Bein' a Kid, or, How to play younger folk Options

[ScooterinAB]

After playing around with Shadowrun 4th for a bit, I think I'm ready to try a Hacker (I tend to try more mundane characters until I get comfortable with the rules).

I was thinking that it could be interesting to try and play some Matrix savvy kid who has to sneak out to run or hack at a distance after it's his bedtime. I got the idea when an old character I was playing has to hire this MMO kid to hack for us, because we were quite poor and lame. Also, I love the idea of a team finding out that their hacker is just a little kid.

Unfortunately, there are a few issues I'm having with making the kid. And search fu only turned up one way of handling it, but it was more of a campaign thing than an individual character option (mostly about BP restrictions and the like, rather than actual character effects).

Most roleplaying games I've played have some kind of Kid disadvantage, which usually limits some physical stats and applies a few social modifiers. Shadowrun seems to lack anything like this, other than taking Dependant and just reversing is that the character depends on another person (rather than being depended on).

Another concern is life style. Athough the Runner's Companion has an option for still living at home, it's not really realistic for a kid (a Medium Lifestyle is still thousands per month for the character). I was thinking of building a custom Lifestyle based on what he himself has (for example, his Comfort would represent his bedroom instead of his house, or his Entertainment would represent his allowance and personal fun money, instead of his parent's). Additionally, there would be roleplay effects, like chores and curfew. However, this doesn't really deal with the cost issue, and giving the kid a massively reduced Lifestyle cost is kind of unfair for others.

Anyone have any hard and fast suggestions to do a Kid as a PC? From a game design standpoint, I'm interested in making the character self contained (in case I change GM's) rather than having external game effects dictating being a Kid works. This means self containing all of the effects of being a kid using things like Negative Qualities and lower points spent on Resources, rather than relying a GM to come up with the effects.

Help is much appreciated.

[Khyron]

Low physical stats maybe?

Lifestyle would probably have to be done via GM approval, or take a variation of the "Trust Fund" Quality which covers living expenses and allowance.

[Jaid]

there is a surge quality in runner's companion that makes you physically a young teen or less permanently (i think it says something like 10-13 being around the age where you stop growing). you could look there for an idea of how to handle the physical aspect.

as for the rest, iirc there is a lifestyle option that lets you have roommates, isn't there?

[Tiger Eyes]

Runner's Companion has "Living with Parents" lifestyle quality (p. 163). Combine it with Corporate Owned (p. 163) and Day Job. Personally I'd have the Day Job be full-time high-school attendance (which is equal to, what, 30 hrs a week? and can always be a virtual school). Then the "salary" - for 30 hrs a week would be somewhere between 2,500 & 4,000, is rolled directly to the lifestyle costs. So you aren't really getting the lifestyle for "free." I'd still say you had to pay for your own entertainment costs, gas for your car, dates, etc. Of course if you drop out of school, the "salary" goes away - representing your parents kicking you out! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As a player I'd say this was fair, just like any other character who takes a Day Job quality and uses the nuyen to pay for their lifestyle.

[Aaron]

If you're playing a teenager, you might want to keep the amygdala thing in mind. A lot of people believe that a teenager's amygdalae are hyper-active, but I think it would be more accurate to say that the brain is playing with its new toy. Most input is routed through the amygdala in teens (if I'm remembering my Ed. Psych right; I'm not the best at bio). Basically, when playing a teen, consider first how everything makes your character feel, and react that way first. If that makes any sense.

To the teen-aged DSers: I'm not saying that you're all a bunch of over-emotional people. Well, okay, I am, but not in a bad way. This is how your brain works, and will continue to work until you're somewhere between 19 and 22. It doesn't mean you're incapable of rational thought, or that you're necessarily overly emotional. Anyway, yeah, it sucks, I know. If you want to yell at me, feel free to PM me. =i)

[CodeBreaker]

One thing that might be worth noting is the legality of basic cyber/bio for people under the age of 18. If I remember right, from the fluff, it is illegal for minors to have basically any Cyber installed at all. Datajacks are a no no (Skulls still growing and stuff), everything else would probably be the same.

Source: Unwired Pg. 42.
Direct Neural Interface
Be wary of people who tell you that DNI is the only way to
fly. You might think that you can get a datajack even though it’s
illegal in most places to buy a DNI before you’re 18 or 21, but be
careful. You’re probably not done growing, so a datajack is not a
good idea yet

[ScooterinAB]

Thanks for the tips. I agree that Cyberware is generally a no go (to much physical growth). Apparently though, a teen's head and brain have mostly growth already, so I think a datajack and some other pieces of less invasive cyberware would be ok (not great, but not like a youth sized cyberarm). Of course, that assumes that he can get the surgery to begin with.

Something to keep in mind is that part of Unwired is a fluff section, being accounted by another shadowrunner. I'm not sure if it would hold up (or if s/he is even correct).

What other ideas are out there?

[fistandantilus4....]

Try playing a younger kid from this perspective; what seperates a kid from an adult is essentially experience. Depending on how much the kid has experienced, what they've gone through or had to do (street survival for example), could make them seem very adult, especially through the anonymity of the matrix.

Try reading Way of the Shadows by Brent Weeks. Wicked book.

[Machiavelli]

Also, I love the idea of a team finding out that their hacker is just a little kid.

Aeeehm....honestly. How would you react if you find out that your hacker connection that it highly recommended of being reliable and loyal, is basically a kid, still living at home? I would lay my life in the hands of a 13-year old kid, no matter how professional he is. Even the THOUGHT that i would be standing in front of a door that has to be opened by him, the hot breath of the hellhounds already feelable in my neck and suddenly there is no contact anymore because he has to put the trash out (like in Galaxy Quest) or he has to go to bed and mom switches his commlink off. No way.^^ I would refuse to run with such an contact. Even if he wouldn´t live at home (being a street kid with his own flat etc.) kids aren´t well known for reliablility and logical actions. No good choice.

[Erl of Ingst]

Aeeehm....honestly. How would you react if you find out that your hacker connection that it highly recommended of being reliable and loyal, is basically a kid, still living at home? I would lay my life in the hands of a 13-year old kid, no matter how professional he is. Even the THOUGHT that i would be standing in front of a door that has to be opened by him, the hot breath of the hellhounds already feelable in my neck and suddenly there is no contact anymore because he has to put the trash out (like in Galaxy Quest) or he has to go to bed and mom switches his commlink off. No way.^^ I would refuse to run with such an contact. Even if he wouldn´t live at home (being a street kid with his own flat etc.) kids aren´t well known for reliablility and logical actions. No good choice.

This assumes a normal 13 year old kid would even be a shadowrunner. I doubt they have the same lifestyle or mental capacity of the other children his age. You are probably looking more at characters from Ender's Game. Super smart children with parents who are slightly neglectful as long as their children maintain their grades. Besides, upper-middle class families wouldn't need to take out the trash (or do any other such activity) with all the techbots running around. Unless the parents believe in character building but surely a kid who is a shadowrunner suggests that the parents failed the 'character building' test at an early age. Besides, the kid can't be any more mentally unstable than the other runners.

[Machiavelli]

That is true, but he definitely has other preferences. He lacks the seriousness that only comes with longer life-experience. As an additional disadvantage he also lacks average physical stats as well as equal skills in comparison with his adult equivalent. If he is one of this wonder-children he may have the skills, but he definitely lacks all the other points. It is difficult enough to depend your life on an sociopathic street-grunt, but on a kid that hardly knows what the world is about is seriously suicidal.

[Khyron]

Kid or not, he's still shadowrunning. I'd imagine after this kid made his first big payday, he'd run away from home, get his own place and live the life. This has the problem of him becoming extremely jaded and/or shellshocked by adulthood, or dead.

[Ol' Scratch]

I can't stand to see people make kids as characters except in off-kilter games or scenarios. It's why I hated the original incarnation of the otaku so very, very much.

Shadowrunners are, for the most part, professional criminals for hire. Few people are going to be willing to hire a kid for any kind of shadowrun, especially when shadowrunners are so common, disposable and easy to come by. They're extremely memorable, they're prone to be emotional and bratty, they're harder to disguise or otherwise pass off as someone else, and few other shadowrunners would want to work with one for all the same reasons and more. Their few niche advantages are greatly overshadowed by their uselessness.

They're just flat-out annoying. Even in other cyberpunkish fiction. Take the kid from Robocop 2 as a prime example.

[Tricen]

I tend to think of things through the prism of "If it's fun, we'll make it work." and so this is how I see it. Stats and character creation should be gone over with your GM to make sure everyone is on board. To try and keep some sort of realism (and not alienate the other PCs) work your character in as a person that has never been physically seen. Then, if you want to get the shock value of him being a kid, you can go on a couple of runs to build a rep with your team and can use that to maintain the relationship. "Ok, I know I shoulda been straight with you guys, but remember those turrets threatening to send you to hell? Yeah, that was me that stopped them." Just my take.

[Critias]

I can't stand to see people make kids as characters except in off-kilter games or scenarios. It's why I hated the original incarnation of the otaku so very, very much.

Shadowrunners are, for the most part, professional criminals for hire. Few people are going to be willing to hire a kid for any kind of shadowrun, especially when shadowrunners are so common, disposable and easy to come by. They're extremely memorable, they're prone to be emotional and bratty, they're harder to disguise or otherwise pass off as someone else, and few other shadowrunners would want to work with one for all the same reasons and more. Their few niche advantages are greatly overshadowed by their uselessness.

They're just flat-out annoying. Even in other cyberpunkish fiction. Take the kid from Robocop 2 as a prime example.

+ one bajillion.

[Lok1 :)]

Thing is though, a shadowrunner can be anyone with the correct skills. Who's to say a computer hacker teenager 13+ dosn't have the skills needed to hack a system.

[Aaron]

I believe that /dev/grrl is 15 when she's featured in the vignette in Unwired, so I can agree with you there.

[CodeBreaker]

Wasn't /dev/grrl featured in one of the 3rd Edition books Shadowtalk? She must be getting on a bit by now? Or am I mistaken?

[Critias]

Thing is though, a shadowrunner can be anyone with the correct skills. Who's to say a computer hacker teenager 13+ dosn't have the skills needed to hack a system.

I would argue that a shadowrunner can be anyone with the correct skills and mindset. Seriously, how well would a thirteen year old fit into Heat or something?

Like everything else, though, it's up to the game table in question. If the rest of the players and the GM are fine with it, and it fits with the mood of their game to have a computer wiz middle schooler, more power to 'em. But it doesn't sit right with the type of game I run, at least, and several others.

[Erl of Ingst]

I find it strange so many people are against kids as shadowrunners. I agree with Tricen. It's about the role-play and it can work. They can have just as many reasons to shadowrun as anyone else. Maybe they are rebelling against their parents. Maybe they actually live with their grandmother because the corps killed their parents. Adoption. Living on the streets (Abandoned). A freak. You name it, life/shadowrun has it.

I would argue that a shadowrunner can be anyone with the correct skills and mindset. Seriously, how well would a thirteen year old fit into Heat or something?

Who says a kid doesn't have the mindset. The way I've noticed shadowrun's themes is most shadowrunners are disillusioned with society and want to strike back against 'the man.' That sounds like a college student, but the entire depressing scenario of shadowrun puts it easily into the realm of a teenager. So 'mindset' of a teenager: depressed, hates the world, and borderline suicidal. That doesn't sound like a shadowrunner. Of course, to be completely honest, I have no idea what 'Heat' is referencing.

Shadowrunners are, for the most part, professional criminals for hire. Few people are going to be willing to hire a kid for any kind of shadowrun, especially when shadowrunners are so common, disposable and easy to come by. They're extremely memorable, they're prone to be emotional and bratty, they're harder to disguise or otherwise pass off as someone else, and few other shadowrunners would want to work with one for all the same reasons and more. Their few niche advantages are greatly overshadowed by their uselessness.

I find the first part a contradiction. If they are professionals for hire they aren't disposable and if they are disposable why not use kids? If no one finds out who sent the kid on the run when the trideo reports come on, who cares; and if they have the skills to hack, who cares if he is pint sized? As long as we are throwing stereotypes about children.

Elves: Snobby, High on themselves
Orks: Not much better than a street thug
Troll: Stupid muscle

If you are running as a 'professional' would you want anyone in the group to be snobby, a street thug, or stupid. That sounds like a fast way of getting yourself killed.

Then there is the disguising issue. Have you seen all the expanded rules of the game? How many different types of freaks are running around in the Runner's Companion. On top of that, with all the cyber mods people can get, how difficult would it be to spot a particular runner in a lineup. Heck, a dwarf looks like a child and when a child is all gears up for a run they might not be very distinguishable from a dwarf. This is, of course, assuming they need to be on the run (See full immersion). 'Day Job' Negative Quality speaks for itself, as well as 'Dependent'.

I'm not saying a GM doesn't have a right to say no to any character idea. If the kid doesn't work for your run, then I guess it is too bad for them. I just want everyone to keep an open mind to the possibilities. Try to work around a character flaw rather than ignore the possibilities. Heck, do you really want to tell someone they can't play their favorite character because you are unwilling to work with them? You can work it into the game if you want to put in the effort.

Give them a social penalty. Leadership skill? Not likely people will listen to them. Negotiation? Probably going to get screwed, people steal money from children all the time. Physical attributes? Not good (unless they are about 16 then they usually can have a good body/agility/reaction).

Okay, getting a little long. Sorry, I would just rather a DM work my character concept into their game design then outright refuse it because it is too challenging.

[Ol' Scratch]

It hardly has anything to do with being challenging. It has everything to do with just not being believable whatsoever except in goofy games. It never works well, it always comes across lame, it's always crippling to every other character on the team as well as would-be employers, and it's always incredibly lame. It also never improves a game in my experience. The entire game essentially revolves around having a kid in the group which is bad form no matter what.

Can you force a scenario where it works? Sure. Just like they do in other genres such as the superhero genre with teams like the Teen Titans. That doesn't mean it makes any sense whatsoever, though. Like a group of teens are going to be fully autonomous with a huge landmark of a business office under their complete and utter control? And other superheroes with an ounce of morality are going to let a bunch of kids run around putting their lives at risk on a regular basis? Batman, sure, but he's a psycho. But someone like Superman? Wonder Woman? Just about any Green Lantern? Ridiculous.

Which is the entire crux; even within a genre where the unbelievable becomes believable, having kids doing shit like that is a huge strain on a person's suspension of disbelief. But if everyone who's a part of that scenario is fine with ignoring that disbelief, good for them. That doesn't make it a good idea for the genre as a whole, however.

[Khyron]

I wouldn't necessarily say it's non believable, but I always found the trope of the super-talented preteen know-it-all to be terribly annoying and only acceptable to other people in that age group. I honestly don't see it happening outside of a goofy act of rebellion and only lasting one run until the kid gets shot at and realizes he's in over his head, breaks down and cries for his parents.

[Critias]

Who says a kid doesn't have the mindset. The way I've noticed shadowrun's themes is most shadowrunners are disillusioned with society and want to strike back against 'the man.' That sounds like a college student, but the entire depressing scenario of shadowrun puts it easily into the realm of a teenager. So 'mindset' of a teenager: depressed, hates the world, and borderline suicidal. That doesn't sound like a shadowrunner. Of course, to be completely honest, I have no idea what 'Heat' is referencing.

It's not just about wanting to strike back against society (and in many games, it's not about that AT ALL), it's about having the capacity to do so (which is the skill set, already mentioned), and the ability to do so repeatedly, confidentially, professionally, quietly, etc, etc, etc. You can't just be a really bright kid with a few high skills and a chip on his shoulder. You've got to have the professional part of "professional criminal," if you expect people to pay you thousands and thousands of nuyen to do illegal jobs for them, and if you expect other professional criminals to work with you with any regularity.

Which, as I'm well aware, is all stuff that comes down to who's running the game, and what flavor of Shadowrun you like. That's why I referenced Heat (it's a movie, for the record), because it's generally done well as a sort of weather marker to show people the type of game I like to play in. If you're playing Magical Anime Robin Hood In Seattle, then I'm sure a spunky 13 year old sidekick can fit in just fine. Heck, even if you're playing the D&D With Guns version of Shadowrun (as opposed to "Cyberpunk With Elves," the flavor I prefer), a prodigy thirteen year old superhacker can probably pull his weight.

But if you're playing something a little darker, you just can't toss a middle school kid into the middle of the Meet, and not expect Mr. Johnson to laugh and then have you all murdered for wasting his fucking time.

[Erl of Ingst]

Yes... horribly unbelievable that a child would do something illegal and get started into a life of crime at an early age... It never happens in real life... children never fire guns or have a shitty life that they need to do illegal acts to survive... only 'adult.'

Keep in mind that they aren't Teen Titans who are fighting crime. They are criminals and the only people who care that they are putting themselves in danger are themselves (and some old grandma watching the news who sees a dead child criminal and has a flashback to "the good ol' days").

Yes, it is far less believable having a child doing illegal activity on the street than it is to have, what... AI? Goblins? Shapeshifters? Magic users? Companies that are trying to control our lives?

I was going for irony on the last question, but you see my point. If you make a game centered around this unique character than it will be, but if you let it happen and everyone flows with it well it doesn't need to be the focal point and it surely doesn't need to be 'lame'; at least any more lame than a character wanting to be a vampire or 'Mr. I Like Big Guns' or I'm a big dumb strong troll or etc.

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok first in the spirit of answering the original question I would look to something like elf-poser as a guideline. it's a disadvantage that if found out might have bad repercusions as far as your characters rep is concerned. As far as mechanical representations beyond that I really have no guidance. Any hard and fast societal rule could be explained through back--story. Want cyber-ware? Your sinless and you, or your guardian found a less then ethical cyberdoc. (There's a redundancy) Why would a kid be running? Maybe they are an orphan or they are their families primary bread winner. Maybe they have a score to settle, the reason their running could be the same as any other runner.

.... Also, I love the idea of a team finding out that their hacker is just a little kid...

Right but what are they going to do if they insist on a meat meeting and then decide they won't run with you anymore based on your child status? What if a johnson who insists on a meat meetigns won't hire you because of your child status? Part of it depends on how young you want to play, a 14-18 year old might not be a problem. A 8 year old? Oh yes there will be problems.

Going into the area of an editorial I usually caution players against, if not outright ban character concepts that are automatically incompatable with others or those whos only pupose seems to be to cause conflict with others. Take it as you will.