shapechange & sapient critters, wanting an official ruling, not the slugfest I found in search Options

[Neraph]

Ahh, but I think you are forgetting Mäx that there is plently of fluff that connects Shadowrun and Earthdawn. Now personally I wish that the devs hadn't decided to ram the connection down our collective throats once-upon-a-time but there really isn't use in crying over spilled milk.

The fluff does not matter one bit in a game of rules. Fluff is all-powerful with fiction/non-fiction books, but when a game with rules comes into it, fluff is near-meaningless.

For example; trolls have horns. But these horns do not have a damage listing. But, trolls are big, and anything that is spikey and large (even small to a troll is large to a human) will hurt and puncture if used with force.

Therefore, when a spell has a legal target (non-paranormal animal), and the rulebook is stated in other places as having creatures able to use magic (even having to sustain said spells) to become metahumans, what in the name of logic leads you to believe that this is not the case?

[Ravor]

I've already told you, I personally disagree with the basic permise you are coming from, right or wrong, the rules merely exist to reflect the fluff, in the case of Trolls, I figure that the reach bonus and average strenght score helps reflect their horns, especially considering that it doesn't seem that they are placed in a very good position when it comes to hand-to-hand combat.

However, if you want some quick and dirty thought process about why shapeshifting doesn't work the way that you want it to I'd point to the mere existance of the Mask Spells. IF it were intended for people to be able to shapeshift into metahumans then instead of the Mask Spells that the devs printed we'd have their shapeshifting versions. Hell, it would even save space.

[Ravor]

And I assume that you are referring to dragons when you talk about critters assuming metahuman form? Well a couple of problems, first, it is described as being a power and not a spell ( Although to be fair, it does appear to be the only power that can be sustained by foci, so the reasoning is little shaky. ) but more importantly, the fact that Dragons break all of the magical rules has been hammered into us by the fluff time and time again.

[Neraph]

I've already told you, I personally disagree with the basic permise you are coming from, right or wrong, the rules merely exist to reflect the fluff, in the case of Trolls, I figure that the reach bonus and average strenght score helps reflect their horns, especially considering that it doesn't seem that they are placed in a very good position when it comes to hand-to-hand combat.

However, if you want some quick and dirty thought process about why shapeshifting doesn't work the way that you want it to I'd point to the mere existance of the Mask Spells. IF it were intended for people to be able to shapeshift into metahumans then instead of the Mask Spells that the devs printed we'd have their shapeshifting versions. Hell, it would even save space.

Ok, first off we're talking about the (Critter) Form spell, not Shapechange. There is a huge difference.

Secondly, the Physical Mask spells would still be useful, for those of you who have cyber/bio or just like the stats you have and don't want to lose them.

And I assume that you are referring to dragons when you talk about critters assuming metahuman form? Well a couple of problems, first, it is described as being a power and not a spell ( Although to be fair, it does appear to be the only power that can be sustained by foci, so the reasoning is little shaky. ) but more importantly, the fact that Dragons break all of the magical rules has been hammered into us by the fluff time and time again.

No, there is the Metahuman Form power, but let me quote my source again, since you seem to love skipping over the actual facts I base my arguments on:

Lesser dragons are capable of using magic to assume metahuman forms, but it is not an innate ability. (This means that the magic must be sustained, maintained by a sustaining focus, or something similar.)

Emphasis added.

[Mäx]

Ahh, but I think you are forgetting Mäx that there is plently of fluff that connects Shadowrun and Earthdawn. Now personally I wish that the devs hadn't decided to ram the connection down our collective throats once-upon-a-time but there really isn't use in crying over spilled milk.

Maybe, but that has no relevance in discussing shadowrun rules, one should never have to know fluff from a completdly different game to use the rules of the game he's playing.
And there's nothing in the rules or the fluff of shadowrun that would stop one using the (critter)form spell to change into meta-human.

[Ravor]

Neraph, yeah and your point is? Unless Running Wild has changed something the Metahuman Form power you seem to assume that I didn't read, never mind the fact that I referenced it in my post is something that is in the domain of Dragons.

As for your quote, if you would be honest for a moment and quote more than a throw-away sentence you would discover that the sentence you are talking about is smack dab in the middle of the discription for the Metahuman Form Power, and hell's bell, if you would actually take the time to read my post you'd notice that I also referenced your preferred sentence when I mentioned sustaining with foci.

Mäx I disagree, in order to understand why Shadowrun's rules and fluf have evolved in the manner that it did, we do need to understand at least the basic Earthdawn fluff and theory.

[Neraph]

Neraph, yeah and your point is? Unless Running Wild has changed something the Metahuman Form power you seem to assume that I didn't read, never mind the fact that I referenced it in my post is something that is in the domain of Dragons.

As for your quote, if you would be honest for a moment and quote more than a throw-away sentence you would discover that the sentence you are talking about is smack dab in the middle of the discription for the Metahuman Form Power, and hell's bell, if you would actually take the time to read my post you'd notice that I also referenced your preferred sentence when I mentioned sustaining with foci.

Mäx I disagree, in order to understand why Shadowrun's rules and fluf have evolved in the manner that it did, we do need to understand at least the basic Earthdawn fluff and theory.

Wow. You truely do not understand how that works, do you?

The section that I keep referencing is NOT ABOUT THE POWER AT ALL! It specifically mentions a spell that non-great dragons are able to cast that allows them to take a metahuman form. It is not a power that lesser dragons (not great dragons) have to sustain, since ONLY great dragons are able to get that power.

[Mäx]

Mäx I disagree, in order to understand why Shadowrun's rules and fluf have evolved in the manner that it did, we do need to understand at least the basic Earthdawn fluff and theory.

Thats so much beyand ridiculous, that i don't even know where to start.

[Ravor]

Neraph, and you do not understand that even if it is referring to a spell, we are talking about Dragon Magic, which has always been explained as being able to break the rules that mere metahumans have to follow.

Mäx to each their own, but it is a simple fact that although Shadowrun came first, Earthdawn's fluff was introduced into the mix so you can't truly understand one without the other, it's a mere expanding of the theory that people really should browse the older fluff to understand things in Fourth Edition.

[Neraph]

Neraph, and you do not understand that even if it is referring to a spell, we are talking about Dragon Magic, which has always been explained as being able to break the rules that mere metahumans have to follow.

Now I can accept that to a limited degree. It is true that dragons are more powerful and have been at magic longer, and they have no discernable tradition that they follow (and can theoretically summon all types of spirits as a result), but that does not stop someone who knows a dragon having that dragon teach them the spell that allows the dragon to accept a metahuman form, and then that magician turning around and teachin others. It also does not stop a magical R&D team from developing said spell. Or just a bored guy in a basement somewhere researching the spell. Or a danged Renraku Manservant III with a (Arcana) Autosoft developing it.

I think it is humorous that you refuse to even consider the fact that it all but spells (sorry for the pun) out the fact that it is referencing an actual spell and not a power.

Mäx to each their own, but it is a simple fact that although Shadowrun came first, Earthdawn's fluff was introduced into the mix so you can't truly understand one without the other, it's a mere expanding of the theory that people really should browse the older fluff to understand things in Fourth Edition.

That is ridiculous. If you cannot understand a game without turning to a book series or another game system, then that is a poorly developed game. Shadowrun is designed to stand alone, and as such, you do not need Earthdawn at all for any fluff or history.

That's like saying you need to play Morrowind to know anything about Oblivion. Absolutely not the truth at all. Oblivion is fully enriching and enjoyable without knowing anything about Morrowind. However, if you know about Morrowind, you (debatably) get more enjoyment from Oblivion, but some things are a little problematic. For example; Argonians in Morrowind had reverse-jointed legs, and in Oblivion they do not. It makes no difference, really, but some may not like that fact.

In the same way, there are supposed similarities between Shadowrun and Earthdawn; however, one is not needed for the other. It may or may not enrich your enjoyment of the game system to know about both systems, but they are designed in such a way that one is not needed for the other.

Hence, Earthdawn's fluff is not required or in any way important as far as the rules for Shadowrun are concerned.

[Mäx]

Hence, Earthdawn's fluff is not required or in any way important as far as the rules for Shadowrun are concerned.

QFT

[Glyph]

I may not find the Earthdawn fluff too relevant, myself, but I do agree with Ravor's argument in the other thread. Namely, that all of the munchkin-mongering regarding the critter form spell involves taking the broadest possible definition of the word "animal" to give the critter form spell an ability that its parent spell doesn't have.

[Falconer]

Within some limits I agree and disagree. Critter form in it's name pretty much says 'critter' and critters are probably best described as non-sapient animals.

However, there is reason to allow a specific version of the spell to allow shapechange into a human like shape. Lesser dragons can do it as a spell. Dragon magic is radically different than player magic in that it lacks a tradition (I think i read somewhere, that to a dragon magic just is... raw magic or the like... it just thinks it and the magic shapes itself to it's will... while a player needs to invent forms to shape, mold, channel, and control the magic to his ends).

IMO: if the player is willing to spend the time and investment to research his own version he should be able to. Though from a RP perspective I'd probably want him to know the shapechange/critter form spell to start. Manipulation spells have such a long interval and such a high target number that it would take a long time in game terms to research the spell. (so much so that he'd probably just want to spend the money & karma for the spell up front for the bonus dice it gives on the extended test).


As far as the bits about clearly the same as the mask illusion. I disagree.

The mask spell has no ability to change body shape, or body stats. It does not limit the character from using his top of the line custom fit gear, or metahuman specialized gear. It wouldn't change the characters movement mode or speed. It merely hides what the character already is.


This is exactly where the problem lies and why a custom designed spell for balance sake would need to be different than the basic spell.

Who cares if you shapeshift into a mountain lion w/ stats on par w/ a troll... you have no equipment and the shape comes w/ it's own limitations.

On the other hand if you shift into a troll w/ starting stats of 7/2/3/7 before even applying net hits to raise them... then people have good reason to flinch. Why should a 1/1/1/1 human be able to replace his stats at will like this. Put on some new gear, sustain it with a low force focus, and suddenly get all the benefits of a troll (for as long as it's convenient) w/ none of the mental penalties. (also raises for some oddities such as a cha 9+ elf in troll form).



Quite frankly... I can't find any common ground w/ Ravor... fluff is fluff... authors have a penchant for literary license and a touch of the dramatic and hyperbole. His argument turns into one of, I don't like the rules, therefor I'll make my own. Fine, be honest about it then, there's a long history of house rules. But fluff generally is never written w/ any thought whatsoever to it's impact on balance and interactions w/ other aspects of the system. Rules generally are, and we playtest rules, we do not playtest fluff.

[Ravor]

No, I'm just not going to bother considering the point of what kind of spells lesser Dragons may or mat not have access too in a thread that is dealing with metahumans. I suppose if a DM was willing to allow a metahuman to "learn" the Dragon's magical traditions via fiat then perhaps it would be important to me. Dragon Magic doesn't have to follow the same rules that metahumans do and I'm not sure that I'd agree that Dragon Magic is something a mere mortal could even hope to learn in the first place.

As for your discussion about fluff, by that reasoning you should be railing against including the fluff from the older Editions of Shadowrun as well.

[Mäx]

As for your discussion about fluff, by that reasoning you should be railing against including the fluff from the older Editions of Shadowrun as well.

Not, the same think in the lighest.
Everythink thats not changed in newer fluff is valid.

[Ravor]

Nope, tis exactly the same.

[Wombat]

Random Spell inspired by the thread.

Metahuman Form (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) +2
(Metatype) Form (Physical)
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1

Metahuman Form transforms a voluntary subject into one of the standard metatypes that comprise metahumanity, though the subject retains its own consciousness. This form is the same gender as the caster and generally shares other traits as well—eyes of the same color, skin color of similar shade , distinctive scars and injuries, tattoos, piercings, etc...

Consult the Metatype Attribute Table, p. 81 SR4A, for the subject’s Base Physical attributes while in metahuman form. Add 1 to the subject's Base Physical attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates, up to the metatype's Augmented Maximums. The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the highest value of the attributes being affected. Her Mental attributes remain unchanged. This spell does not transform clothing and equipment.

Metatype form works like the Metahuman Form spell, but only allows the subject to change into a specific metatype. Each Metatype form is a different spell (Dwarf Form, Human Form, and so on).

This could obviously be modded for a caster's personal use only, dropping the DV down by 3; Very Restricted Target from Restricted Target (-1), and LOS to Touch (-2).

[wylie]

cool spell
i sent something similair to the mission devs for clarication, ie: spell i could justify on learning in character
think my drain was higher though
and the attributes was done different

[Glyph]

Who cares if you shapeshift into a mountain lion w/ stats on par w/ a troll... you have no equipment and the shape comes w/ it's own limitations.

On the other hand if you shift into a troll w/ starting stats of 7/2/3/7 before even applying net hits to raise them... then people have good reason to flinch. Why should a 1/1/1/1 human be able to replace his stats at will like this. Put on some new gear, sustain it with a low force focus, and suddenly get all the benefits of a troll (for as long as it's convenient) w/ none of the mental penalties. (also raises for some oddities such as a cha 9+ elf in troll form).

This is why that spell is extremely unbalancing. Why bother with an Increase Attribute spell when you can turn into an elf and increase all of your Attributes at once? I certainly wouldn't allow it, and I doubt the Missions campaigns would.

[HappyDaze]

I'd just allow the hits to bring you up to your natural scores before racial adjustments. This means that a human with Body 3 changing into a troll would get Body 5 with 1 hit, Body 6 with 2 hits, and Body 7 with 3+ hits. If his Strength was 2, it would be a 5 with 1 hit and 6 with 2+ hits. The same character with Agility 3 would have Agility 1 with 2 hits or less and Agility 2 with 3+ hits.

[darthmord]

However, if you want some quick and dirty thought process about why shapeshifting doesn't work the way that you want it to I'd point to the mere existance of the Mask Spells. IF it were intended for people to be able to shapeshift into metahumans then instead of the Mask Spells that the devs printed we'd have their shapeshifting versions. Hell, it would even save space.

Actually, I'd have to disagree with your premise.

The Mask spells merely give the illusion you are something other than what you normally appear.

The various Shapechanging spells **ACTUALLY** change your shape.

One spell makes people see you as something you are not.

The other makes you into something else that people see.

Two entirely different functions, similar outcomes with some significant differences.

[Wombat]

I'd just allow the hits to bring you up to your natural scores before racial adjustments. This means that a human with Body 3 changing into a troll would get Body 5 with 1 hit, Body 6 with 2 hits, and Body 7 with 3+ hits. If his Strength was 2, it would be a 5 with 1 hit and 6 with 2+ hits. The same character with Agility 3 would have Agility 1 with 2 hits or less and Agility 2 with 3+ hits.

I considered that. At first the spell read,

Consult the Metatype Attribute Table, p. 81 SR4A, for the subject’s Base Physical attributes while in metahuman form. Add 1 to the subject's Base Physical attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates, up to the caster's natural attributes in their native form or the metatype's Augmented Maximums, whichever is lower.

Because the point of the spell is the shape, not the stats, it really doesn't matter if the Elf in Troll form has a less than troll-like strength, or that the Troll in Elf form has less than Elf-like charisma(read as physical beauty).

How about this though...
-----
Metahuman Form (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) +3
(Metatype) Form (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 2

Metahuman Form transforms the subject into one of the standard metatypes that comprise metahumanity, though the subject retains its own consciousness. This form is the same gender as the caster and generally shares other traits as well�"eyes of the same color, similar skin tone for the character’s ethnicity/metatype, distinctive scars and injuries, tattoos, piercings, etc...

Consult the Table below, and remove the subject's racial bonuses, and replace them with that of the desired metatype. The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the highest value modifier of the attributes being affected. Thus, Dwarf or Elf form must be cast at a minimum Force of 2, Ork form at Force 3, and Troll at Force 4. The subject's Mental attributes remain unchanged. This spell does not transform clothing and equipment.

Metatype B A R S INI
Dwarf +1 - -1 +2 -1
Elf - +1 - - -
Ork +3 - - +2 -
Troll +4 -1 - +4 -

Metatype form works like the Metahuman Form spell, but only allows the subject to change into a specific metatype. Each Metatype form is a different spell (Dwarf Form, Human Form, and so on).

The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the highest value of the attributes being affected. Her Mental attributes remain unchanged. This spell does not transform clothing and equipment.
-----
I've also removed the restricted target so that you can turn those nasty Humanis Policlub goons chasing you down the street into a bunch of dwarves. Which also gives an optional incentive to up the force and reasons you might care for more than one success, counterspelling still being in the picture as well.

[HappyDaze]

It's not bad, but I'd suggest a line that grants Low-Light, Thermographic, Increased Reach, Dermal Armor, etc. as appropriate to the form. Note that special attributes (i.e., a human's Edge) are not affected. I'd also suggest just going with a blanket Threshold above 0 to allow for Humans.

[Wombat]

How about this then?

Consult the Table below, and remove the subject's racial modifiers, and replace them with that of the desired metatype. This adjusts the subject's maximum attribute ratings, according to the subject's new metatype, and grants that metatype’s special abilities, such as Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision, +2 dice for Body Tests to resist pathogens and toxins, +1 Reach, or +1 natural armor (cumulative with worn armor). The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the highest value modifier of the attributes being affected, plus half the number of special abilities granted(rounded up). Thus, Human form must be cast at a minimum Force of 1, Elf form at Force 2, Dwarf form at Force 3, Ork form at Force 4, and Troll form at Force 6. The subject's Mental and Special attributes remain unchanged. This spell does not transform clothing and equipment.