun I was, unfortunatly, one of those players. I was just coming out of a very hack'n'slash DnD game and didn't really think about my actions beyond "Shoot guy in face, get away". Needless to say the character didn't have much of a background, could shoot down a Helo from half a mile away (Using an Assault Cannon like a Sniper Rifle is fun) and was quickly brought down by some very unhappy people.

One of the Helos I had shot down (Yes, there was more than one) happened to be CAS Extraterritorial, so I got extradited and executed for my crimes. After that I began to pick up the hints from my GM, and the other players, that this was not on and that I should calm down and stop being such a douchebag. Now I play a Technomancer who had, at this time, maybe killed three people. And one of those was an out of control teammate.

My approach to this situation would be to ask the GM and the Players is that if this is the way the plan to continue, specifically if the GM has plans to penalize the players for torturing a man who did not need to be tortured. I hear the Star dont really appreciate it when people are picked up off the street and maimed a bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

(EDIT: On the otherhand, you are playing Shadowrunners, people who sometimes shoot people in the face for money. If it was in character I personally would not be to annoyed. But I agree it can be a bitch when what you thought might be a carefully laid out run results in a bloodbath. But it sure is fun avoiding the Star afterwards!)

[Pax]

Just my two cents, but I'm sure that by 2072 there are plenty of methods available for information gathering during interrogations that don't involve physical torture.

In a world where the average bad guy can get a hold of grenade launchers, etx, they can certainly score drugs or nanotechnology or what have you to make interrogations go easier.

And let's not forget magic.

Generally, physical means of interrogation are not that effective in gathering data. Most victims of that would just tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to stop hurting them. Other victims would acclimate to the torture, becoming more and more closed down and requiring you to escalate your efforts which always has a negative result, at least for the victim.

I agree with you that there are probably better ways to go about getting your information but I'd try and talk this out with your group a little bit before the next game if you think you can do it calmly and see if you all can reach a consensus on how to handle things in the future.

Shadowrun does have dark undertones, I am sure that physical torture is a very large part of the game background but that doesn't mean that the PC's have to get into it.

If it makes you feel better, no group I've ever run with has really had regular occassion to get down and dirty with physical interrogation like this. The one exception I can think of involved a life or death situation for a great number of people (way past the immediate group and/or their families) and there were no other means available. The players agonized over what to do about it which was the point of the situation that the GM had put us in. The aftermath of that scenario continues to be talked about even today although it occured years ago in real time.

I should point out my group consists of adults, past their mid 20's, most of us have military experience and a pretty broad sampling of real-life experience in general so we're not a bunch of wallflowers playing out our concept of a [email="hard@ss"]hard@ss[/email].

Your concerns about reputation and the impact that this kind of behavior wil have on the group are also well founded but it doesn't sound like your GM is going to enforce that.

I'd try to talk to them one more time before you make your decision. I hope something develops positivley out of this for you, if the game is otherwise going good for you don't wreck a good thing unless you're backed into a corner on it.

Good luck.

[Method]

This is a pretty common phenomenon with people coming over from The Game That Causes Cancer. Without Alignments many players assume that amoral hack-n-slash in SR has no consequences. Thats where you need the GM to step in and impose a little reality.

But if you ask me this can all be handled in game. Reputation and job degradation aside, the guy they tortured may have been a nobody, but even nobodies have family and friends. Maybe the guy's brother just happens to be a LS detective? Maybe there was a witness in the warehouse that the team was unaware of? Maybe this "friend" of your teammate isn't so loyal as to not talk? You might suggest these options to the GM OoC. A culmination of all three would put some serious hurtin' on your team (and your character unfortunately). Alternately, if you feel so compelled there is no rule that says your hacker cannot actively work against the group behind the scenes. If your GM is hands-off enough to let some of the group torture, he should not stop you from betrayal. If he does than that should inform your decision about whether or not to leave that group.

Now, as for the meta-game component- I guess I would ask you to further explain what your moral objection is to their actions. Surely you don't think these people you play with would torture another human being IRL? What is it about their actions in game that should compel you to not play? Why should your moral objection extend to torture but not murder, which I assume must also take place in your game? I am not judging your decision, just asking you to clarify your (rather strong) stance.

[TeknoDragon]

One of the Helos I had shot down (Yes, there was more than one) happened to be CAS Extraterritorial, so I got extradited and executed for my crimes. After that I began to pick up the hints from my GM, and the other players, that this was not on and that I should calm down and stop being such a douchebag. Now I play a Technomancer who had, at this time, maybe killed three people. And one of those was an out of control teammate.

My approach to this situation would be to ask the GM and the Players is that if this is the way the plan to continue, specifically if the GM has plans to penalize the players for torturing a man who did not need to be tortured. I hear the Star dont really appreciate it when people are picked up off the street and maimed a bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

Or, to make matters worse, one of the witnesses to the grab Got Away. Oh, and the target was a teenaged Ork. The witness was also an Ork. And this happened right at an entrance to the Ork Underground. The team was apparently supposed to /follow/ the target in and get to the goal, which is a starlet look-alike who escaped/was freed/was taken from a Yakuza-owned brothel.

I really like this character, even if his looks are a bit out there (as in, character creation: Hey, cool, Raptor legs. What's this? Balance tail?). Probably will have to burn Edge to even survive this fiasco.

[MKX]

Notoriety

Once that hits the point where the Johnson's & Fixers know your rep as murdering, torturing bastards, pretty soon the only work you'll be getting is wet.
Which have their place in the SR universe, but that notoriety is something which will keep climbing to the point that security elements get wind of it and it might be time to slash and burn the old ID's, contacts (which still talk to you) and skipping for pastures to start from scratch.

[kanislatrans]

Sometimes the scariest words in the shadows aren't "It will be easy", it's "Hoi,remember me?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[TeknoDragon]

Now, as for the meta-game component- I guess I would ask you to further explain what your moral objection is to their actions. Surely you don't think these people you play with would torture another human being IRL? What is it about their actions in game that should compel you to not play? Why should your moral objection extend to torture but not murder, which I assume must also take place in your game? I am not judging your decision, just asking you to clarify your (rather strong) stance.

For me, it is a matter of getting into character and identifying with it more than just some numbers on paper. While I doubt that the players would actually do these things iRL, I did not know my own mind on this subject until it happened in-game; it was not unlike discovering that I most emphatically did not like a food I'd never tried before by way of tasting it. Also, it was the circumstances around the torture; namely, there was insufficient reason to do employ that method, and it was begun due to one player not considering his actions or making sure he heard what he thought he heard. I'd probably put it at someone killing a valet at a restaurant because he was delaying the character.

[Method]

I see. Well I would say that if your interest is to explore the seedy world of SR from your character's perspective playing with these guys might give you your money's worth. What I mean is it would be boring to experience the SR world through a character that is a carbon copy of yourself IRL, right? The whole point of this kind of RP is that the character will go places, do things and have experiences that are alien to you, the player. I would argue that you are actually roleplaying on a very sophisticated level because it sounds like you aren't just learning about the character and the world, you are learning about yourself. As uncomfortable as it may be, this group is allowing you that.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't strive to change things if you aren't getting the enjoyment you want out of the game. I'm just saying that I wouldn't be *too* quick to toss in the towel just because you are the only one at the table RPing on that level. Its all about reframing what you are trying to achieve.

[Shamrock]

As a GM for Shadowrun, I will tell you this.

'Shoot first, ask questions later' is a pretty standard modus operandi for Shadowrun groups. I have no real problem with this, since my game adheres pretty closely to the gritty feeling I've come to expect from Shadowrun in general. People get shot all the time by gangers, assassins, hategroups, and more let alone Shadowrunners.

My group however, stepped over a line I had thoroughly made clear.

While running Dark Angel, these two runners go to a gathering in the middle of an abandoned lot based on a tip they heard previously. Now, the participants in this gathering a pretty much teenagers who listen to loud music.

They had basically gotten the hint that there was no real info to be found, but decided, for the hell of it, to interrogate a young man who happened to get in the way.

I insisted that he clearly didn't know anything, yet they pushed the issue, and when he didn't give them what they wanted, they cut off 3 of his fingers and left him in a dumpster. This was senseless violence for the sake of senseless violence. I let them know that I disapproved of this, and that there would be severe consequences if their actions continued in this fashion. We tried to retcon this action and get things back on track, since I decided to give them another chance.

We haven't touched the module since... However, since that day, they're a lot more conscious about what they do and if it can land them in a lot of trouble other ways both in and out of the game world.

Anyway, as far as my two cents go, don't give up Shadowrun because of a few people acting like savages. Try to convince your GM that this is objectionable to you OUTSIDE of a gaming situation and he may be more receptive to you, since, if you guys are anything like me, can't afford to lose players.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm not sure what sort of advice I can offer a player other then talking to the GM about it out of character.

As my stance as a GM, I know my crew pretty well so i haven't had to give my "Standard Disclaimer" in a while but it's pretty straightforward.

I am not here to help anyone get their rape/torture/whatever fantasy off.
I run Shadowrun very ice cold pro. That's not to say there isn't a time and place for a minigun in a mall or do I beat players up for not confining themselves to my idea of the social norm but I stress to them that the world of shadowrun has consequences, they are looser and more governed by the rule of awesome then our world but they are still there. One thing johnson's likely despirse is this sort of discretion as it has the possibility of drawing attention.

I do not reward players for being sloppy by giving them sloppier jobs, when your infamy gets too high (say around 5) welcome to no longer playable status.

That's my take on it. I'm sure the "We're all mature enough to handle graphic torture" crowd will be here in a moment.

[Stahlseele]

Well . . OK, so there are more people who my interrogation technique works . .
"Let's just say he tells me everything i wanna know. And everything he thinks i might want to know. And things he thinks could be interesting . . And i won't tell you what i am going to do to your poor little NPC over there"
Yeah, so i got hit with the NO KARMA flyswatter, but eh, i figure it was worth the looks on the faces all around the table. And i got us the information in 5 seconds flat.

[Hartbaine]

I stress to them that the world of shadowrun has consequences, they are looser and more governed by the rule of awesome then our world but they are still there.

This says it all from my point of view. Fact of the matter is your PC in Shadowrun you are not a good person. In fact you are quite 'evil' by the very standards of our own society now (the standards that made the gentleman up top wanna take his dice and go home). Your PCs will lie, cheat, steal, murder, ruin the lives of others and at the end of the day you'll be getting paid for it.

Don't even toot the morality horn and claim the Shadowrun has standards or 'Codes of Honor'. Bullshit. A criminal is a criminal no matter how one tries to justify it. What you do in a Shadowrun game is fucked up, wrong, evil, and flat out fucking twisted.

OOC I think it's the players responsibility to chime up and say 'Hey, do we really want our PCs to be known for this kind of crap?' and let the two ass hats make up their own mind. If they choose 'yes' then they need to answer for those decisions in an IC manner. It's a game, don't go getting pissed at friends because his pretendy fun time persona decided to do something you don't approve of. It's not worth it in the long run, just have fun.


If the prospect of people torturing and killing other people and calling it 'another day at the office', then Shadowrun prolly isn't the game for you. It's game about playing a criminal...

[Heath Robinson]

That's my take on it. I'm sure the "We're all mature enough to handle graphic torture" crowd will be here in a moment.

The Republican party called. Something about a job offer.

[Method]

Right, because a Democrat never tortured anybody... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Orcus Blackweath...]

Shadowrun is like any other game. If the group you are in is compatible, and you are all enjoying yourself, things are fine.

If you don't like the way the group plays, then by all means find a different group.

I have been in groups that would have had no issues with torture, and others that would have objections for multiple reasons. Usually, however our out of game morality has nothing to do with the in game actions of our characters. I believe that if you have difficulty in separating the actions of characters from reality, that perhaps you should not play roleplaying games (or risk, or monopoly, or even yu gi oh).
That being said, discuss your objections with the other players and the game master to decide if you need to find another group.

Shadowrun has a very rich and diverse backstory, including fan fiction, and a multitude of novels depicting the world in which you are playing. Most games I have been in have focused on the dark and criminal sides of the game. There is no reason that the players could not be a doc wagon team saving lives, Lone-star High Threat team, or Zoroastrian missionaries trying to bring the shamanistic heathen to convert to their religion. There is no one type of campaign that fits all players, if the darker campaigns cause you issues, perhaps you should discuss that as well.

[Moirdryd]

To be fair,

Morality and Codes of Honour have as much place as the players and GM of any one game desire in their game. Don't forget by being SINless most of what you will do could be considered a Crime. They certainly ahve alot of place in several published adventures and the Fiction upon which much of the game theme is built.

As far as needless tourture goes, it's just unprofessional and that is and has always been the key in Shadowrun. Professionalism. Your not just 'A Criminal' your 'A Shadowrunner'. Anyone can hire a bunch of thugs or gangers to turn over a joint. Anyone can send their Uber delta wared Corpsec teams into a place to pull and extraction. Anyone can hire a merc team for some heavy body guard duties. But Shadowrunners do it all. Plus they are ghosts in the system. Most of them don't exist because they are Sinless and also have no CriminalSIN. Shadowrunners get that fancy name because they are 'special' and that means professional.

Get a rep for being unprofessional and needlessly overt? You wont even see the Wet jobs. You'll be put on the same list as legbreakers and gangers by those Fixers and Johnsons who will use you, worse you'll end up as Corp meat. Sure Shadowrunners are Denial Assets who are ultimately expendable. But going down the route mentioned in the OP means you just become Expendable.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

To be fair,

Morality and Codes of Honour have as much place as the players and GM of any one game desire in their game. Don't forget by being SINless most of what you will do could be considered a Crime. They certainly ahve alot of place in several published adventures and the Fiction upon which much of the game theme is built.

As far as needless tourture goes, it's just unprofessional and that is and has always been the key in Shadowrun. Professionalism. Your not just 'A Criminal' your 'A Shadowrunner'. Anyone can hire a bunch of thugs or gangers to turn over a joint. Anyone can send their Uber delta wared Corpsec teams into a place to pull and extraction. Anyone can hire a merc team for some heavy body guard duties. But Shadowrunners do it all. Plus they are ghosts in the system. Most of them don't exist because they are Sinless and also have no CriminalSIN. Shadowrunners get that fancy name because they are 'special' and that means professional.

Get a rep for being unprofessional and needlessly overt? You wont even see the Wet jobs. You'll be put on the same list as legbreakers and gangers by those Fixers and Johnsons who will use you, worse you'll end up as Corp meat. Sure Shadowrunners are Denial Assets who are ultimately expendable. But going down the route mentioned in the OP means you just become Expendable.

Sure if you are playing that type of game, all of that is true. There is no reason you can not play a gang of thugs, a reporter and her crew, or any of a thousand different types of games. I would say that at the high ends you would have to think more about your rep than in the beginning (where survival is usually your main emphasis). Play the game you want to play, and make sure it is the same game everyone else at the table is playing.

[Moirdryd]

I thouroughly agree Orcus.

I should have added after the Morality bit that I was addressing more the OP's team (which are Shadowrunners) than the Shadowrun game universe in general.

[LurkerOutThere]

This says it all from my point of view. Fact of the matter is your PC in Shadowrun you are not a good person. In fact you are quite 'evil' by the very standards of our own society now (the standards that made the gentleman up top wanna take his dice and go home). Your PCs will lie, cheat, steal, murder, ruin the lives of others and at the end of the day you'll be getting paid for it.

None of this is expressly true. A person can be a criminal and be (at least in their own, or the eyes of those whose opinion matter to them) a good person. Alternatively you can be a very bad person and not technically a criminal. A criminal that steals art is not the same as a criminal that locks someone up in their basement rapes their kids in front of them and then cuts pieces off them. Even our current society recognizes those ethical differences.

Don't even toot the morality horn and claim the Shadowrun has standards or 'Codes of Honor'. Bullshit. A criminal is a criminal no matter how one tries to justify it. What you do in a Shadowrun game is fucked up, wrong, evil, and flat out fucking twisted.

Again I disagre there are examples, both in the material and in the actual merits and flaws of those who obey a certain situational ethics. There are parallel examples in real life. A soldier is expected to kill people and break things for their nation. In most of the western world their still not supposed to steal, pillage and rape in the process. Things might go on but their considered aberrant and treated as such when found. YOU have decided that there is no place for morality in shadowrun, that's so incorrect both from a human condition and a setting standpoint I don't know where to address it. I cannot fathom what makes you think it's valid and natural for everyone to go three sheets to the wind ethics and morality wise yet for some reason a character having doubts about a course of action morally is incomprehensible to you.

If the prospect of people torturing and killing other people and calling it 'another day at the office', then Shadowrun prolly isn't the game for you. It's game about playing a criminal...

This line of thought has come up in like 4 different threads on dumpshock just since i've been here and frankly i'm sick of it. I challenge you find me ONE, ONE (1) EXAMPLE of a protagonist in a official shadowrun story callously killing or torturing other people just as another day at the office.

In short, shadowrun is a lot more Ronin then it is Saw and I at least am pretty happy about that.

[Heath Robinson]

Right, because a Democrat never tortured anybody... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Did you read the quote in question, or did you see "Republican Party" and throw out a tangentially related slam on the Democrats? Politics is a torture for any educated person, but the Republicans are edging ahead of the Democrats in the sheer vitriol, ignorance and underhandedness they utilise in their rhetorical weapons. I saw echoes of it in the comment I quoted.

To say the least of it, it's a false dichotomy. The representation of the people who disagree with them as being some extreme position is an attitude that belies self-righteousness that is toxic to any reasoned debate. It's childish and brings the discussion to a low that we shouldn't tolerate, but response in like kind is justifiable because... ummm.. HE STARTED IT!

[Hartbaine]

This line of thought has come up in like 4 different threads on dumpshock just since i've been here and frankly i'm sick of it. I challenge you find me ONE, ONE (1) EXAMPLE of a protagonist in a official shadowrun story callously killing or torturing other people just as another day at the office.

In short, shadowrun is a lot more Ronin then it is Saw and I at least am pretty happy about that.

I could name at least one, yes.

Your Ronin/Saw analogy is subjective at best. That's the way you see the game. The fact is it's a game where we play characters who willfully commit crimes for money or favors or what have you.

I'm sorry you're 'frankly sick of it' and I'm sure the entire internet is bending to your rage, really. The games I run generally stray far from the 'sick and twisted' where respectable PCs go around raping, torturing, and slaughtering people en masse but the fact of the matter is when a soldier goes to war for his country that's one thing, a group of guys getting paid to ruin, steal, or even murder is something else entirely. When the PCs in a game do sick and twisted things (and some do out of desperation or confusion despite the PC not actually being a 'bad person') they still have to face the music for it, physically, spiritually, or mentally. We all answer to someone.

Now that's not to say that all Shadowrunners are messed, psychotic or sociopaths (although the book states most are pretty damn close). I've played PCs who would refuse certain work or only use skills and techniques that didn't violate his code of ethics but the reality of the Shadowrun world is that there is a serious market in criminal activities and anyone who thinks that Shadowrunners aren't, or can't be plain old thugs is just lying to themselves.

I think games run with a more psychotic bent are left to those who like that sort of thing. Is it the wrong way to play? Certainly not, to each their own, but to gloss over everything and say that Shadowrun is somehow a chivalrous, noble, all in it for the good guys game that brims over with the very cream of human kindness is plain bullshit. Those two guys who messed that guy up are (ICly) pretty messed up and the GM hopefully will handle it by docking them karma or forcing them to buy with nuyen (old 3rd rule some tables still use) in hopes that they'll learn their lesson.