simple question (I hope)

after searching the forums, the only postings I found boiled down to how the spell(s) was interpetted by THAT GM, and pettiness between 2 posters

I am looking at playing a sapient critter in the New York Missions and was wanting to use Shapechange spell for it so, at times, it could go out in public without causing a major attraction fest.
As this will be on the official level, not a home game, I would like the Devs ruling, or someone like playtester in the know, on whether this is legal. Maybe what players have seen at conventions even

i am not worried about God, animal classications, and whatever else bogged down the other blog.

I just want a basic answer so I know if I can finish the character and get it ready for NY, or if i need to plan on a metahuman race

the official rules from the NY character creation and transfer guide:
Can I be a (fill in the blank)?
Due to the campaign structure, we have restricted certain
play options. Drakes, the Infected, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits,
and AI are not allowed for player characters. Sapient critters,
Metavarients, and Changelings are all allowed, as well as the
options in the core rulebook.

thank you for any and all help provided

Research your own version of it...

Explain to GM you're using this as a physical shapechange spell into a humanoid (only) form.

If he wants more, make sure you know the shapechange spell, so you can easily justify knowing a closely related spell to simplify spell research. Or close up the parameters of the spell in a way suitable to him (EG: instead of a more free form spell which could be used as a disguise or to copy others... a simpler form which allows you to take on only a single consistent metahuman form.

I originally thought as you... shapechange would allow a metahuman form (humans are critters too). But I'm not so sure on that score now.

You have pretty good odds of getting the answer you desire in the "Questions&Answers" thread in the Missions sub-forum.

The spell description is pretty clear, and was only muddied by people who wanted to abuse the spell, mainly by trying to argue that metahumans were "critters". Metahumans are animals, mammals, etc., but "critters"? No. The usage of that term pretty firmly excludes metahumans.

Allowing the spell to be abused that way would unbalance it - it gives you the base stats of the critter, with a bonus to physical Attributes with each hit, but is counterbalanced by things like not having your armor fit you, having to leave gear behind, and losing vocal communication. Letting it change one metahuman into another one makes it an improved physical mask spell that also boosts all physical attributes.

I would be more inclined to allow a distinctively different spell to let a sapient critter temporarily assume a metahuman form. Dragons do that, so there is precedence for such a spell existing. I'm still not sure how a Missions campaign would handle that (you might be out of luck on both counts), but they are likelier to allow such a custom spell than they would be to allow the shapechange spell to be interpreted that broadly.

The thing is, and this is where all of the problem lies, is that Shapechange wants a critter, (Critter) Form, despite the name, wants an animal. So you can totaly make a (human) Form spell, or a (Troll) Form spell.

We have been over this before, and we still do not have an "official" ruling, despite (Human) Form being completely within the rules.

thank you very much

hmmm....

does anyone what the chances of a Missions GM allowing a custom spell, that similates the shapechange (or just the critter spell) so the sapient criiter can assume a metahuman shape for a limit time?

You might want to try posting this question to the Shadowrun Missions subforum.

thank you Glyph

Why bother with changing your form when a simple Physical Mask spell will do pretty much everything you want, minus the broken stat gains.

mask is nice, as i stated in another psot

but mask doesn't hide the physical characteristics, like size ( my naga is masked as a troll, but people keep stepping on his invisible/ masked tail. 30 feet of body is a lot body to cover, like in a bar or club....or just crossing the street as a bus passes behind you)

pixies don't have the real body mass, etc..

Aye, but my answer would be "Them's the breaks."

Aye, and we have substantial fluff and RAW wording supporting our claim. We just lack "offical" recognition.

Perhaps my memory is failing me, but that isn't how I remember the last thread going.

"them the brakes"

i can just see a centuar or naga physically masked walks or runs in front of a bus, or taxi

visually, people see the bus just miss the "metahuman" as it drives by, or slams on the brakes so the person has time to get out of the way, barely (yeah, right NY bus drivers stop)
but for some reason the runner is knocked across the road like a ping pong or spasms in pain

reality, either the centuar got its hind legs plowed into, or a naga's tail ran over

a pixie won't have to worry about that
and a sasquach can go as he is, or be masked as a troll.

hey, in the original SR novels called Power something, one of the characters was a sas in disguise and with the help of a spell and a device, no one knew she was a sas
any thoughts on that??

secrets of power, general consensus is she was actually a wendigo, and when sam astrally perceived her he saw right through it. i would guess it's just a mask spell, personally, but it could be a shapechange spell.

Uhh... by RAW, the (Critter) Form spell just wants a non-paranormal animal, which metahumans are. The core rulebook states that great dragons have Metahuman form, but even normal dragons have spells that allow themselves to take metahuman form.

1 + 1 = 2

If (Critter )Form just wants a non-paranormal animal, and metahumans are non paranormal animals, and dragons have spells that can let them take metahuman form, then obviously spells that allow people to take metahuman form exist! It would be limited to one metahuman form per spell, just like (Critter) Form, IE: (Troll) Form, (Human) Form, ect, but that is to be expected.

EDIT: You would also be going on the 'average' stats of said metahumans: humans would have all 3s for their physical stats; a troll would be Bod 8, Agi 2, Rea 3, Str 8; ect. Hits added to stats as normal.

The last time I checked, the term Critter actually meant something within the game system and was not interchangable with the word animal. And if you allow shapechanging spells you've just made the various mask spells completely useless as well as opening the door for Mages to have three dumpstats. It fails both the RAW and the RAI tests.

Disagree strongly w/ the last portion Ravor... custom manipulation spell w/ higher drain than the illusion would not necessarily be broken.
Physical Mask has +1 drain, Shapechange has +2 drain. (not saying we couldn't knock that up to +3 or 4 drain since we're still need to be able to talk).

EG: Trollform +3 drain.... MetaShape +4 drain

Especially if it based the stats on the racial minimum + hits. 3-4 hits normal on a spellcasting is going to be pretty average.

A human w/ 3 hits would have straight 4's and a -2 sustaining penalty isn't that bad... and if he isn't sustaining he's limited by the size of his sustaining focus (probably only force 3 or 4, maybe 5 later in game).

You could set minimum force at the highest allowable attribute (to encourage hgher force castings as well).


I also disagree that the mask spells are useless. What do you do w/ the troll w/ the cyberlimb?! The limb won't shapechange... and he's probably got ungodly stats. Very usefull for hiding things who don't want their attributes screwed with. Just like a physical mask spell, the shapechange also will have an astral aura dead giveaway (which ironically the actual illusion mask spell doesn't have... the non-physical illusions are effective on the astral as well as the meat plane against non-tech).

How are you coming up with the extra Drain?

Still personally I wouldn't have a problem with a multi-senses Physical Mask that covered touch, ect... Of course you'd still have the problem with getting hit by a bus.

+3?? +4??

ok, where is the errata i am missing because I came up with +0 on drain

i am working on "metahuman" spell, and the way i figured the drain based off the charts in street magic, I got +0 for drain mods

Hm hm... lets see:

Physical +1, Caster only -2, Physical manipulation +2, Maybe restricted effect -1 (for just Trollform or such).

And i would give: Minimum Racial Attributes, +1 per hit MAXIMUM Attribute = Force. Since this spell isn't supposed to replace all heightened attribute spells at the same time. To be a maxed out Troll you would need a force 15 spell with 15 hits... not so easy, i hope. But just one makes you a Str5,Agi1, Rea1, Bod 5 Troll, more hits just raise the low attributes, till you get the 6th and so on.

Oh... and what with the sightmods? Would be very powerful to replace your senses too, or would it? Hm, i am a bit puzzled there. The spell should really be for seeming to be something else. Not to cast yourself a hugely better body for no costs.

Actually, both mask spells are multi-sense.

why not spell that allows you to assume a (meta)human like form, without bonus to the physical stats?

Just me... but I just offhanded the drain and made it slightly higher than the basic shapechange as a way to compensate for the power of the effect.

Also, I'd shy away from caster only, and maybe go for willing target only (to increase the drain a little). -2 to -1.


Another good way to limit it's abuse potential... an automatic -2 distraction penalty for trying to do things while not in your native form. (EG: altering your dwarf to look like another dwarf won't be too bad, but you'll be one hell of an awkward troll). That should limit it's overuse as a combat buff rather than as a physical disguise.

Like the idea of capping any attribute at force, works well. All hits after the first raising stats also works nicely (first hit gets you the form and racial mins).


I wouldn't have the spell change sight mods at all... that is rightly the realm of detection spells.


Generally how that I think about it... drain isn't the right way to control the spell. Drawbacks to it's usage are. Shapechange has definate drawbacks... you're a dog (literally)... rather limits what you can do. Though a rat w/ enough hits for the stats of a troll has some nasty repurcussions to the rat traps.

Kay, thanks Glyph I'd forgotten that, which in my opinion makes a shapechange spell less needed, just watch out for buses and automatic doors.

The problem I had with this is whether such spells would serve to cover your Distinctive Style. If you are trying to get into a place, whether via Infiltration or other methods, Distinctive Style is supposed to give bonuses to spot the Sapient Critter (which according to Aaron, Sapient Critters among others have Distinctive Style).

What happens when you Shapechange or Mask or somehow hide like with the Disguise skill? Does everyone still get that bonus?

Although it is unstated, I generally assume that shapechange allows you to use the normal senses and means of movement of the creature changed to (if you rule otherwise, a mage shapechanged to a raven might very well have a hard time getting used to the different field of vision, and have to learn how to work the wings).

However, while it might be able to move around and not be confused by its different senses, a sapient critter is still walking around in an alien body. Just as a mage shapechanged to a wolf would have a hard time interacting with other wolves, a sapient critter would have a hard time functioning as a metahuman. Would a naga suddenly be able to talk? To use those new appendages to do all of the clever things that we primates have learned to use them for? Would a centaur have no problem with novel things such as stairs? I would keep the distinctive style by saying that even for a sapient critter that has assimilated into metahuman society as much as possible, there would be something slightly "off" about their behavior in metahuman form.

OMG!! Do you not even read the spells? Forget about the name of the spell and look at the text!



(Critter) Form, despite the name, only wants an animal. Period. Metahumans are animals. Period. They fit the bill. Period.

No. If you do it at all, it should follow the text of the spell that allows it. You start at the average stat of that race, and add one to all physical stats for every success on the spellcasting test. I could see limiting the successes to augmented max, though.

Uhh, naga can talk.

Neraph, you still have the tiny problem that metahumans aren't just animals, they are "Namegivers".

Good point toturi, personally I figure that if they try to hide their distictive feature then they don't get roleplaying Karma.

First off, removing karma for something as easy as a Physical Invisibility spell is simply retarted.

Secondly, nowhere in SR4 is the term "Namegivers" ever mentioned; you are trying to use elements of a completely separated (as far as the rules are concerned) game. Now, I understand that there is a really good likelihood that Earthdawn is the 4th world and Shadowrun is the 6th, but that is not even hinted at in the separate stories (although there are striking similarities).

For the purposes of Shadowrun, metahumans are animals. (Critter) Form wants one specific animal. (Troll) Form, (Elf) Form, and (Human) Form are therefore legal applications of the spell's rules.

And stop commiting a composition fallacy.

No, what is retarded is the idea that you can take a flaw and then try to weasle out of it whenever it's convient.

Uh-huh, the problem is that the devs have dropped so many hints over the years that only a blind person could miss the connection, hell's bells even Sixth World Magical Theory fits with Pattern Theory.

Yes, but hints and possibilities do not constitute concrete RAW. You can have all the fluff in the world about all cybereyes being pink with green irises, but if the rules say "any color," then you can get your damned cybereyes any color.

In the same way, Earthdawn and Shadowrun are only connected by vague, theoretical connections, and not backed up with any concrete substance (for example, if the Horrors made an appearance [and, while Shedim resemble Horrors, they are not, in fact, horrors]). Therefore, when a spell asks for a non-paranormal animal, and there are no references in Shadowrun about metahumans being Namegivers (therefore metahumans are not Namegivers), a legal application of that spell is applying said spell to create a metahuman form.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but them's the breaks.

Fluff tends to trump RAW, and I suggest you take a look at some of the older sourcebooks and modules.

That sounds like the defense of someone who wishes the rules were different to me.

No, it is the basic premise that I come from, the rules are meant to describe the fluff and where the two disagree it is the rules that are at fault, not the fluff. I also refuse to budge on the idea that RAI always beats mere RAW.

i was thinking of making the hits rolled as the threshold for other people to spot the shapechanged critter, even if part of an extended test.."I know something is not right about that ork. I just can't put my finger on it."

considering i am looking at 3 months of gameplay before the character has a fair chance of developing the spell, physical mask is looking good

i also thought unless i put the spell on sustaining focus, I would get -2 for sustaining the spell
it does not hide the astral perception, only physical

now some of you made a point of saying if a player chooses to sidestep a style, or cover up something as distintive as a horse butt, they shouldn't get karma....
i'll leave that up to each GM, who I hope would discuss his viewpoint with the player before the game, or during a break if causing a problem

lets not worry about the namegivers
i have reasons to believe that shapechange spell will not be allowed to let a critter assume metahuman form. and i will have to work up the spell to be presented to the Devs...
but nothing says my character can't run around as a bird or wolf, helping out that way

guess i maybe one of those players who likes to take the weakness and turn it into an advantage
average airduct needs to be sneaked through?? nagas & pixies could be interesting inflitration specs
run in the wilderness?? centuar and sasquach may have an edge over the city dwellers

at the moment, i am trying lower my character's signal. in NY, any of the critters would cause a big stir, though sasquach only less so
and i am trying to look at RPing chances. "Pray with me to Nagaraja. Ask for his protection, so that as long as you are within my sight bad karma would not befall you."

Personally I think I'd use the "Spotting Magic" rules to simulate the effect you are looking for, although it is going to keep the ( Force ) of the spell artifically low.

My original concern was the application of Distinctive Style evenly across the board. I had initially went with the stand that since "advanced character options" were not defined, therefore Distinctive Style did not apply to any of the Sapient Critter, Metavariants, or Changlings. But Aaron told me that he thinks they are, and thus since he is one of the over-GMs for the SRMs, what he says goes.

The disconnect came from what if a Metavariant was to Disguise himself as a non-variant. Would Distinctive Style still apply? And would Distinctive Style contribute to a sec guard more easily spotting a Fomori hiding in the shadows than a normal troll? While I can run it by RAW (hence applying the Quality to all evenly) strictly, it might not be what the SRM guys want for their campaign.

Where I come from, the fluff is meant to describe the rules and where the 2 disagree it is not the rules at fault, nor it is actually the fluff per se - inaccuracies of the observers and their perspective (even if it is from a god-like one like the writer's) add to the disconnect between the rules and fluff. RAI are the rules the writers intended - if that is what the writers really intended and the developers agree with him/them, then RAI does trump RAW. But RAW trumps mere fluff. Fluff is the redheaded bastard stepchild ranking way behind either RAI or RAW, most people tend to mistake fluff for RAI. RAI doesn't come out very much, its twin brother RAW is usually the one we see. But Fluff is the one that cons people into thinking it is RAI.

Yes toturi I believe we've already had this discussion and I still disagree with you as passionently now as I did then, I'm just feeling too lazy to actually care at the moment.

Actually she was a Sasquatch, Sam's sister had turned into a Wendigo.

But on the same subject, at the end of the trilogy, she cast a physical mask to look like Sam and then cast a regular mask over that to remain in her own appreance so that the cameras showed Sam committing the crimes, but the allies thought it was still her.

Anyway, it was a good trick that might help.

Sign--

Wacky

Distinctive Style should not make Infiltration harder - it's no easier to visually spot an ogre hiding in the shadowed alcove than it would be to spot any given ork doing the same. Distinctive Style should penalize attempts to not be identified - this includes most uses of Disguise along with Shadowing attempts to remain unnoticed by your target and Etiquette tests to blend in with a crowd. RAW may disagree and apply Distincive Style as an all-inclusive penalty, but sometimes RAW is just dumb.

ANd there is no fluff for shadowrun that says that metahumans are not animals but "namegivers".

Actually my point was that, however it is implemented, it should be done uniformly and consistently. Whatever situation and however it affects someone with Distinctive Style will affect someone else with the same Quality similarly in the same situation.

Your point allowed for non-RAW implementation? You're getting soft (and, perhaps wiser).

My point was that RAW implementation could take several forms, hence "however it is implemented". Besides as they are the writers of SRM, it is RAW once it is put in print.

You would still be limiting the stats to the Racial Max or Cyber/Magic Modified Racial Max for the selected metatype, correct?

No... it's magic.

Though to be honest even a base human needs 9+ hits to get over augmented max. At that level of force, you're pretty much guaranteed to be sustaining it and you'll be rediculously high level to mask it. (advanced masking is limited to your magic in force, hits capped by force). So if something gets that big it's either unbelievably lucky or really that powerfull.


The increase attributes aren't capped such either IIRC.

And as you just learned, possession spirits are even worse modifying the base stat AND increasing the augmenting max... (just wrong, even worse they stuffed it in an ancient FAQ that hasn't been updated in forever and NOT in an errata).

Ahh, but I think you are forgetting Mäx that there is plently of fluff that connects Shadowrun and Earthdawn. Now personally I wish that the devs hadn't decided to ram the connection down our collective throats once-upon-a-time but there really isn't use in crying over spilled milk.