BlueMax
Aug 12 2009, 09:24 PM
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 12 2009, 11:55 AM)

I bet to differ. The guy who crawled under my sedan over the weekend has been elbow deep in cars since his was 6 (about thirty years, for reference), restores rusted out hulks as a hobby, and was able to diagnose my problem just by listening to the sound as he drove the car into the service bay. Acura might have only sent him to a quick training course, but he's probably spent far more time diagnosing and repairing automobiles than my doctor has treating patients.
A Ferarri mechanic is taken out to lunch by his client, a doctor. During lunch the mechanic asks
"We each work on complicated systems and I know my stuff, why don't I get paid as much to work on engines as you do to work on people?"
The doctor responds
"Try working on the engines while they are running"
BlueMax
/loves classic schtick
Chrysalis
Aug 12 2009, 09:46 PM
There is the NPC I have in Behind the Shadows who is a naval diving medical officer. He's only 101 years old. Three years in the "Pacific Theatre" with a native level in Korean. Currently runs a (counter)intelligence network. Perfectionist, with a memory for minutae.
<<telex>>>
Name: William Bradley
Born: June 23, 1972
Languages spoken: English, Spanish, Japanese, Korean, German
Chronology:
Military Career:
1994 Graduated from the United States Naval Academy and was commissioned Lieutenant, Junior Grade.
1995, Graduated from the Naval Diving and Salvage Training Center (NDSTC) in Panama City, Florida
1995-2003, Served in both the United States and the Pacific theatre of operations.
2005, Earned a Medical Degree from Columbia University Medical Center, and married Jung Soon.
2005-2008, served in the Pacific theatre of operations, stationed out of Pearl Harbour, Hawaii.
2008-2010, At this point Commander, assisted, served in Japan being on the Staff of Plans, Policy, and Programs, and working on the United States on a controlled pull out of its military forces from Japan.
2010-2013, Military assistant to Paul Lambert, the assistant to the president for national security affairs.
2013-2016, Assistant chief of staff for the office of Naval Intelligence
2015, promoted to rear admiral
2016-2019, Deputy Director of the National Security Agency, Fort Meade, Maryland
Post-Military
2020, Director of national security studies, Hudson Institute, Indianapolis, Indiana
2020, Adjunct professor, political science, Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut.
Extensive publications; see bibliography below
<<End Telex>>
nezumi
Aug 13 2009, 12:15 PM
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 12 2009, 02:55 PM)

I bet to differ. The guy who crawled under my sedan over the weekend has been elbow deep in cars since his was 6 (about thirty years, for reference), restores rusted out hulks as a hobby, and was able to diagnose my problem just by listening to the sound as he drove the car into the service bay. Acura might have only sent him to a quick training course, but he's probably spent far more time diagnosing and repairing automobiles than my doctor has treating patients.
Is that so? So do you suppose ALL mechanics are like this? And how many times has he made a mistake which resulted in substantial follow-up repairs? Do you suppose he was never a young, inexperienced mechanic, but was rather born with 30 years experience?
SeriousPaul
Aug 19 2009, 02:57 AM
This thread does inspire the question how does one effectively simulate "Experience" in a PC/NPC?
Method
Aug 19 2009, 03:21 AM
Welcome to Dumpshock.
To answer your question: do you mean in terms of game mechanics or roleplaying? Game mechanics is simple: Skill advancement and Edge. Roleplaying isn't quite so simple. You'd just have to do your best and make sure your GM understands the distinction between player and character knowledge/abilities. He wouldn't ask a player to demonstrate an actual hacking attempt against a government computer system to prove his hacker character knows what he's doing, right? And you better hope you don't have to cast a spell to prove that you can roleplay a mage....
Dikotana
Aug 19 2009, 04:29 AM
I'm not sure what PhDs are doing here. If you get a medical degree, you are a Doctor of Medicine (MD) and, with post-graduate residency under your belt, presumably capable of practicing medicine. If you have a PhD, you are likely to be only tangentially involved in medicine. Biology, biochemistry, pharmacology, and other PhD programs might look medically relevant, and those who earn those degrees might work in medical research, but they do not see patients, rarely have any involvement in diagnosis, and perform no procedures. Actually, they are not allowed to work on/with patients, as they are not licensed medical professionals.
Let me put this another way: if you read all about cars, study the history of cars, and engineer car parts for a living, how qualified are you to drive if you've never sat behind the wheel?
Method
Aug 19 2009, 05:45 AM
I was going to post something to that effect before, but it looked like this thread was dying so I didn't bother.
And for the record there are MD/PhD's as well, which are fully licensed doctors who also completed a PhD program before or during medical school. They have the same training, take the same licensing exams and complete a residency- the PhD is extra training on top of that.
underaneonhalo
Aug 19 2009, 06:31 AM
I think I posted my fiancee's former docwagon medic a couple years ago. From what I remember she was part of a response team and one day realized that she had no idea who the hell she was risking her life for, maybe she was shooting at the good guys! She started using bliss to cope and was sacked by the company shortly thereafter. She turned to the shadows because she'd be able to choose just who's ass she was dodging lead for, and maybe make a difference while she was at it.
Also she was a junky.
The Jake
Aug 19 2009, 08:36 AM
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 10 2009, 02:16 AM)

Ironically as the skill table states that a PhD (I.e. a doctorate) is Rating 6, all doctors are skill 6. Except in Australia, where they may be skill 5 if they are new.
EDIT: Be careful with that. If RAW states only people with a PhD qualify for Rating 6, then that doesn't leave a lot of room for characters who earn their stripes outside of school.
FWIW, even the Street Doc in SR4 has a Biotech of 5 IIRC...
- J.
SeriousPaul
Aug 19 2009, 12:44 PM
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 18 2009, 10:21 PM)

Welcome to Dumpshock.
Thanks for the welcome back!
QUOTE
To answer your question: do you mean in terms of game mechanics or roleplaying?
I left it open ended on purpose. Everyone's game is a different mix of the two, fluff and crunch. One mans trash is another's treasure. In my opinion there is no wrong answer, as long as you're having fun.
Another fun angle that I think some people in this thread seem to be missing is incompetence. (Obviously not everyone missed it.) Obviously most people want to avoid this in PC's, but in NPC's it can be humorous-even deadly. For instance I work in a maximum security prison; and while technically all of our medical staff is certified by the state, and licensed...well frankly there's a reason they work at the prison, and not at a real job.
Still all in all it's nice to see a thread like this, that focuses on the world, and not the numbers!
rathmun
Aug 19 2009, 01:14 PM
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 10 2009, 12:43 AM)

Very possibly, which is my point about the tables (which says that PhD is skill 6, which means that what the hell is the skill level of a specialist?)
Um, skill 6 + a specialty perhaps? Just a suggestion.
nezumi
Aug 19 2009, 04:16 PM
Going back to page 99, it would seem rating 6 is "Innate/Mastered" (for Active/Knowledge respectively). 7 is "Expert". 8+ is "World-Class". Of course, this is applied to all skills equally. I would posit that a certified doctor in the UCAS would be 7-8 (but generally relying heavily on specializations). A doctor in a country like the CAS or Aztlan may be in the 5-7 range, and of course, once you get to third-world nations, it'll go down lower (hrm... does the term 'third-world' even apply with the entire, Cold War map completely rearranged?)
Method
Aug 19 2009, 04:23 PM
I think the current terminology is "Developed" vs "Underdeveloped" worlds...
nezumi
Aug 19 2009, 08:21 PM
Honestly, that sounds downright offensive to me. Is the culture or civilization of a thousand-year-old tribe in the Amazon basin not developed? Third-world is basically an arbitrary political division. But ultimately, the discussion is niether here nor there.
DWC
Aug 19 2009, 08:25 PM
QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 19 2009, 03:21 PM)

Honestly, that sounds downright offensive to me. Is the culture or civilization of a thousand-year-old tribe in the Amazon basin not developed? Third-world is basically an arbitrary political division. But ultimately, the discussion is niether here nor there.
It's an assessment of the stability of infrastructure, not a value judgement on government, society, or culture. "Developing Nations" are those who are in the process of building the systems to provide power, potable water, and reliable systems for the transportation of large volumes of goods to all their population centers.
Method
Aug 19 2009, 08:37 PM
And in technical sociology-speak "Underdeveloped" doesn't simply mean "has not yet developed". It, like development, is the result of a process. In the case of underdevelopment tho, that process works *against* the society's ability to create and maintain infrastructure. The classic example would be Somalia where war famine and government corruption are causing that nation to fall further and further behind the rest of the world in terms of economic progress, human rights, etc.
By this definition some "first world" nations today would qualify as "underdeveloped" in SR.
The Jake
Aug 20 2009, 12:37 AM
Are we talking medical doctors or other doctors?
I could easily see a Logic based skill monkey/hacker child prodigy type, ala. Sheldon Cooper - complete with the Obsessive-Compulsive and Inept negative qualities!

- J.
eidolon
Aug 20 2009, 02:37 AM
If you can write a backstory that remotely makes any sense, you can be a doctor in the shadows. Hell, you can be a doctor in the shadows if you can't write a backstory that makes sense. It's just cooler if you do.
nezumi
Aug 20 2009, 02:28 PM
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 19 2009, 04:25 PM)

It's an assessment of the stability of infrastructure, not a value judgement on government, society, or culture.
But the term doesn't include the word 'infrastructure' (or, more specifically, economic infrastructure. A hunter-gatherer society still has infrastructure, just not one dedicated to the same services we expect for ourselves.) It's like if I called a group of poor math students 'mathematically retarded', but for convenience, just called them retarded.
DWC
Aug 20 2009, 02:47 PM
QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 20 2009, 09:28 AM)

But the term doesn't include the word 'infrastructure' (or, more specifically, economic infrastructure. A hunter-gatherer society still has infrastructure, just not one dedicated to the same services we expect for ourselves.) It's like if I called a group of poor math students 'mathematically retarded', but for convenience, just called them retarded.
It doesn't need to include the word infrastructure, much like saying you're a network engineer doesn't require you to specify that you work with computers. It's jargon, with an understood definition. Ask a civil or electrical engineer, or a macroeconomist about developing nations. He'll know what you mean. Ask a teacher about retarded children, and I'll bet you he or she doesn't automatically think of students who are specifically bad at math, mostly because retarded has a completely different definition.
nezumi
Aug 20 2009, 03:39 PM
So it's okay to use an insulting term, as long as experts in the field know it has a second, non-insulting meaning.
DWC
Aug 20 2009, 03:49 PM
QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 20 2009, 10:39 AM)

So it's okay to use an insulting term, as long as experts in the field know it has a second, non-insulting meaning.
Of course it is. Would you say it was wrong of me to state that I'm using a chemical to retard the formation of a crystal structure to avoid undesired imperfections? It's a precise and technically correct use of the word, no matter how much someone else might be offended by the use of the same word in a completely different context.
nezumi
Aug 20 2009, 06:17 PM
No, but that's because you're using the whole sentence. You are not saying "I'm using a retard to stop the wrong ones". Those long words arond the word 'retard' give it context. Saying 'undeveloped' without specifying 'economic' or 'infrastructure' means it's without context, and for most people, 'undeveloped' = 'sucky' or 'fail' or 'stupid' or 'behind'. If I said your house is undeveloped, you'd probably think it's less desirable than a fully developed house. At least I would! Yet somehow we think it's cool to say someone's country is undeveloped, like that's okay because we mean the economic infrastructure is undeveloped compared to that of other, economically and politically dominating nations.
BlueMax
Aug 20 2009, 06:21 PM
If you said my House was underdeveloped, I would ask you to do it on record.
Then I would ask you to explain to the county taxperson why the shouldn't be charging me so much each year.
And yes, that's exactly what I would do.
BlueMax
/I have two boys
//I feel lucking the walls are still standing
DWC
Aug 20 2009, 06:40 PM
QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 20 2009, 01:17 PM)

No, but that's because you're using the whole sentence. You are not saying "I'm using a retard to stop the wrong ones". Those long words arond the word 'retard' give it context. Saying 'undeveloped' without specifying 'economic' or 'infrastructure' means it's without context, and for most people, 'undeveloped' = 'sucky' or 'fail' or 'stupid' or 'behind'. If I said your house is undeveloped, you'd probably think it's less desirable than a fully developed house. At least I would! Yet somehow we think it's cool to say someone's country is undeveloped, like that's okay because we mean the economic infrastructure is undeveloped compared to that of other, economically and politically dominating nations.
I see where you are approaching this from. When talking about a nation, which was what was happening, referring to it as "Developing" or "Underdeveloped" is the context that makes the meaning clear, or at least it does for me. For someone who isn't aware of the subtlety of how the word is being used, it does sound like a condescending indictment of a potentially extremely advanced civilisation with a long and illustrious history. However, someone else's kneejerk reaction, born out of their ignorance and personal prejudices, doesn't make me a bad person.
By the way, if someone describes my house as undeveloped, I'm going to laugh in their face, since undeveloped real estate is empty space with nothing built on it. The presence of a house on a piece of property precludes it from being undeveloped.
BlueMax
Aug 20 2009, 06:56 PM
QUOTE (DWC @ Aug 20 2009, 10:40 AM)

By the way, if someone describes my house as undeveloped, I'm going to laugh in their face, since undeveloped real estate is empty space with nothing built on it. The presence of a house on a piece of property precludes it from being undeveloped.
This! and then they cannot tax me on the house "AKA the development"
BlueMax
Method
Aug 20 2009, 08:55 PM
Boy that context sure is a funny thing...
Its interesting to me how something that would otherwise be an objective statement of fact becomes an issue because of a value judgement someone made about the terminology.
SeriousPaul
Aug 20 2009, 09:00 PM
Can we take the I'm offended game to PM, and get back on track? This was a cool thread.
BlueMax
Aug 20 2009, 09:08 PM
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 20 2009, 12:55 PM)

Boy that context sure is a funny thing...
Its interesting to me how something that would otherwise be an objective statement of fact becomes an issue because of a value judgement someone made about the terminology.
I have learned in my various times of active Dumpshock, its about the "Context switching".
BlueMax
Method
Aug 21 2009, 12:15 AM
QUOTE (SeriousPaul @ Aug 20 2009, 01:00 PM)

Can we take the I'm offended game to PM, and get back on track? This was a cool thread.
I couldn't agree more, but we need something doctorly to talk about.
Chrysalis
Aug 21 2009, 12:18 AM
Supposing you are a doctor in Shadowrun. How much does knowledge help and how much do you need surgical suites, equipment and medicine to be able to function properly?
I mean here in Libya, the clinic really does not have medicine, you ave to go the pharmacy for that. Even saline solutions you have to first pay for.
What kind of equipment would a doctor need to be able to conduct cyberware replacement and maintenance?
Paul
Aug 21 2009, 12:20 AM
Well Doctor's, obviously not all-but many could; are well educated, meticulous and smart. That's a good combination for somebody looking to make a living as a Professional Criminal. Add in some specialty skills, and well-as an NPC they could be pretty daunting. A great example in modern pop culture is the recent introduction of Hush in Batman comic books.
Paul
Aug 21 2009, 12:27 AM
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Aug 20 2009, 08:18 PM)

What kind of equipment would a doctor need to be able to conduct cyberware replacement and maintenance?
I suspect it would depend on how complicated you want to get, not to mention how much quality control you're worried about. (Infection and disease control; PPE, etc...)
I think the nature of question would be best answered by a "Shop" at minimum, more likely a facility. If I were GM'ing I'd charge an arm and a leg for specialty equipment. (Anywhere from 3 to 10 times the price, depending on where the Facility was being set up.) I know for sure I'd make the players play a lot of this out in game.
Method
Aug 21 2009, 02:01 AM
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Aug 20 2009, 04:18 PM)

Supposing you are a doctor in Shadowrun. How much does knowledge help and how much do you need surgical suites, equipment and medicine to be able to function properly?
Medical knowledge would be exceedingly easy to come by in SR because of the Matrix and the ability of doctors to train in virtual reality. Even today medical texts that have been in publication for over a hundred years are moving to online editions and you have things like Epocrates for the iPhone. In fact,
very there are a few medical schools in the US are
still aren't offering gross anatomy because its significantly cheeper to teach students with computerized tutorials. So in answer to your question, knowledge would certainly not be a limiting factor.
Access to drugs and tech on the other hand would vary greatly, based on where you're at in the SR world. But you have to consider that in a world where squatters have commlinks, shadowy street types have ways of get all kinds of stuff that you can't buy at the corner Stuffer Shack. A pharmacist contact would be worth the BP.
QUOTE
What kind of equipment would a doctor need to be able to conduct cyberware replacement and maintenance?
I think that by 2070 the stuff a surgeon could do with even a reasonably well equipped clinic would boggle our minds. Consider for a moment the current trends in minimally invasive surgery and ambulatory surgery. For example, used to be that have your gall bladder out was a pretty invasive surgery- a 10 cm subcostal incision, metal retractors, higher risk of liver laceration and *at least* a night in the hospital. Now-a-days its done laproscopically as a routine out patient surgery. A trained surgeon can have a gall bladder out in about 15 minutes (it takes longer to prep the room and put the patient under) and the patient goes home a few hours later. Plus you have the advent of things like interventional radiology and surgical robots, which greatly reduce the invasive nature of some older procedures.
By 2070 things that require surgery now (like having your gall bladder out or removing a coronary blockage) could be as simple as a nanobot injection you get at the clinic (granted not all clinics, but the good ones would have this ability). I could see most routine cyberware implants (eyes, ears, partial limbs, datajacks) done in ambulatory clinics as well. Plus anesthesia would be a snap- hook up the trodes and your patient spends 5 virtual minutes at the beach while you replace his eyes over the course of an hour. The real question is what kinds of operations would be too big for a small surgical suite. Things like bioware implantation, some of the headware stuff (that would require craniotomy), full limb replacements and things like cyber skulls and torsos might be invasive enough to require a more robust surgical suite, but even then I don't image it would be that bad.
Then consider how much faster recover times would be with 2070's medicine. Less infections with 2070's antibiotics. Less complications like wound dehiscence with nanites that put the tissue back together. Overall you have to consider that most of the stuff we think of as complicated would be routine by SR standards.
So that was quite a rant, but it happens to be one of the things that really intrigues me about SR...
QUOTE
...here in Libya...
You live in Libya? Its amazing the kind of people you run into around here.
kzt
Aug 21 2009, 05:28 AM
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 20 2009, 07:01 PM)

In fact, very few medical schools in the US are still offering gross anatomy because its significantly cheeper to teach students with computerized tutorials. So in answer to your question, knowledge would certainly not be a limiting factor.
I think "very few" is a pretty major exaggeration. I know our school is spending a small fortune one a new gross anatomy lab, and if you look at the program of major medical schools it's still a requirement. There isn't a written LCME requirement, but I suspect it would be found to "very concerning" during the review if a medical school didn't include this.
QUOTE
By 2070 things that require surgery now (like having your gall bladder out or removing a coronary blockage) could be as simple as a nanobot injection you get at the clinic
Removing a coronary blockage doesn't often require surgery today, it's generally a trip to the cardiac catherization lab and an injection into your femoral artery.
Method
Aug 21 2009, 07:06 AM
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 20 2009, 10:28 PM)

I think "very few" is a pretty major exaggeration.
Err... damn my proof reading. That was an editing error. You are correct. Most schools still have gross anatomy as a requirement, however there are a few schools that have done way with the course in favor of virtual cadavers.
QUOTE
Removing a coronary blockage doesn't often require surgery today, it's generally a trip to the cardiac catherization lab and an injection into your femoral artery.
Right. Both the examples I gave were things that twenty years ago entailed invasive operations, but have become fairly routine and uninvasive today. My point being that by 2070 you won't even go to the cath lab. You'll go to your doctor's office and say "Doc, I'm having chest pain" and he'll shoot you full of specialized nanites right there before sending you home.
nezumi
Aug 21 2009, 03:42 PM
The rules state you need a shop to do surgery like that. Additionally, the shop comes with a device which can synthesize just about any drug you might need. It's pretty powerful, obviously. I can dig around for the page reference if people need it, but not until Tuesday at the earliest.
(Oh yeah, SR3 only)
Jame J
May 7 2010, 04:28 PM
I did create a doctor-as-shadowrunner last night; when I can get to it I'll put her up for review.
Jame J
May 9 2010, 08:34 PM
Here is my Shadowrunner MD; I hope someone comments 'cause I think my addition is a bit off in building her.
"Toothpick," AKA Marianna Kingham (Official SIN name), AKA Mara Nainwall (Fake SIN name). Works as a nurse at a local mid-level college; the administration is a bit leery of having an Ork nurse and put her on part-time duty - so she takes on shadowruns to supplement her income (and if she happens to help improve the reputation of Orks that's for the good). She stands 1.83 meters tall and weighs 121 kg, and has an athletic physique (her Ork phenotype being longer and not the same type of compact as a human or elven gymnast would be); her father was a white human from New York, while her mother was a hispanic Ork from Borinquen (Puerto Rico, for those of you without Cyberpirates); their daughter is now a 32-year-old woman with tan skin, hazel eyes, freckles across nose (left nostril is pierced); when on shift she wears a skirt-suit, which reveal her pierced navel (not that she minds); on runs she wears a green-and-black patterned Urban Explorer Jumpsuit and a helmet. [I think I'll ask Squinky if he'd be willing to make a drawing of her.]
Ork (20 BP); low-light vision
Body 4 Agility 5 Reaction 4 Strength 4 Charisma 4 Intuition 5 Logic 4 Will 4 Edge 3
Bilingual, Speed Reader
Sinner (non-criminal), Part-Time Day Job (20 hours - private school nurse), Low Pain Tolerance, Pacifist (5-point version)
Active Skills: Biotech Skill Group 5, Gymnastics 3, Infiltration 3, Ettiquette 4, Negotiate 3, Perception 3, Palming 3, Pilot Ground Craft 2, Pistols 3, Computer 2
Knowledge Skills: Spanish N, English N, Or'zet 2, Medical Procedures 4, Business 3, Local Area Knowledge 2, Sci-Fi Literature 3, Painting 3, Chemistry 3
Contacts: Fixer 3/2, Ork Nation Organizer 3/3, Go-Ganger 2/2, College Professor 2/3
Lifestyle: 3 months Middle; Comforts, Entertainment, Necessities, Neighborhood, Security: Middle; Workplace: Shop, Friendly Neighbors, Hasty Exit; AI in residence, Lives with Parents, Crash Pad
Cyberware: Alpha Datajack
Comm: Transys Avalon w/Nova Navi OS, Subvocal Mike, AR Gloves, Skinlink, Sattelite Link, 5*printer, 15 data chips; Programs: Analyze 5, Browse 3, Command 5, Edit 5, Encrypt 4, Scan 3, Armor 3, Firewall 6; 9*Datasofts each R3, 1 VR Game, Wall Space
Weapon & Armor: Colt Manhunter w/Silencer, Internal Smartlink, Concealable Holster, 6 Spare Clips & 50 Stick & Shock Rounds; green-and-black pattern Urban Explorer Jumpsuit (chemical protection 3, Insulation 2, nonconductivity 2) & helmet
Gear: Fake SIN R5, 4*Certified Credstick, 3 tag erasers, 1 goggles and 1 glasses each with smartlink, thermographic vision, vision enhancement 2, vision magnification, flare compensation & image link, Dodge Scoot motorbike, R6 respirator, R6 Chemsuit, Hazmat suit, 2 biomonitors, 3*Medkit R6, 15*medkit supplies, 10 each antidote slap-patch and stim patch, all R4, 10*Tranquilizer patch R5, 5*Trauma Patch, White Noise Generator R6, Handheld Sensor with R3 Atmosphere Tester, R4 Cyberware Scanner and R4 Olfactory Scanner, 250 nuyen worth of dress clothing (normal clothing being assumed as part of lifestyle costs)
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