Need a favor please, From somebody with 1st Ed books... Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Kerenshara]

What were the rules back in the beginning about the differences between cased ammunition and caseless ammunition? Caseless got you more rounds, but not a LOT more. I'd appreciate if somebody would do a look-up for me and toss it up. I'm pretty sure it was in the 1st Ed Street Samurai Catalog, but it MIGHT have been the original BBB.

Thanks in advance!

[Method]

Caseless ammo wasn't introduced until 2E, in FoF (page 77). If there is an older reference I don't remember it and cannot find it on cursory review of the BBB or SSC.

-- Any weapon could be purchased in a caseless variant for +50% cost and +1 avail
-- Ammo was also +50% cost and +1 avail
-- Ammo capacity was increased by +20%
-- Ammo weight was decreased by -20%
-- Normal weapons could not fire caseless rounds and vice versa.

[Mäx]

Rules in Fields of Fire are as follow.
+50 to the price of the gun and ammo
+1 to avalebility of the gun and ammo
+20% to guns clip capasity
-20% to guns weight
cannot use caseless ammo in gun designed for cased ammo and vice versa.

Damm you Method. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Thank you both! That's vaguely what I remembered, and I appreciate the detailed cite.

I'm goin back to the tweaked gun rules now...

(For those who are wondering what I have in mind, it's more accurate to say I'm coming up with revised charts rather than revised RULES, though I am adding a couple "optionals" that might appeal to people.

The concept is to make the system more dependent on the ammunition used than the class of weapon like it is now. The class of weapon just modifies the base performance of the round. That will mean it's more like IRL where you can use rounds from your SMG oftentimes to replenish your pistol and vice versa. I wanted to look at seeing if caseless was worth playing with or not. From 3rd Ed on, it got dropped as "Assumed" but the ammunition capacities didn't seem to go up to match, so I'm digging back through to see what I can find/resurect. For the most part, there won't be any changes to the core rules - you just read from a different chart for stats. The exception is going to be reliability, and the couple people I have described that to seemed to think it was both simple and useful without adding any real complications.)

[the_real_elwood]

Intriguing. When I got to the weapon creation rules in Cannon Comp, one of the first things I did was to take the sport rifle base and try to turn it in to something close to an assault rifle, creating something like what's the AR-10 (or any other 7.62mm AR-style rifle) today. You've just got to remember that barrel length plays a huge part in the performance of the round. So in your example with the SMG and the pistol, a pistol firing the same 9mm round as an SMG will likely do slightly less damage. But I'm sure you've got that all under control.

[Method]

Damm you Method. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The increased ammo capacity has never made much sense to me. Caseless rounds might be shorter front to back but the height of a round is based largely on the caliber so a stack of rounds in a magazine isn't going to change much except maybe in a rifle round where a much larger casing is necked-down to a smaller bullet. Most pistol rounds (and thus SMGs) wouldn't really be affected.

[Kerenshara]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The increased ammo capacity has never made much sense to me. Caseless rounds might be shorter front to back but the height of a round is based largely on the caliber so a stack of rounds in a magazine isn't going to change much except maybe in a rifle round where a much larger casing is necked-down to a smaller bullet. Most pistol rounds (and thus SMGs) wouldn't really be affected.

Emphasis mine.

Almost entirely untrue. That only really applies to PISTOL ammunition, whereas almost all modern RIFLE rounds "neck down" to one extent or another, some to a rather surprising extent. One of the most modern rounds on the market (in terms of introduction date) would be the 6.5x39mm Grendel, which necks down from 11.2mm at the rim all the way down to the round's 6.5mm, or just about a 42% reduction. The 5.56x45mm NATO round (.223 Remington for the AR-15) necks down from a rim of 9.6mm, just over 42%. The 7.62x51mm NATO round necks down from 12.01mm at the neck, or 36.5%. There IS a pistol caliber that necks down significantly: 5.7x28mm necks down from 7.95mm, or 28%. I'd be okay with not increasing pistol capacities, but for rifles it's going to be important. And since I'm going with ammunition-centric profiles, I can easily make it just apply to one not the other.

[Kerenshara]

Intriguing. When I got to the weapon creation rules in Cannon Comp, one of the first things I did was to take the sport rifle base and try to turn it in to something close to an assault rifle, creating something like what's the AR-10 (or any other 7.62mm AR-style rifle) today. You've just got to remember that barrel length plays a huge part in the performance of the round. So in your example with the SMG and the pistol, a pistol firing the same 9mm round as an SMG will likely do slightly less damage. But I'm sure you've got that all under control.

Yep, already taken care of. I actually decided to do barrel length modifiers based on base profile, so heavy mass/low velocity rounds gain damage as barrel length increases, while high velocity rounds increase AP as the velocity climbs. It's as much trying to keep game balance as match IRL, but it works, and even extrapolates properly into book weapons as they are NOW.

[the_real_elwood]

Well, when you get that stuff done, I as well as many other people are likely going to be very interested in taking a look at it.

[Method]

I'd be okay with not increasing pistol capacities, but for rifles it's going to be important. And since I'm going with ammunition-centric profiles, I can easily make it just apply to one not the other.

That was kinda my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I know that there are some rare examples of necked-down pistol ammo, but unless you are going to detail every kind of ammunition out there, I would just rule that pistols and SMGs get no ammo capacity increase from caseless ammo and be done with it.

[Kerenshara]

That was kinda my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I know that there are some rare examples of necked-down pistol ammo, but unless you are going to detail every kind of ammunition out there, I would just rule that pistols and SMGs get no ammo capacity increase from caseless ammo and be done with it.

Or at least not HP and LP ammo. Need to research Gonzo ammo just to make sure. MP ammo will scale a little bit, maybe 10% but I'll play with it.

I plan to leave it somewhat abstract and the plan currently is:

Light Pistol - 9x19mm Parabellum
Medium Pistol - 5.7x28mm
Heavy Pistol - .40 S&W / .45 ACP
Gonzo Pistol - .44 Full Magnum / .50 AE

Light Rifle - 6.5x39mm Grendel
Heavy Rifle - 7.62x51mm NATO / .30-06
Gonzo Rifle - Think .460 WBM and up, and pretty flexible.

[the_real_elwood]

If you want some real gonzo ammunition (even though it's kind of made up), check out the anti-Borg weapons in CP2020. Guns that fire bullets so big, only a full Borg conversion can actually use them without ripping the arm out of its socket.

[Kerenshara]

If you want some real gonzo ammunition (even though it's kind of made up), check out the anti-Borg weapons in CP2020. Guns that fire bullets so big, only a full Borg conversion can actually use them without ripping the arm out of its socket.

Um, no, I was planning to stick to the relatively "normal" Gonzo stuff. It's easy to get a hold of .50 BMG and a Barrett in most states, and a .460 WBM rifle is easy - just takes cash. Bigger than that and you're clear out of small arms and into heavy weapons.

[hobgoblin]

whats this, raygun 2.0? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kerenshara]

whats this, raygun 2.0? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*smacks hobgoblin with a large tuna*

[Method]

We can hope....

[the_real_elwood]

Anzio Iron Works sells a 20mm rifle, only problem is that 'cos it's bigger than .50 cal, it's classified as a Destructive Device, so there's a little more licensing. But there's nothing keeping anyone out there from machining some custom bullets and cases for some truly enormous rounds.

[Kerenshara]

Anzio Iron Works sells a 20mm rifle, only problem is that 'cos it's bigger than .50 cal, it's classified as a Destructive Device, so there's a little more licensing. But there's nothing keeping anyone out there from machining some custom bullets and cases for some truly enormous rounds.

So now you want me to crank out customer Assault Cannon stats?!

*smirk*

[the_real_elwood]

Hey, just throwin' that out there. You do what you want, and the community will appreciate whatever you do.

But my philosophy has always been, if a big bullet is good, a bigger bullet is even better.

[Kerenshara]

Hey, just throwin' that out there. You do what you want, and the community will appreciate whatever you do.

But my philosophy has always been, if a big bullet is good, a bigger bullet is even better.

*Holds their face in their hands and sighs*

[hobgoblin]

and then physics starts playing havoc with the shooter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kerenshara]

*Wrong thread, sorry*

[Stahlseele]

I don't think i've ever really been with ya on this thematic . . but while you're at it, take at look at this please:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...aadi_griff.html
Somehow, i think can't help but notice a certain similarity between your avatar here and the woman in the pictures ^^
and this:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...hunder_50_.html
and sadly, this one went the way of the dodo:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041231044428/...://birdman.org/

[Kerenshara]

I don't think i've ever really been with ya on this thematic . . but while you're at it, take at look at this please:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...aadi_griff.html
and this:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...hunder_50_.html
Somehow, i think can't help but notice a certain similarity between your avatar here and the woman in the pictures ^^

Oh... my... gods...

I thought that damned thing was just an urban legend.

As to the last part, I'm not quite sure what to say. Personally I'm preferential to the H&K USP Tactical full frame. Planning to try to get trigger time with a FN Five-seveN if I can get my grubby paws on one. If it feels as good as the USP, I may have to break down and lay out the nine hundred clams. Military-grade ammo can't be THAT tough to come by.

[Stahlseele]

*snickers*
Now THOSE i would accept as a HEAVY PISTOL for my Trolls ^^
To every legend, there's a bit of truth.
And no, those guys were not even the first to try something like that.
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/...07/protect.jpeg

And in the US of A, isn't the Barret Light Fifty actually legal to own, what with it not being even semi automatic?
Declared as a hunting rifle? So the Ammo for that one should be easy enough to obtain too right?