An innocuous little spell, How do mundanes notice a spell? Options

[McCummhail]

I know that under normal circumstances everyone has a chance to notice a spell:

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a
threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force.

Does this mean that a spell above force 6 is automatically noticable?

Also, a magic user has a chance to detect spells that were used on them even when not paying attention:

This does not mean, however, that the magician is aware such
spells are being used. The gamemaster should make a secret Intuition
+ Magic (3) Test to determine if (and to what extent) the magician
noticed the defense.

What about a mundane? Will they know that a spell was cast on them if they didn't see it being cast? Would they be able to tell what hit them?
You won't always have a friendly magician to cover you.

My current game features no magically active characters,
so they have no magical backup.

[Bugfoxmaster]

My figuring is that when a spell is cast, there's just something there - everyone has SOME sort of magic-sense, just that mundanes' isn't strong enough to actually use it. Thus, when a spell is cast, that 'ripple' in the field of magic is sort of felt by everyone around, and they make the perception test to see if they notice that ripple (with bigger ripples being more noticeable), and any spell with a force above six just being too big for any living person to ignore - it's not visible or audible, just an eerie feeling, of an indeterminate nature from an indeterminate source (someone who didn't know what magic was would really have no way of figuring out what the feeling was).
Of course, this is just my guess, since I've always thought that machines can't really detect magic at all. You or your GM may think differently, thus leading to pixie dust, sparkles, big light-shows, and so on when a powerful spell is cast. It's your call (unless there's actually something in the book about this that I totally missed?)

[Mäx]

Of course, this is just my guess, since I've always thought that machines can't really detect magic at all. You or your GM may think differently, thus leading to pixie dust, sparkles, big light-shows, and so on when a powerful spell is cast. It's your call (unless there's actually something in the book about this that I totally missed?)

Following the first quote in the OP Anniversary corebook has this sentence:
"More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster."

[Bugfoxmaster]

So there really is a bunch of light and pixie dust!
Haven't seen the Anniversary thing in detail, but there you go...

[Cadmus]

So that means, If I have a Pixie mage with good char, I can con people into beliving, Why no I didn't cast a spell. didn't see all the pixie dust? its just all me baby (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Following the first quote in the OP Anniversary corebook has this sentence:
"More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster."

Something I never saw before in the 6^th World. I know our group plans to ignore the new fluff bit here after mature discussion.

As to noticing the "something" when casting, we're currently looking at:

Organic MAGic(Spellcasting) means if they're a Mystic Adept, the number of power points in Spellcasting, or if a full Magician, the full MAGic stat. In both cases, no modifiers apply (foci or whatever).

Threshold = [Organic MAGic(Spellcasting) - Force], minimum 1

With a modifier to the DP :
IF(Force>Organic MAGic(Spellcasting),Force-Organic MAGic(Spellcasting))

The idea is if you're overcasting, you can't contain the mana correctly and it "spills over" into the Prime, which WILL product the mentioned effect. Otherwise, a very powerful Magus should have an easy time directing the trickle of power (relative to their experience) necessary for a very low Force spell.

Shamans should have a +Force DP modifier of the observer due to the Shamanic Mask. An Initiate utilizing Centering metamagic might apply a +Initiate Level modifier as they use more and more elaborate techniques to chanel the mana in order to resist the effective drain.

Anyhow, that's how we're planning to run it. A 6^th Grade Initiate with MAGic 12 should barely have to flick an eye in order to get off a Force 1 spell, which means the entire process should be correspondingly harder. As you approach your maximimum "safe" capacity to channel mana, the effects (however you describe it in fluff) should become more noticable.

[crazyconscript]

I have to say i do like this expansion of how to detect magic. Otherwise every time you cook off a Force 5+ spell, everyone who is still standing will proceed to the standard tactic of "geek the mage" with extreme predjudice. I like how this way raises your max "stealth" casting as you raise your magic
Also makes dragons so much meaner with their high magic rating since it is harder to tell when they are casting, as it should be.



not that i ever plan on throwing a dragon at my players...

[McCummhail]

That is the crux of my problem.
Even a rocket can be fired so that the target doesn't see it coming.
With my mundane group of runners I suspect that any mind control will wipe the party (they wouldn't know he was controlled).
I do like the idea of "Perception Threshold=[Force]-[Spellcasting]", but that would make things even worse for mundanes.

[Bugfoxmaster]

It all matters whether the end result in mind is realism (well, functional realism - magic can't really be stated to be real in any case), safety for mundanes from magical threats (or at least KNOWLEDGE of the threats...) or a tendency towards prior editions.
Looking over earlier books, what Kerenshara said is right - there's no 'glow of mana' evident, unless we're talking about a shamanic mask, which is only present in, logically, shamanic traditions. Thus, if you'd like to go that way, dropping the 4A addition is an option.
The other option, (Organic Magic - Force), seems like the most interesting, logical, and downright REALISTIC (besides the magic-is-not-real thing) method, but screws mundanes against reasonably powerful mages.
And, of course, to keep mundanes alive, there's the book option - this could, I'd say, be made even less dangerous for mundane characters by lowering the threshold from (6 - Force) to (5 - Force) or even (4 - Force), with a minimum of 1. That's just a GM Fiat ruling, but there you go.
Also, for mind rapery like control thoughts and Mob Mind, you could just refrain from using them, or use them very sparingly.

[McCummhail]

It has been several years since I played SR3 and quite a bit longer since my SR2 days, but I seem to remember that even then it was something like a 'TN=10-[force]' to notice a spell being cast.
I unfortunately don't have books on hand to confirm or deny that though.

[Kerenshara]

It all matters whether the end result in mind is realism (well, functional realism - magic can't really be stated to be real in any case), safety for mundanes from magical threats (or at least KNOWLEDGE of the threats...) or a tendency towards prior editions.
Looking over earlier books, what Kerenshara said is right - there's no 'glow of mana' evident, unless we're talking about a shamanic mask, which is only present in, logically, shamanic traditions. Thus, if you'd like to go that way, dropping the 4A addition is an option.
The other option, (Organic Magic - Force), seems like the most interesting, logical, and downright REALISTIC (besides the magic-is-not-real thing) method, but screws mundanes against reasonably powerful mages.
And, of course, to keep mundanes alive, there's the book option - this could, I'd say, be made even less dangerous for mundane characters by lowering the threshold from (6 - Force) to (5 - Force) or even (4 - Force), with a minimum of 1. That's just a GM Fiat ruling, but there you go.
Also, for mind rapery like control thoughts and Mob Mind, you could just refrain from using them, or use them very sparingly.

Um, news flash:

Against a Initiate Grade 6 Mage, most mundanes (who aren't 'runners) are pretty well hosed. It keeps coming back to this:

If you don't wear armor, you can't complain that guns are overpowered.

If you don't have extra IPs, you can't complain Samurai and Adepts are overpowered.

If you don't have a decker/rigger on your team, you can't complain about getting bent over by the enemy's drones or blown by their hackers.

And most importantly:

IF YOU DON'T HAVE MAGICAL SUPPORT, YOU CAN'T BITCH ABOUT MAGES BEING OVERPOWERED.

Everything in it's place. To an un-augmented (meta)human, an adept or Samurai must seem godlike. The things deckers do with 1s and 0s seem like wizardry, and Riggers seem like the ultimate puppet masters. Why should manaslingers be any diferent? How do you spot a Samurai? Or a Decker? Or a TMancer? Or an adept? If you can figure that the woman with the pointy hat is a mage and decide to geek them first, power to you. But I don't think it's apropriate to just introduce a mechanic to make that task trivially easy.

[Bugfoxmaster]

I understand (and actually agree) that magic is powerful, different, and by the written rules, is quite damned hard to detect (and logically should be even harder, since a powerful mage would know what he/she was doing). What you're saying is very true - if you don't use the necessary tools, then the job's going to be impossible. If you don't have magical help, going against a powerful mage is going to leave you dead.
But still, some players and GMs (myself not included among these) believe that magic is overpowered. I don't believe that, but I've seen that view expressed on these boards. If a group should like to play with rules that weaken magic, and don't push that view on others, allowing those same others to play in the manner that they like, I don't see a problem.
Similarly, those of us who'd like to keep the rules as written, or even make magic more powerful (or more logical, as with your alternate rule), should be free to play as we like, and shouldn't try and push that view on others. The game's played for fun, not to satisfy some invisible 'standard'. If a group WOULD like to introduce that mechanic, that's their right. If you don't like that rule, you shouldn't have to use it, and of course, wouldn't. And that's perfectly all right.

[Kerenshara]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I could give a flying slot about the mechanics with that particular set of quotes. It's a sentiment in general.

In my experience, most people who think magic is way OP are either ignorant of the way it works, or have played with people who... creatively ignored, shall we say, the limits on it.

One thing I always seem to find in common amongst the people who bitch and moan about magic is that they regard drain as "no big deal", becasue one of the other party members with a R6 medkit, Logic out the wazoo and no skill to speak of can heal them up to full in 18 seconds. If that's the way you see it, and are willing to take the pain and discomfort, ignoring the RP aspects, then yes, every time, magic is way the slot overpowered.

But if your mage actively tries to avoid drain, like they should, until they have to, then magic fits in pretty well.

And mages drop pretty quick from the full auto burst from your Ares HVAR, so I don't care to hear about Stun Bolt. Just switch ammunition and mod in a permanent suppressor and there you go.

[Bugfoxmaster]

Hmm... You have a point.
It does get pretty tiring hearing 'Manabolt/Stunbolt OP Ban Now!!!'
It boils down to style of play, (un?)fortunately, so at least off the boards, people can play how they want.

[Kerenshara]

Hmm... You have a point.
It does get pretty tiring hearing 'Manabolt/Stunbolt OP Ban Now!!!'
It boils down to style of play, (un?)fortunately, so at least off the boards, people can play how they want.

Now that I think about it, last I checked, the RAW were so open and broad about spell defense, all it takes to neutralize an enemy mage is... a mage of your own with counterspelling who says "Oh, and I'll be counterspelling today..."

[McCummhail]

Noticing Magic
Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effects in the physical world. An observer has to notice the magician's intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, small gestures and changes like the shamanic mask (p.163). The raw power and complexity of an effect determines how visible the magician's efforts are...

Most of this is word for word the same as SR4.
SR3 Perception Test: TN = 4 + [caster's magic] - [force] (+/- modifiers to TN)
SR4 Perception Test: Threshold = 6 - [force] (+/- modifiers to DP)

[Bugfoxmaster]

You're right, they're very similar, but the new addition is in 4A, the part about glowy fairy pixie dust. That's new, and I personally don't think I like it very much at all. Makes a farce of the genre.

[Jaid]

yeah, i personally prefer the spidey sense.

incidentally, i am of the opinion that magic is really powerful. not because of stunbolt (or even stunball, manaball, or powerball, for that matter).

more because of stuff like influence, levitate, physical mask, improved invisibility, spirit concealment, etc. even those aren't necessarily game-breaking on their own, though. it's when you start putting them together and getting creative with their use. it's the stuff that just isn't really doable with mundane stuff that makes magic powerful.

gamebreakingly powerful? probably not, provided the targets your team face are taking precautions against magic. but i *would* put it as being more powerful than much of the rest of the game, and i don't think reducing it's power in some areas is game-breakingly bad.

as to the drain = pain argument, well, i might argue that you'd never get used to getting punched in the stomach repeatedly, or to having your arms twisted nearly out of your socket, and yet there seem to be plenty of boxers and wrestlers in the world last i checked. at the upper level, in SR terms, you're looking at eating 5 or 6 points of damage easily from a skilled human boxer (5 strength is 3 damage, another 2-3 from martial arts, plus one from the net hit required... your soak pool is probably not more than 7 or 8 without armor, so you're looking at 6-7 damage before soak, 4-5 after, assuming average... sometimes that will be 8, sometimes it'll be 3, depending on random chance)

so yes, i'm inclined to think that a professional shadowrunner magician really should be getting used to taking drain. joe wagemage who gets paid well just to put force 3 wards around a few places a day, probably not so much.

[McCummhail]

You're right, they're very similar, but the new addition is in 4A, the part about glowy fairy pixie dust. That's new, and I personally don't think I like it very much at all. Makes a farce of the genre.

SR3: "...minus the force of the magic being performed."

SR4: "...minus the magic's Force - More powerful magic is easier to spot."

SR4A: "...minus the magic's Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster."

I don't see what is so objectionable, but then people argue till they are red in the face about religion and politics.

Regardless of the semantics, I guess my runners only have a chance against a magical threat if it is loud obvious and direct.

[Draco18s]

SR3: "...minus the force of the magic being performed."

SR4: "...minus the magic's Force - More powerful magic is easier to spot."

SR4A: "...minus the magic's Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster."

What I see here:

line 1) Rules

2) Rules, plus a bit of explanetory fluff.

3) Rules, a bit of explanetory fluff, and rationalization for what happens with the rules at Force 6+ (aka Bull Sh't).

[Bugfoxmaster]

You're right - not much difference and it's not obviously objectionable.
I just don't like fairy dust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Personal gripe, not anything actually relevant to the game rules.

[Muspellsheimr]

And what it should say:
"...minus the magic's Force. More powerful magic is easier to notice."

It's not a visual Perception test. It should not have visual components (including the phrase 'spot').

[siel]

 

as to the drain = pain argument, well, i might argue that you'd never get used to getting punched in the stomach repeatedly, or to having your arms twisted nearly out of your socket, and yet there seem to be plenty of boxers and wrestlers in the world last i checked. at the upper level, in SR terms, you're looking at eating 5 or 6 points of damage easily from a skilled human boxer (5 strength is 3 damage, another 2-3 from martial arts, plus one from the net hit required... your soak pool is probably not more than 7 or 8 without armor, so you're looking at 6-7 damage before soak, 4-5 after, assuming average... sometimes that will be 8, sometimes it'll be 3, depending on random chance)

so yes, i'm inclined to think that a professional shadowrunner magician really should be getting used to taking drain. joe wagemage who gets paid well just to put force 3 wards around a few places a day, probably not so much.

But by that logic, the boxers really can't take more than two good hits and the fights certainly wouldn't last for minutes..

[Bugfoxmaster]

Hmm... Maybe all boxers are wearing invisible impact armor?
But seriously, tabletop RPG's really aren't able to make sense of, numeralize, and replicate real life. Reality is unrealistic.
On the topic at hand, what kind of perception test would it be, I wonder. Some sort of 'mana-sense'?
Or just 'Nope. You get no Specialization here...'

[Muspellsheimr]

Hmm... Maybe all boxers are wearing gloves specifically designed to blunt impact?


It's a simple Perception; not visual, audio, etc. Could be compared to a gut feeling, sixth sense, or 'spider sense'. Each one falls under the Perception skill, but separate from the 5 standard forms.


Edit: Best comparison would be to how you can 'feel' someone watching you. You can't see them. You can't hear them. You certainly do not smell or taste the action of watching. Not a tactical sense. What, then, is it?