How likely is it that a doctor, or at least a medically-skilled character, would go shadowrunning? Or would they just set up a clinic somewhere?

Well, depends on whether you mean a fully-credentialed doctor who didn't get busted for drug use, performing unorthodox procedures on patients, etc.; or med school students and interns that failed out for doing the same, or veterinarians passing themselves off as such...so on and so forth.

You can use a lot of the same reasons for a doctor to be a Shadowrunner that you can for a magician to be a Shadowrunner. They're both people who are desirable and you'd expect them to find a nice, secure life somwhere. But sometimes they're wanted for past misdeeds. Sometimes they just don't fit in (e.g. mentally unstable, grudge against the corporate world, thrill-addicted, BTL habit). Maybe the doc just killed one too many patients. Or maybe in a world where autodocs and skillwires exist, they just don't cut it in the corporate world anymore (if you want to do a pretty dystopian take on things).

I'll say this, anyway. Nobody better knows how to kill someone than a doctor.

K,

One could also be to gather experience and capital for opening one's own clinic. What better place to learn about gunshot wounds and alike injuries than to be near when they happen. Or one is little goody two shoes and wants to help the needy for those street level games.

Well, that's true. For people under anesthesia on an OR table... I suspect they have less experience kicking people to death in bars that the average thug.

*Sigh* Helping out the unfortunate didn't even occur to me as one of the possible reasons. I need to go and recharge my soul.

An SF medic (19D) is a 'doctor' in SR, though they don't have a medical license.

Having spent so long fighting diseases and wounds to save lives, the doctor has realized it is the humanity as a whole that's sick, not the individual. Now, the doctor is actually out there to fight the good fight and get rid of the diseases haunting humanity known as the megacorps.

Good luck, doc.

I play a Doctor in one group and there is one in the group I run.

My characters motivations have *nothing* to do with his skills but they cannot be accomplished through legal channels, so he found another way. He is a proud, active and unstoppable Human itarian.

The character in my group was a living cliche

* a member of Lone Star Medical
* Two months from retirement
* framed for a crime


But he likes playing cliche and who the heck am I to stop him?

BlueMax

They might also have graduated medical school amidst a government takeover of the healthcare system and decided they didn't want to be a government employee with $200K in school debt... oh wait thats RL...

Seriously though, I will concur with many of the ideas posted above. Its unlikely that a top notch doctor would end up on the streets because their training and skills would be far to valuable. But even today there are some "doctors" of questionable esteem out there. Some are "excused" from their residencies after their intern (first) year because of poor performance (which by the way doesn't preclude one from practice). There are also a lot of licensing issues regarding doctors who are trained in one country and immigrate to another. Sometimes they have to re-do large portions of their training. I can easily imagine a situation wherein the foreign medical school graduate simple decided to forgo licensing and open a shadow clinic.

Beyond that, any of the myriad of reasons why a good corporate citizen would take to the shadows would work for a doctor. Lost their license and SIN in the Crash? Maybe. Couldn't take to drudgery of corporate wageslavery? Probably. Fed up with the amoral waste of life dictated by corporate policy? Definitely. They might have also been involved in unethical human experimentation and needed to "disappear". Maybe they still know things that the corporation doesn't want to see the light of day...

I would say that as a character concept its definitely feasible. Like any other character you just need to put a little thought into the background story.

There is a phenomenal old doc here in Seattle- Dr. Copass. A legend in the field he ran the emergency department at Harborview for decades. He pretty much single-handedly innovated the EMS system in Seattle, which is among the best in the world. Anyway, when he teaches medical students he talks about how important it is to ask people exactly were they live because if you know what's going on in that area you'll understand what they go through. The guy knew what drugs were hot where, which gangs were killing each other, and apparently there is a whole "culture" which revolves around stabbing people in certain ways so as to send a specific messages. His level of "street knowledge" was impressive.

Here is a profile of him from many years ago. The guy would be an amazing basis for a SR contact.

hi hi

I played a doctor once, gave him a good logic, maxed out the biotech skill group, got a rating 6 medkit, then proceeded to fail almost every medical roll I ever attempted, sometimes to the detriment of the patient. It got to the point where the other players avoided my "care" like the plague. Not sure how legitimate doctors in shadowrun are supposed to avoid killing their patients on a regular basis, perhaps I was missing something.

It all worked out in the end though as the character evolved into a hacker.

Just to point out, if you want to be taken seriously as a doctor in SR, you need to have skills higher than what the best skillwires can produce or you're easily replaced. That means those docotrs with less than a skill of 6(!) are still in training and their skills can easily be slotted by anyone with the wires (or an appropriate drone).

I played a character who was a DocWagon EMT/sorceress who got disillusioned. Outfits like DocWagon, and EMTs working in all of the mini-wars and corporate maneuvers, probably result in lots of people trickling to the shadows. They would be a real meatgrinder to work for, and would probably toss you to the curb as soon as you got burnt out/too stressed/too exhausted/etc.

Yea but not being able to blow edge on that stabilize check kinda bites.

This is the difference between a top surgeon and a hack in 2073. Sure, you can get checked out by "Dr." Joe Blow at the community clinic for a quarter the price of seeing a real doctor, but if his knowsoft guesses wrong, your chances of survival just tanked to single digits. Even a lousy doctor who still actually went to med school (Logic 2, Medicine 3) has only a 2% chance of glitching. With 4 edge per month (average, +1 for a human, because metas are mostly in that "disadvantaged" economic group) to negate those glitches, thanks to the background knowledge gained by actually going to college, Dr. Dumb-but-Determined has a vastly greater chance of making the right diagnosis for you (or, at least, referring you to the right specialist instead of just prescribing you the wrong antibiotic and washing his hands).


I want this guy to be my doctor. Maybe I'll settle for having him be the patch-me-up contact for every SR character I make from now on.

On the whole a doctor as a shadowrunner is no less likely then all the elite special forces operatives that pop up from time to time?

He is pretty bad ass. His SOP for fire survivors is to xray their ankles, because you never know if they tried to jump out a window. He can tell you the most likely injury a patient will have from an MVA based on the make and model of the car they were in. I once sat for a lecture where he described in detail how femur fractures were a major cause of casualties in the Battle of the Somme. The guy is a genius. Of coarse, having him review your charts is terrifying...

Hey! I'd like to think that it takes a Logic higher than 2 to finish med school...

Well you're right in that even with more nations and corps producing SFOs they would still be as rare as doctors, if not more so. But there is a flaw in your reasoning. It seems logical that a dude trained to kick ass for a government would turn to kicking ass for money when the government gig goes sideways. For a doctor the route from practice to the shadows doesn't seem like such a straight shot.

On the other hand, the doctor is moving to a less stressful career with less chance of lawsuits and lower insurance fees.

he never said the guy *finished* med school, just that he'd been there (strictly speaking, he also didn't say the guy studied at a med school either, just that he'd been to one... then again, depending on the shadow clinic, that may not be entirely unlikely either...)

on a side note, there's plenty of stupid doctors out there (and smart ones too, of course, the trick is figuring out which is which). consider how many dumb mistakes are made by doctors every year (and yes, i really do mean dumb. we're talking mistakes that are blindingly stupid. granted, such mistakes are made in most fields quite regularly, but the difference is that in welding, you make a dumb mistake, you can generally fix it without much of a problem, whereas in medicine you may have just amputated the wrong limb, or given a heart transplant to the wrong person...); sure, the drone has no protection from glitching, and no edge. but a drone with pilot 6 and a rating 4 autosoft is less likely to glitch in the first place, and possibly has a larger DP than some doctors even if the doctor does spend edge (like that log 2 skill 3 edge 4 chap earlier) just some thoughts

QFT

Which is, of course, why I qualified it by saying "or medically skilled character."

Though I think you've given quite a number of other reasons that a doc might run. He might even be out there simply to learn the neighborhood!

We have of course assumed that this is a "properly" qualified doctor. In UCAS and other places, we have now had more than one generation growing up SINless. Is it not possible that there are, for want of a better word, native schools. Or perhaps apprenticeships. I could totally see some local Barrens community have an equivalent to a doctor or something, perhaps with a couple of apprentices learning the trade. What's the population of Redmond? Half a million? It could have started with a single rogue doc who became SINless for whatever reason, and got things going. What do you need to become a doctor? Lots of medical text books? Okay - they can fit on a chip. Corpses to disect and practice on? Hello - Barrens! Lots of study.

Okay, I've done a disservice to real doctors in putting that in three casual statements, but in principle, I could see this. I find the image of some kid curled up with a Commlink and some pirated Knowsofts watching trids of bones being set an image that fits very well in the Shadowrun setting.

True, but if he just wants to avoid lawsuits and insurance there are lots of other options- administration, education, research, consulting, moving to an underdeveloped country. And the shadows have their own "insurance" system, which can be more expensive. The guy from State Farm isn't going to cut off your fingers if you don't pay on time....

This is a great point. I could totally see this happening in places like the Ork Underground and the Barrens. Plus you wouldn't even need to do everything on bodies- you could practice actual surgical techniques in VR.

Or funding your way through med school working as a chef for the 162's.

Reasons have been covered pretty thoroughly, and you can always go with a combination of reasons. My doc runs under several of the reasons mentioned. Thrill-seeker, looking for fame (she's running in LA), helping the low people, lost license due to unauthorized experimentation and misappropriation of funds. She also learned that megacorps are not the shining bastions of righteousness she was raised to believe.

You don't really need to put more than 3 or 4 points in the Biotech skillgroup to make an effective medic, in my experience. Ducky, my doc mentioned above, does it with a Logic of 5 and a skill of 4, plus a few bonuses from 'ware and supplies.

If you play a doc, I strongly suggest you put points into other skills instead of dropping the 60 BP to make a super-doc. Make yourself irreplaceable by being useful even if your teammates don't get shot up (a highly unlikely situation with some groups, I know). If you want to play up the Doctor angle, there are still all sorts of other skills a Doc would reasonably have. Agility and Unarmed combat are things you want from the word go (slap patches FTW). Knife skill lets you use scalpels as melee combat weapons, and Pistols will let you use Supersquirts and Pain Inducers. Intimidate and the Influence skillgroup are good and make plenty of sense (somebody's gotta talk that troll down when he's thrashing around, after all). chemistry will let you use the items in your medkit to kill or incapacitate an opponent a dozen different ways without using a slap-patch. With Chemistry and Explosives, you can probably walk into a Stuffer Shack and get what you need to make a few nasty things. Docs also make good Hackers and Mages (all use logic-linked skills heavily), and good Faces if you take the Influence skills.

To clarify, do you has a doctorate or mediacally skilled? Most combat troops get basic first aid training. Most gangers end up learning how to clean a knife wound with sythohol. Every none magical character in my team has bio tech.
I have had burn out mages being street docs and anphetamean hooked ex surgery intern street doc.

For me orks and trolls make great street docs, because if they dont get that scholarship by selling their soul, its street or nothing.
I have a runner Buddest troll phys ad, who dreams of becoming a doctor. Works night and day at it, but does not have the background education or tech savvy to be a REAL doctor. Runs to get the cash to treat his community, uses his mojo and basic biotech to do the best he can. But hell, even the orc gangers think a troll who does not charge is to stupid to patch them up.

Ironically as the skill table states that a PhD (I.e. a doctorate) is Rating 6, all doctors are skill 6. Except in Australia, where they may be skill 5 if they are new.

Hurrah!

Side note: the SR 'sample skill levels' are entirely retarded upon analysis. If I have a masters in software engineering, I have a software skill group of 5? But becoming a competent shootin guy requires being hard enough to go train with the SAS or other super special forces ninjas.

Out of curiosity, what is unique about Australia's system?

In most countries I understand you need to gain a post graduate doctorate to become a board certified doctor. Which is skill 6 in SR

In Australia and some other Commonwealth countries (including I think the UK, not sure) is possible to undertake the equivalent of undergraduate and masters degree to become a board certified doctor. Which is skill 5 in SR.

Having spent various portions of my life at hospitals, I would say most doctors are actually around the mechanical equivalent of 3-4. Those who maintain an active role in research may be 5-6.

If only there was a mechanical representation for bedside manner...


BlueMax

Very possibly, which is my point about the tables (which says that PhD is skill 6, which means that what the hell is the skill level of a specialist?)

I definitely agree on the 3-4. There's a great difference between a doctor and a medical researcher. One tends to make advances in the field, while the other keeps plodding along on someone else's research. One's a technical skill that can be replaced with skillwires, while the other is a knowledge skill.

And there is a mechanical representation for bedside manner. The Influence skillgroup, and also intimidate for those unruly patients that just won't listen to reason.

I have a player who did this. His character was a combat medic in the corp wars. Returned with a physical deformity and, if memory serves, no SIN for some reason. He ran a clinic to actually help people. He mixed it up between charity work and just work for poor people. Not much of a runner, though. After the party brought back an attacking helicopter, he almost had a fist fight with another character (as more KE troops are en route) about whether to stabilize the survivors or kill them.

I would agree that not all doctor's would have a 6. There is a vast difference between a PhD and a M.D. There is also a big difference between doctors that practice community medicine and those in academic medical centers. But it is inaccurate to say that only those that do research would have high skill ratings.

If you ask me (and I'll tell you even if you didn't ) medical skills would break down along the established hierarchy of medicine. A med student would be at a 3, resident 4, chief resident or fellow 5, and attendings (the grizzled old veteran's) at 6. Sub-specialties and research interests would be a specialization. And exceptional doctors (Cushing, Murray, Blalock, Debakey, etc) would be at 7 + a specialization and have things named after them. I would put a trained medic or nurse practitioner in the 3-4 range- easily replaced by skillsofts or autodocs (as would be med students and residents, but we need those to get to the 7+ super docs).

When you say Nurse at 3-4, can I assume you not throwing grizzled veteran RN's into that mix?


BlueMax

Thats an independent nurse practitioners (APRN, FNP, etc) - they have more training than just an RN. I would say your run of the mill RN is 2-3 (depending on where they work) and a veteran RN might be 4 (maybe even higher).

If you follow the skill chart, junior nurses with the relevant degree are skill 4, without the degree would be less.

Assuming you follow the chart obviously.

Depends on the skill in question. First Aid (in the basic care of patients sense)? Sure. 4 sounds reasonable. Medicine? Not likely. Of coarse I probably have a different conception of how the Biotech skills work...

In other words I would use neither the skill chart nor thier descriptions of the skills in this case. But that's just me.

18D

http://www.goarmy.com/JobDetail.do?id=33

19D is CavScout

Here's how you play a doctor. Give him some level of psychosis, and an unnatural level of aptitude in demolitions.

Drones? Screw that expensive to replace stuff. Just kidnap people, shoot them full of drugs, implant a few explosives in their body and give them some hypnotic suggestions.

Now you have walking, breathing, thinking bombs. Blow up walls, vehicles, people, you name it! Though the blowing up walls bit make take a couple of martyrs to take down the wall.

Biotech + Chemistry is a fun combination if you're looking for new and interesting ways to make people unconscious or dead which fits in most shadowrun teams to a greater or lesser extent. Plenty of the opposition load up on armour to stop bullets and sharp objects, anti-shock to stop electrical stun attacks, magical defence and the like, but unless they want to spend their lives running around in a chemsuit and gas mask they're pretty much screwed against chem or bio warfare attacks.

I think a lot of Doctors & Nurses would be better defined by their skill sets rather than the level of one skill.

Thus A nurse or doctor may have a Medicine 4 (Pediatrics +2), Chemistry (Pediatrics +2), Bedside Manner (Pediatrics +2), etc is going to have a diffferent dice pool from a doctor who may be a neurosurgeon.

That academic MD is going to have a different set of skills and values than a General Practioner or Family Medicine MD. They all may have the same Doctor skill level but the supporting skillset would be different which would result in different capabilities.

The doctor character would have biotech of 6 (this is going off sample characters, as well as the rules for cyberware installation), and four or five maxed out knowledge skills, plus some points in computers and electronics and a few other odds and ends. This is mostly because Shadowrun isn't made to be MedicRun, and so doesn't support the whole slew of skills actually appropriate, so we get a bit of a break.

Wrong! Medical doctors rarely, if ever, have a PhD. Those with a PhD will most likely be researchers and thus probably not the folks you want treating you.

The training to become a medical doctor is a postgraduate programme, yes, but it is primarily practically-based rather than academically-based. Having attended medical school I can say this with confidence.

A trained medical professional (like a doctor, for example) will likely have the Medicine skill at 3 or 4. A specialist in Accident & Emergency might have First Aid at the same level. I think it's unlikely that all doctors will have the Biotech group at 3 or 4.

Also, doctors tend to specialise very narrowly. So that Medicine skill of 3 or 4 is actually boosted to 5 or 6 when they're dealing with their area of expertise, be that gynaecology or paediatrics or whatever else.

What a strong statement!

M.D./PhD's may be rare in the UK but they are increasingly more common in the US especially in academic medical centers, which in our system tend to be the *highest* level of care. So that M.D./PhD might very well be the one you want taking care of you- he/she might be the best there is. Again I think there are some big differences between your system and ours (for now).

Otherwise I would agree with the rest of your statements, more or less.

Out of curiosity, what do you practice?

I would tend to hope that my doctor, who spent 8-10 years studying in university and residency, would be better skilled at his trade than say my auto mechanic, who spent a year or two.

I bet to differ. The guy who crawled under my sedan over the weekend has been elbow deep in cars since his was 6 (about thirty years, for reference), restores rusted out hulks as a hobby, and was able to diagnose my problem just by listening to the sound as he drove the car into the service bay. Acura might have only sent him to a quick training course, but he's probably spent far more time diagnosing and repairing automobiles than my doctor has treating patients.

This might be where the complimentary knowledge skill comes in handy.

A PhD might not actually have that much experience treating wounds and what not, but he should be knowledgeable enough (various knowledge skills) to have seen most diseases, injury, and other medical conditions. His 'expertise' is more like the various knowledge skills he picked up.

A team medic on shadowrunner would probably treat gun wounds and various cuts and injury better than a PhD can, thanks to his intimacy with the subject matter. He is likely to have more knowledge in gun wounds and what not than the PhD ever will. This should be reflected.

However, when some rare disease strike your shadowrunning team, the team medic wouldn't only be able to offer limited assistance. You would have to find someone very knowledgeable or a specialist in the subject matter.