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Kerenshara
What were the rules back in the beginning about the differences between cased ammunition and caseless ammunition? Caseless got you more rounds, but not a LOT more. I'd appreciate if somebody would do a look-up for me and toss it up. I'm pretty sure it was in the 1st Ed Street Samurai Catalog, but it MIGHT have been the original BBB.

Thanks in advance!
Method
Caseless ammo wasn't introduced until 2E, in FoF (page 77). If there is an older reference I don't remember it and cannot find it on cursory review of the BBB or SSC.

-- Any weapon could be purchased in a caseless variant for +50% cost and +1 avail
-- Ammo was also +50% cost and +1 avail
-- Ammo capacity was increased by +20%
-- Ammo weight was decreased by -20%
-- Normal weapons could not fire caseless rounds and vice versa.
Mx
Rules in Fields of Fire are as follow.
+50 to the price of the gun and ammo
+1 to avalebility of the gun and ammo
+20% to guns clip capasity
-20% to guns weight
cannot use caseless ammo in gun designed for cased ammo and vice versa.

Damm you Method. mad.gif
Kerenshara
Thank you both! That's vaguely what I remembered, and I appreciate the detailed cite.

I'm goin back to the tweaked gun rules now...

(For those who are wondering what I have in mind, it's more accurate to say I'm coming up with revised charts rather than revised RULES, though I am adding a couple "optionals" that might appeal to people.

The concept is to make the system more dependent on the ammunition used than the class of weapon like it is now. The class of weapon just modifies the base performance of the round. That will mean it's more like IRL where you can use rounds from your SMG oftentimes to replenish your pistol and vice versa. I wanted to look at seeing if caseless was worth playing with or not. From 3rd Ed on, it got dropped as "Assumed" but the ammunition capacities didn't seem to go up to match, so I'm digging back through to see what I can find/resurect. For the most part, there won't be any changes to the core rules - you just read from a different chart for stats. The exception is going to be reliability, and the couple people I have described that to seemed to think it was both simple and useful without adding any real complications.)
the_real_elwood
Intriguing. When I got to the weapon creation rules in Cannon Comp, one of the first things I did was to take the sport rifle base and try to turn it in to something close to an assault rifle, creating something like what's the AR-10 (or any other 7.62mm AR-style rifle) today. You've just got to remember that barrel length plays a huge part in the performance of the round. So in your example with the SMG and the pistol, a pistol firing the same 9mm round as an SMG will likely do slightly less damage. But I'm sure you've got that all under control.
Method
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 17 2009, 08:31 AM) *
Damm you Method. mad.gif
nyahnyah.gif

The increased ammo capacity has never made much sense to me. Caseless rounds might be shorter front to back but the height of a round is based largely on the caliber so a stack of rounds in a magazine isn't going to change much except maybe in a rifle round where a much larger casing is necked-down to a smaller bullet. Most pistol rounds (and thus SMGs) wouldn't really be affected.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 17 2009, 11:03 AM) *
nyahnyah.gif

The increased ammo capacity has never made much sense to me. Caseless rounds might be shorter front to back but the height of a round is based largely on the caliber so a stack of rounds in a magazine isn't going to change much except maybe in a rifle round where a much larger casing is necked-down to a smaller bullet. Most pistol rounds (and thus SMGs) wouldn't really be affected.

Emphasis mine.

Almost entirely untrue. That only really applies to PISTOL ammunition, whereas almost all modern RIFLE rounds "neck down" to one extent or another, some to a rather surprising extent. One of the most modern rounds on the market (in terms of introduction date) would be the 6.5x39mm Grendel, which necks down from 11.2mm at the rim all the way down to the round's 6.5mm, or just about a 42% reduction. The 5.56x45mm NATO round (.223 Remington for the AR-15) necks down from a rim of 9.6mm, just over 42%. The 7.62x51mm NATO round necks down from 12.01mm at the neck, or 36.5%. There IS a pistol caliber that necks down significantly: 5.7x28mm necks down from 7.95mm, or 28%. I'd be okay with not increasing pistol capacities, but for rifles it's going to be important. And since I'm going with ammunition-centric profiles, I can easily make it just apply to one not the other.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Aug 17 2009, 10:59 AM) *
Intriguing. When I got to the weapon creation rules in Cannon Comp, one of the first things I did was to take the sport rifle base and try to turn it in to something close to an assault rifle, creating something like what's the AR-10 (or any other 7.62mm AR-style rifle) today. You've just got to remember that barrel length plays a huge part in the performance of the round. So in your example with the SMG and the pistol, a pistol firing the same 9mm round as an SMG will likely do slightly less damage. But I'm sure you've got that all under control.

Yep, already taken care of. I actually decided to do barrel length modifiers based on base profile, so heavy mass/low velocity rounds gain damage as barrel length increases, while high velocity rounds increase AP as the velocity climbs. It's as much trying to keep game balance as match IRL, but it works, and even extrapolates properly into book weapons as they are NOW.
the_real_elwood
Well, when you get that stuff done, I as well as many other people are likely going to be very interested in taking a look at it.
Method
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 17 2009, 09:45 AM) *
I'd be okay with not increasing pistol capacities, but for rifles it's going to be important. And since I'm going with ammunition-centric profiles, I can easily make it just apply to one not the other.
That was kinda my point. wink.gif

And I know that there are some rare examples of necked-down pistol ammo, but unless you are going to detail every kind of ammunition out there, I would just rule that pistols and SMGs get no ammo capacity increase from caseless ammo and be done with it.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 17 2009, 12:05 PM) *
That was kinda my point. wink.gif

And I know that there are some rare examples of necked-down pistol ammo, but unless you are going to detail every kind of ammunition out there, I would just rule that pistols and SMGs get no ammo capacity increase from caseless ammo and be done with it.

Or at least not HP and LP ammo. Need to research Gonzo ammo just to make sure. MP ammo will scale a little bit, maybe 10% but I'll play with it.

I plan to leave it somewhat abstract and the plan currently is:

Light Pistol - 9x19mm Parabellum
Medium Pistol - 5.7x28mm
Heavy Pistol - .40 S&W / .45 ACP
Gonzo Pistol - .44 Full Magnum / .50 AE

Light Rifle - 6.5x39mm Grendel
Heavy Rifle - 7.62x51mm NATO / .30-06
Gonzo Rifle - Think .460 WBM and up, and pretty flexible.
the_real_elwood
If you want some real gonzo ammunition (even though it's kind of made up), check out the anti-Borg weapons in CP2020. Guns that fire bullets so big, only a full Borg conversion can actually use them without ripping the arm out of its socket.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Aug 17 2009, 02:00 PM) *
If you want some real gonzo ammunition (even though it's kind of made up), check out the anti-Borg weapons in CP2020. Guns that fire bullets so big, only a full Borg conversion can actually use them without ripping the arm out of its socket.

Um, no, I was planning to stick to the relatively "normal" Gonzo stuff. It's easy to get a hold of .50 BMG and a Barrett in most states, and a .460 WBM rifle is easy - just takes cash. Bigger than that and you're clear out of small arms and into heavy weapons.
hobgoblin
whats this, raygun 2.0? wink.gif
Kerenshara
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 17 2009, 02:17 PM) *
whats this, raygun 2.0? wink.gif

*smacks hobgoblin with a large tuna*
Method
We can hope....
the_real_elwood
Anzio Iron Works sells a 20mm rifle, only problem is that 'cos it's bigger than .50 cal, it's classified as a Destructive Device, so there's a little more licensing. But there's nothing keeping anyone out there from machining some custom bullets and cases for some truly enormous rounds.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Aug 17 2009, 03:24 PM) *
Anzio Iron Works sells a 20mm rifle, only problem is that 'cos it's bigger than .50 cal, it's classified as a Destructive Device, so there's a little more licensing. But there's nothing keeping anyone out there from machining some custom bullets and cases for some truly enormous rounds.

So now you want me to crank out customer Assault Cannon stats?!

*smirk*
the_real_elwood
Hey, just throwin' that out there. You do what you want, and the community will appreciate whatever you do.

But my philosophy has always been, if a big bullet is good, a bigger bullet is even better.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Aug 17 2009, 04:49 PM) *
Hey, just throwin' that out there. You do what you want, and the community will appreciate whatever you do.

But my philosophy has always been, if a big bullet is good, a bigger bullet is even better.

*Holds their face in their hands and sighs*
hobgoblin
and then physics starts playing havoc with the shooter wink.gif
Kerenshara
*Wrong thread, sorry*

Stahlseele
I don't think i've ever really been with ya on this thematic . . but while you're at it, take at look at this please:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...aadi_griff.html
Somehow, i think can't help but notice a certain similarity between your avatar here and the woman in the pictures ^^
and this:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...hunder_50_.html
and sadly, this one went the way of the dodo:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041231044428/...://birdman.org/
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 18 2009, 10:06 AM) *
I don't think i've ever really been with ya on this thematic . . but while you're at it, take at look at this please:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...aadi_griff.html
and this:
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/...hunder_50_.html
Somehow, i think can't help but notice a certain similarity between your avatar here and the woman in the pictures ^^

Oh... my... gods...

I thought that damned thing was just an urban legend.

As to the last part, I'm not quite sure what to say. Personally I'm preferential to the H&K USP Tactical full frame. Planning to try to get trigger time with a FN Five-seveN if I can get my grubby paws on one. If it feels as good as the USP, I may have to break down and lay out the nine hundred clams. Military-grade ammo can't be THAT tough to come by.
Stahlseele
*snickers*
Now THOSE i would accept as a HEAVY PISTOL for my Trolls ^^
To every legend, there's a bit of truth.
And no, those guys were not even the first to try something like that.
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/...07/protect.jpeg

And in the US of A, isn't the Barret Light Fifty actually legal to own, what with it not being even semi automatic?
Declared as a hunting rifle? So the Ammo for that one should be easy enough to obtain too right?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 18 2009, 08:26 AM) *
*snickers*
Now THOSE i would accept as a HEAVY PISTOL for my Trolls ^^
To every legend, there's a bit of truth.
And no, those guys were not even the first to try something like that.
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/...07/protect.jpeg

And in the US of A, isn't the Barret Light Fifty actually legal to own, what with it not being even semi automatic?
Declared as a hunting rifle? So the Ammo for that one should be easy enough to obtain too right?

Parts. Here in California, they are illegal.
I am *not* commenting on if that is good bad or indifferent, only reporting the facts.

BlueMax
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 18 2009, 10:26 AM) *
*snickers*
Now THOSE i would accept as a HEAVY PISTOL for my Trolls ^^
To every legend, there's a bit of truth.
And no, those guys were not even the first to try something like that.
http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/...07/protect.jpeg

And in the US of A, isn't the Barret Light Fifty actually legal to own, what with it not being even semi automatic?
Declared as a hunting rifle? So the Ammo for that one should be easy enough to obtain too right?

Last I checked the semi-auto was even legal, if you can a) afford it and b) find it. The ammo isn't "easy" to obtain, but neither is it impossible or illegal. Fact is, there are other weapons I'd trully rather own FIRST with that money.

*sighs*

I just need to find somebody willing to part with an H&K MSG-90 for less than my first-born and my left arm.
CodeBreaker
American Gunlaws are so crazy nyahnyah.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 18 2009, 05:45 PM) *
Last I checked the semi-auto was even legal, if you can a) afford it and b) find it. The ammo isn't "easy" to obtain, but neither is it impossible or illegal. Fact is, there are other weapons I'd trully rather own FIRST with that money.

*sighs*

I just need to find somebody willing to part with an H&K MSG-90 for less than my first-born and my left arm.

Why go with that childs toy, if you can have the grown up version?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_GMG
^^
Yeah, Germany is STILL good in building awesome stuff ^^
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 18 2009, 10:49 AM) *
Why go with that childs toy, if you can have the grown up version?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HK_GMG
^^
Yeah, Germany is STILL good in building awesome stuff ^^

*blinks*

Um, because I want to be able to a) carry it b) maneuver with it c) practice with it at the range d) afford to feed it regularly and e) not wind up in prison for trying to buy it.

Besides that?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 18 2009, 09:20 AM) *
*blinks*

Um, because I want to be able to a) carry it b) maneuver with it c) practice with it at the range d) afford to feed it regularly and e) not wind up in prison for trying to buy it.

Besides that?


He may be posting in Character. For a troll, that is a compact assault rifle.

BlueMax
CodeBreaker
Now if only Arsenal had introduced a Man-Portable belt feed I would be happy. Unless I missed something. Honestly, they introduce Drums but no belts?
Kerenshara
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Aug 18 2009, 11:24 AM) *
He may be posting in Character. For a troll, that is a compact assault rifle.

BlueMax

Okay...

*Kerenshara blinks*

"Um, because I want to be able to a) carry it b) maneuver with it c) practice with it at the range d) afford to feed it regularly and e) not wind up in prison for trying to buy it."

"Besides that? I know a big strapping troll like you could handle the first couple, but you have to admit the damned thing's going to have a hell of an apetite and expensive taste in food. And besides heading to the Z-Zone shooting gallery, it's hard to find a quiet place to practice with the damned thing."


How's that?
Stahlseele
Well, yeah, okay . . there MIGHT be that . . but come on . . telling someone to back off if he doesn't want to make business with your fully automatic assault cannon is close to being worth it ^^
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 18 2009, 11:38 AM) *
Well, yeah, okay . . there MIGHT be that . . but come on . . telling someone to back off if he doesn't want to make business with your fully automatic assault cannon is close to being worth it ^^

*Batts her eyelashes innocently at Stahlseele*

"But Stahl, I would have thought your big, strong trollish physique would be enough to keep any trouble maker from wanting to make business with you..."
Mx
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 18 2009, 07:38 PM) *
Well, yeah, okay . . there MIGHT be that . . but come on . . telling someone to back off if he doesn't want to make business with your fully automatic assault cannon is close to being worth it ^^

Thats only a fully automatic grenade clauncher.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 18 2009, 12:58 PM) *
Thats only a fully automatic grenade clauncher.

Looks like one of the new light 30mm GLs from the pictures, and those are basically low pressure (read: short range) autocannon.
Method
There has always been a little scale wonkiness in SR firearms. If you play RAW your troll is either totting around a regular sized HP with a gigantic cartoon grip or a gigantic pistol with a tiny little barrel...
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 18 2009, 01:01 PM) *
There has always been a little scale wonkiness in SR firearms. If you play RAW your troll is either totting around a regular sized HP with a gigantic cartoon grip or a gigantic pistol with a tiny little barrel...

*snickers*

Well, Stahlseele? Which is it? Big handle with a little gun or a huge gun firing teesey weensey bullets?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 18 2009, 10:01 AM) *
There has always been a little scale wonkiness in SR firearms. If you play RAW your troll is either totting around a regular sized HP with a gigantic cartoon grip or a gigantic pistol with a tiny little barrel...


Do you have the Ral Partha lead Troll? I have about 4. He is carrying a belt fed machine gun as his SMG and in his other hand he is carrying an SMG as a Automatic Pistol.

Its a WONDERFUL miniature.


BlueMax
Kerenshara
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Aug 18 2009, 01:09 PM) *
Do you have the Ral Partha lead Troll? I have about 4. He is carrying a belt fed machine gun as his SMG and in his other hand he is carrying an SMG as a Automatic Pistol.

Its a WONDERFUL miniature.


BlueMax

*sniffs*

Gouda? Limburger? Roqufort? Velveeta?

*sighs*

There are actually times I occasionally miss the bad old days.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 18 2009, 10:11 AM) *
*sniffs*

Gouda? Limburger? Roqufort? Velveeta?

*sighs*

There are actually times I occasionally miss the bad old days.

Why is it cheesy? Its just appropriately scaled.
It may be Velveeta like, as Velveeta is NOT cheese.

BlueMax
Kerenshara
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Aug 18 2009, 01:15 PM) *
Why is it cheesy? Its just appropriately scaled.
It may be Velveeta like, as Velveeta is NOT cheese.

BlueMax

No, it is a "processed cheese food" by Federal law. Doesn't mean Velveeta can't be termed as "cheesey", otherwise Kraft would have been shut down by the FTC LONG ago. *grin*
BlueMax
I have been told, but proved to the contrary.

"It's not easy, being cheesy."


BlueMax
/you just use milk and wait.
//sour milk in my case.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Aug 18 2009, 01:22 PM) *
I have been told, but proved to the contrary.

"It's not easy, being cheesy."


BlueMax
/you just use milk and wait.
//sour milk in my case.

*groans in pain*

OK, New Rule: you have to change your name to "Chester".
Stahlseele
Well, yeah, of course most people don't mess with a troll . . but there are circumstances where they seem to forget the difference somehow . .
Also, Big gun with tiny little bullets. Do you know what a bother it is to get them into the clips with these hands? But it'd be too damn expansive to get bullets in Troll-Size.
Guess i'll have to try and mod me one of those barrets into a handgun too . . . that looks about right.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 18 2009, 01:47 PM) *
Well, yeah, of course most people don't mess with a troll . . but there are circumstances where they seem to forget the difference somehow . .
Also, Big gun with tiny little bullets. Do you know what a bother it is to get them into the clips with these hands? But it'd be too damn expansive to get bullets in Troll-Size.
Guess i'll have to try and mod me one of those barrets into a handgun too . . . that looks about right.

Try reading a book called "Vorpal Blade" by John Ringo. (First book in the series was "Through the Looking Glass"). For one character, their armorer does exactly that.
Raizer
It sound like your firearms project is similar to a project i did for my campaign. Its an excel file...anyone interested in seeing it? Just PM me your email and I'll gladly share.

Ive classified weapons as:

Pistols: Holdout, Light Pistol, Medium Pistol, Heavy Pistol, Revolver
Automatics: Machine Pistol, SMG, Carbine, Assault Rifle
Longams: Sniper Rifle, Sport Rifle, SHotgun

and classified Ammo as

Pistol: Light, Medium, Heavy
Revolver: Light, Medium, Heavy
Rifle: Light, Medium, Heavy, Super HEavy
Shotgun: Light, Heavy

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