Doctors As Shadowrunners, Viability of such. Options

[BlueMax]

I bet to differ. The guy who crawled under my sedan over the weekend has been elbow deep in cars since his was 6 (about thirty years, for reference), restores rusted out hulks as a hobby, and was able to diagnose my problem just by listening to the sound as he drove the car into the service bay. Acura might have only sent him to a quick training course, but he's probably spent far more time diagnosing and repairing automobiles than my doctor has treating patients.

A Ferarri mechanic is taken out to lunch by his client, a doctor. During lunch the mechanic asks

"We each work on complicated systems and I know my stuff, why don't I get paid as much to work on engines as you do to work on people?"

The doctor responds
"Try working on the engines while they are running"


BlueMax
/loves classic schtick

[Chrysalis]

There is the NPC I have in Behind the Shadows who is a naval diving medical officer. He's only 101 years old. Three years in the "Pacific Theatre" with a native level in Korean. Currently runs a (counter)intelligence network. Perfectionist, with a memory for minutae.

<<telex>>>

Name: William Bradley
Born: June 23, 1972
Languages spoken: English, Spanish, Japanese, Korean, German

Chronology:

Military Career:

1994 Graduated from the United States Naval Academy and was commissioned Lieutenant, Junior Grade.

1995, Graduated from the Naval Diving and Salvage Training Center (NDSTC) in Panama City, Florida

1995-2003, Served in both the United States and the Pacific theatre of operations.

2005, Earned a Medical Degree from Columbia University Medical Center, and married Jung Soon.

2005-2008, served in the Pacific theatre of operations, stationed out of Pearl Harbour, Hawaii.

2008-2010, At this point Commander, assisted, served in Japan being on the Staff of Plans, Policy, and Programs, and working on the United States on a controlled pull out of its military forces from Japan.

2010-2013, Military assistant to Paul Lambert, the assistant to the president for national security affairs.

2013-2016, Assistant chief of staff for the office of Naval Intelligence
2015, promoted to rear admiral
2016-2019, Deputy Director of the National Security Agency, Fort Meade, Maryland


Post-Military

2020, Director of national security studies, Hudson Institute, Indianapolis, Indiana
2020, Adjunct professor, political science, Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut.
Extensive publications; see bibliography below


<<End Telex>>

[nezumi]

I bet to differ. The guy who crawled under my sedan over the weekend has been elbow deep in cars since his was 6 (about thirty years, for reference), restores rusted out hulks as a hobby, and was able to diagnose my problem just by listening to the sound as he drove the car into the service bay. Acura might have only sent him to a quick training course, but he's probably spent far more time diagnosing and repairing automobiles than my doctor has treating patients.

Is that so? So do you suppose ALL mechanics are like this? And how many times has he made a mistake which resulted in substantial follow-up repairs? Do you suppose he was never a young, inexperienced mechanic, but was rather born with 30 years experience?

[SeriousPaul]

This thread does inspire the question how does one effectively simulate "Experience" in a PC/NPC?

[Method]

Welcome to Dumpshock.

To answer your question: do you mean in terms of game mechanics or roleplaying? Game mechanics is simple: Skill advancement and Edge. Roleplaying isn't quite so simple. You'd just have to do your best and make sure your GM understands the distinction between player and character knowledge/abilities. He wouldn't ask a player to demonstrate an actual hacking attempt against a government computer system to prove his hacker character knows what he's doing, right? And you better hope you don't have to cast a spell to prove that you can roleplay a mage....

[Dikotana]

I'm not sure what PhDs are doing here. If you get a medical degree, you are a Doctor of Medicine (MD) and, with post-graduate residency under your belt, presumably capable of practicing medicine. If you have a PhD, you are likely to be only tangentially involved in medicine. Biology, biochemistry, pharmacology, and other PhD programs might look medically relevant, and those who earn those degrees might work in medical research, but they do not see patients, rarely have any involvement in diagnosis, and perform no procedures. Actually, they are not allowed to work on/with patients, as they are not licensed medical professionals.

Let me put this another way: if you read all about cars, study the history of cars, and engineer car parts for a living, how qualified are you to drive if you've never sat behind the wheel?

[Method]

I was going to post something to that effect before, but it looked like this thread was dying so I didn't bother.

And for the record there are MD/PhD's as well, which are fully licensed doctors who also completed a PhD program before or during medical school. They have the same training, take the same licensing exams and complete a residency- the PhD is extra training on top of that.

[underaneonhalo]

I think I posted my fiancee's former docwagon medic a couple years ago. From what I remember she was part of a response team and one day realized that she had no idea who the hell she was risking her life for, maybe she was shooting at the good guys! She started using bliss to cope and was sacked by the company shortly thereafter. She turned to the shadows because she'd be able to choose just who's ass she was dodging lead for, and maybe make a difference while she was at it.

Also she was a junky.

[The Jake]

Ironically as the skill table states that a PhD (I.e. a doctorate) is Rating 6, all doctors are skill 6. Except in Australia, where they may be skill 5 if they are new.

EDIT: Be careful with that. If RAW states only people with a PhD qualify for Rating 6, then that doesn't leave a lot of room for characters who earn their stripes outside of school.

FWIW, even the Street Doc in SR4 has a Biotech of 5 IIRC...

- J.

[SeriousPaul]

Welcome to Dumpshock.

Thanks for the welcome back!

To answer your question: do you mean in terms of game mechanics or roleplaying?

I left it open ended on purpose. Everyone's game is a different mix of the two, fluff and crunch. One mans trash is another's treasure. In my opinion there is no wrong answer, as long as you're having fun.

Another fun angle that I think some people in this thread seem to be missing is incompetence. (Obviously not everyone missed it.) Obviously most people want to avoid this in PC's, but in NPC's it can be humorous-even deadly. For instance I work in a maximum security prison; and while technically all of our medical staff is certified by the state, and licensed...well frankly there's a reason they work at the prison, and not at a real job.

Still all in all it's nice to see a thread like this, that focuses on the world, and not the numbers!

[rathmun]

Very possibly, which is my point about the tables (which says that PhD is skill 6, which means that what the hell is the skill level of a specialist?)

Um, skill 6 + a specialty perhaps? Just a suggestion.

[nezumi]

Going back to page 99, it would seem rating 6 is "Innate/Mastered" (for Active/Knowledge respectively). 7 is "Expert". 8+ is "World-Class". Of course, this is applied to all skills equally. I would posit that a certified doctor in the UCAS would be 7-8 (but generally relying heavily on specializations). A doctor in a country like the CAS or Aztlan may be in the 5-7 range, and of course, once you get to third-world nations, it'll go down lower (hrm... does the term 'third-world' even apply with the entire, Cold War map completely rearranged?)

[Method]

I think the current terminology is "Developed" vs "Underdeveloped" worlds... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[nezumi]

Honestly, that sounds downright offensive to me. Is the culture or civilization of a thousand-year-old tribe in the Amazon basin not developed? Third-world is basically an arbitrary political division. But ultimately, the discussion is niether here nor there.

[DWC]

Honestly, that sounds downright offensive to me. Is the culture or civilization of a thousand-year-old tribe in the Amazon basin not developed? Third-world is basically an arbitrary political division. But ultimately, the discussion is niether here nor there.

It's an assessment of the stability of infrastructure, not a value judgement on government, society, or culture. "Developing Nations" are those who are in the process of building the systems to provide power, potable water, and reliable systems for the transportation of large volumes of goods to all their population centers.

[Method]

And in technical sociology-speak "Underdeveloped" doesn't simply mean "has not yet developed". It, like development, is the result of a process. In the case of underdevelopment tho, that process works *against* the society's ability to create and maintain infrastructure. The classic example would be Somalia where war famine and government corruption are causing that nation to fall further and further behind the rest of the world in terms of economic progress, human rights, etc.

By this definition some "first world" nations today would qualify as "underdeveloped" in SR.

[The Jake]

Are we talking medical doctors or other doctors?

I could easily see a Logic based skill monkey/hacker child prodigy type, ala. Sheldon Cooper - complete with the Obsessive-Compulsive and Inept negative qualities! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- J.

[eidolon]

If you can write a backstory that remotely makes any sense, you can be a doctor in the shadows. Hell, you can be a doctor in the shadows if you can't write a backstory that makes sense. It's just cooler if you do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

It's an assessment of the stability of infrastructure, not a value judgement on government, society, or culture.

But the term doesn't include the word 'infrastructure' (or, more specifically, economic infrastructure. A hunter-gatherer society still has infrastructure, just not one dedicated to the same services we expect for ourselves.) It's like if I called a group of poor math students 'mathematically retarded', but for convenience, just called them retarded.

[DWC]

But the term doesn't include the word 'infrastructure' (or, more specifically, economic infrastructure. A hunter-gatherer society still has infrastructure, just not one dedicated to the same services we expect for ourselves.) It's like if I called a group of poor math students 'mathematically retarded', but for convenience, just called them retarded.

It doesn't need to include the word infrastructure, much like saying you're a network engineer doesn't require you to specify that you work with computers. It's jargon, with an understood definition. Ask a civil or electrical engineer, or a macroeconomist about developing nations. He'll know what you mean. Ask a teacher about retarded children, and I'll bet you he or she doesn't automatically think of students who are specifically bad at math, mostly because retarded has a completely different definition.

[nezumi]

So it's okay to use an insulting term, as long as experts in the field know it has a second, non-insulting meaning.

[DWC]

So it's okay to use an insulting term, as long as experts in the field know it has a second, non-insulting meaning.

Of course it is. Would you say it was wrong of me to state that I'm using a chemical to retard the formation of a crystal structure to avoid undesired imperfections? It's a precise and technically correct use of the word, no matter how much someone else might be offended by the use of the same word in a completely different context.

[nezumi]

No, but that's because you're using the whole sentence. You are not saying "I'm using a retard to stop the wrong ones". Those long words arond the word 'retard' give it context. Saying 'undeveloped' without specifying 'economic' or 'infrastructure' means it's without context, and for most people, 'undeveloped' = 'sucky' or 'fail' or 'stupid' or 'behind'. If I said your house is undeveloped, you'd probably think it's less desirable than a fully developed house. At least I would! Yet somehow we think it's cool to say someone's country is undeveloped, like that's okay because we mean the economic infrastructure is undeveloped compared to that of other, economically and politically dominating nations.

[BlueMax]

If you said my House was underdeveloped, I would ask you to do it on record.

Then I would ask you to explain to the county taxperson why the shouldn't be charging me so much each year.

And yes, that's exactly what I would do.

BlueMax
/I have two boys
//I feel lucking the walls are still standing

[DWC]

No, but that's because you're using the whole sentence. You are not saying "I'm using a retard to stop the wrong ones". Those long words arond the word 'retard' give it context. Saying 'undeveloped' without specifying 'economic' or 'infrastructure' means it's without context, and for most people, 'undeveloped' = 'sucky' or 'fail' or 'stupid' or 'behind'. If I said your house is undeveloped, you'd probably think it's less desirable than a fully developed house. At least I would! Yet somehow we think it's cool to say someone's country is undeveloped, like that's okay because we mean the economic infrastructure is undeveloped compared to that of other, economically and politically dominating nations.

I see where you are approaching this from. When talking about a nation, which was what was happening, referring to it as "Developing" or "Underdeveloped" is the context that makes the meaning clear, or at least it does for me. For someone who isn't aware of the subtlety of how the word is being used, it does sound like a condescending indictment of a potentially extremely advanced civilisation with a long and illustrious history. However, someone else's kneejerk reaction, born out of their ignorance and personal prejudices, doesn't make me a bad person.

By the way, if someone describes my house as undeveloped, I'm going to laugh in their face, since undeveloped real estate is empty space with nothing built on it. The presence of a house on a piece of property precludes it from being undeveloped.