shapechange & sapient critters, wanting an official ruling, not the slugfest I found in search Options

[wylie]

simple question (I hope)

after searching the forums, the only postings I found boiled down to how the spell(s) was interpetted by THAT GM, and pettiness between 2 posters

I am looking at playing a sapient critter in the New York Missions and was wanting to use Shapechange spell for it so, at times, it could go out in public without causing a major attraction fest.
As this will be on the official level, not a home game, I would like the Devs ruling, or someone like playtester in the know, on whether this is legal. Maybe what players have seen at conventions even

i am not worried about God, animal classications, and whatever else bogged down the other blog.

I just want a basic answer so I know if I can finish the character and get it ready for NY, or if i need to plan on a metahuman race

the official rules from the NY character creation and transfer guide:
Can I be a (fill in the blank)?
Due to the campaign structure, we have restricted certain
play options. Drakes, the Infected, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits,
and AI are not allowed for player characters. Sapient critters,
Metavarients, and Changelings are all allowed, as well as the
options in the core rulebook.

thank you for any and all help provided

[Falconer]

Research your own version of it...

Explain to GM you're using this as a physical shapechange spell into a humanoid (only) form.

If he wants more, make sure you know the shapechange spell, so you can easily justify knowing a closely related spell to simplify spell research. Or close up the parameters of the spell in a way suitable to him (EG: instead of a more free form spell which could be used as a disguise or to copy others... a simpler form which allows you to take on only a single consistent metahuman form.

I originally thought as you... shapechange would allow a metahuman form (humans are critters too). But I'm not so sure on that score now.

[Ryu]

You have pretty good odds of getting the answer you desire in the "Questions&Answers" thread in the Missions sub-forum.

[Glyph]

The spell description is pretty clear, and was only muddied by people who wanted to abuse the spell, mainly by trying to argue that metahumans were "critters". Metahumans are animals, mammals, etc., but "critters"? No. The usage of that term pretty firmly excludes metahumans.

Allowing the spell to be abused that way would unbalance it - it gives you the base stats of the critter, with a bonus to physical Attributes with each hit, but is counterbalanced by things like not having your armor fit you, having to leave gear behind, and losing vocal communication. Letting it change one metahuman into another one makes it an improved physical mask spell that also boosts all physical attributes.

I would be more inclined to allow a distinctively different spell to let a sapient critter temporarily assume a metahuman form. Dragons do that, so there is precedence for such a spell existing. I'm still not sure how a Missions campaign would handle that (you might be out of luck on both counts), but they are likelier to allow such a custom spell than they would be to allow the shapechange spell to be interpreted that broadly.

[Neraph]

The spell description is pretty clear, and was only muddied by people who wanted to abuse the spell, mainly by trying to argue that metahumans were "critters". Metahumans are animals, mammals, etc., but "critters"? No. The usage of that term pretty firmly excludes metahumans.

Allowing the spell to be abused that way would unbalance it - it gives you the base stats of the critter, with a bonus to physical Attributes with each hit, but is counterbalanced by things like not having your armor fit you, having to leave gear behind, and losing vocal communication. Letting it change one metahuman into another one makes it an improved physical mask spell that also boosts all physical attributes.

I would be more inclined to allow a distinctively different spell to let a sapient critter temporarily assume a metahuman form. Dragons do that, so there is precedence for such a spell existing. I'm still not sure how a Missions campaign would handle that (you might be out of luck on both counts), but they are likelier to allow such a custom spell than they would be to allow the shapechange spell to be interpreted that broadly.

The thing is, and this is where all of the problem lies, is that Shapechange wants a critter, (Critter) Form, despite the name, wants an animal. So you can totaly make a (human) Form spell, or a (Troll) Form spell.

We have been over this before, and we still do not have an "official" ruling, despite (Human) Form being completely within the rules.

[wylie]

thank you very much

hmmm....

does anyone what the chances of a Missions GM allowing a custom spell, that similates the shapechange (or just the critter spell) so the sapient criiter can assume a metahuman shape for a limit time?

[Glyph]

You might want to try posting this question to the Shadowrun Missions subforum.

[wylie]

thank you Glyph

[Ravor]

Why bother with changing your form when a simple Physical Mask spell will do pretty much everything you want, minus the broken stat gains.

[wylie]

mask is nice, as i stated in another psot

but mask doesn't hide the physical characteristics, like size ( my naga is masked as a troll, but people keep stepping on his invisible/ masked tail. 30 feet of body is a lot body to cover, like in a bar or club....or just crossing the street as a bus passes behind you)

pixies don't have the real body mass, etc..

[Ravor]

Aye, but my answer would be "Them's the breaks." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Neraph]

Aye, but my answer would be "Them's the breaks." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Aye, and we have substantial fluff and RAW wording supporting our claim. We just lack "offical" recognition.

[Ravor]

Perhaps my memory is failing me, but that isn't how I remember the last thread going.

[wylie]

"them the brakes"

i can just see a centuar or naga physically masked walks or runs in front of a bus, or taxi

visually, people see the bus just miss the "metahuman" as it drives by, or slams on the brakes so the person has time to get out of the way, barely (yeah, right NY bus drivers stop)
but for some reason the runner is knocked across the road like a ping pong or spasms in pain

reality, either the centuar got its hind legs plowed into, or a naga's tail ran over

a pixie won't have to worry about that
and a sasquach can go as he is, or be masked as a troll.

hey, in the original SR novels called Power something, one of the characters was a sas in disguise and with the help of a spell and a device, no one knew she was a sas
any thoughts on that??

[Jaid]

secrets of power, general consensus is she was actually a wendigo, and when sam astrally perceived her he saw right through it. i would guess it's just a mask spell, personally, but it could be a shapechange spell.

[Neraph]

Perhaps my memory is failing me, but that isn't how I remember the last thread going.

Uhh... by RAW, the (Critter) Form spell just wants a non-paranormal animal, which metahumans are. The core rulebook states that great dragons have Metahuman form, but even normal dragons have spells that allow themselves to take metahuman form.

1 + 1 = 2

If (Critter )Form just wants a non-paranormal animal, and metahumans are non paranormal animals, and dragons have spells that can let them take metahuman form, then obviously spells that allow people to take metahuman form exist! It would be limited to one metahuman form per spell, just like (Critter) Form, IE: (Troll) Form, (Human) Form, ect, but that is to be expected.

EDIT: You would also be going on the 'average' stats of said metahumans: humans would have all 3s for their physical stats; a troll would be Bod 8, Agi 2, Rea 3, Str 8; ect. Hits added to stats as normal.

[Ravor]

The last time I checked, the term Critter actually meant something within the game system and was not interchangable with the word animal. And if you allow shapechanging spells you've just made the various mask spells completely useless as well as opening the door for Mages to have three dumpstats. It fails both the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) RAW and the RAI tests.

[Falconer]

Disagree strongly w/ the last portion Ravor... custom manipulation spell w/ higher drain than the illusion would not necessarily be broken.
Physical Mask has +1 drain, Shapechange has +2 drain. (not saying we couldn't knock that up to +3 or 4 drain since we're still need to be able to talk).

EG: Trollform +3 drain.... MetaShape +4 drain

Especially if it based the stats on the racial minimum + hits. 3-4 hits normal on a spellcasting is going to be pretty average.

A human w/ 3 hits would have straight 4's and a -2 sustaining penalty isn't that bad... and if he isn't sustaining he's limited by the size of his sustaining focus (probably only force 3 or 4, maybe 5 later in game).

You could set minimum force at the highest allowable attribute (to encourage hgher force castings as well).


I also disagree that the mask spells are useless. What do you do w/ the troll w/ the cyberlimb?! The limb won't shapechange... and he's probably got ungodly stats. Very usefull for hiding things who don't want their attributes screwed with. Just like a physical mask spell, the shapechange also will have an astral aura dead giveaway (which ironically the actual illusion mask spell doesn't have... the non-physical illusions are effective on the astral as well as the meat plane against non-tech).

[Ravor]

How are you coming up with the extra Drain?

Still personally I wouldn't have a problem with a multi-senses Physical Mask that covered touch, ect... Of course you'd still have the problem with getting hit by a bus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[wylie]

+3?? +4??

ok, where is the errata i am missing because I came up with +0 on drain

i am working on "metahuman" spell, and the way i figured the drain based off the charts in street magic, I got +0 for drain mods

[Summerstorm]

Hm hm... lets see:

Physical +1, Caster only -2, Physical manipulation +2, Maybe restricted effect -1 (for just Trollform or such).

And i would give: Minimum Racial Attributes, +1 per hit MAXIMUM Attribute = Force. Since this spell isn't supposed to replace all heightened attribute spells at the same time. To be a maxed out Troll you would need a force 15 spell with 15 hits... not so easy, i hope. But just one makes you a Str5,Agi1, Rea1, Bod 5 Troll, more hits just raise the low attributes, till you get the 6th and so on.

Oh... and what with the sightmods? Would be very powerful to replace your senses too, or would it? Hm, i am a bit puzzled there. The spell should really be for seeming to be something else. Not to cast yourself a hugely better body for no costs.

[Glyph]

How are you coming up with the extra Drain?

Still personally I wouldn't have a problem with a multi-senses Physical Mask that covered touch, ect... Of course you'd still have the problem with getting hit by a bus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Actually, both mask spells are multi-sense.

[wylie]

why not spell that allows you to assume a (meta)human like form, without bonus to the physical stats?

[Falconer]

Just me... but I just offhanded the drain and made it slightly higher than the basic shapechange as a way to compensate for the power of the effect.

Also, I'd shy away from caster only, and maybe go for willing target only (to increase the drain a little). -2 to -1.


Another good way to limit it's abuse potential... an automatic -2 distraction penalty for trying to do things while not in your native form. (EG: altering your dwarf to look like another dwarf won't be too bad, but you'll be one hell of an awkward troll). That should limit it's overuse as a combat buff rather than as a physical disguise.

Like the idea of capping any attribute at force, works well. All hits after the first raising stats also works nicely (first hit gets you the form and racial mins).


I wouldn't have the spell change sight mods at all... that is rightly the realm of detection spells.


Generally how that I think about it... drain isn't the right way to control the spell. Drawbacks to it's usage are. Shapechange has definate drawbacks... you're a dog (literally)... rather limits what you can do. Though a rat w/ enough hits for the stats of a troll has some nasty repurcussions to the rat traps.

[Ravor]

Kay, thanks Glyph I'd forgotten that, which in my opinion makes a shapechange spell less needed, just watch out for buses and automatic doors. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)