I know that under normal circumstances everyone has a chance to notice a spell:
Does this mean that a spell above force 6 is automatically noticable?

Also, a magic user has a chance to detect spells that were used on them even when not paying attention:
What about a mundane? Will they know that a spell was cast on them if they didn't see it being cast? Would they be able to tell what hit them?
You won't always have a friendly magician to cover you.

My current game features no magically active characters,
so they have no magical backup.

My figuring is that when a spell is cast, there's just something there - everyone has SOME sort of magic-sense, just that mundanes' isn't strong enough to actually use it. Thus, when a spell is cast, that 'ripple' in the field of magic is sort of felt by everyone around, and they make the perception test to see if they notice that ripple (with bigger ripples being more noticeable), and any spell with a force above six just being too big for any living person to ignore - it's not visible or audible, just an eerie feeling, of an indeterminate nature from an indeterminate source (someone who didn't know what magic was would really have no way of figuring out what the feeling was).
Of course, this is just my guess, since I've always thought that machines can't really detect magic at all. You or your GM may think differently, thus leading to pixie dust, sparkles, big light-shows, and so on when a powerful spell is cast. It's your call (unless there's actually something in the book about this that I totally missed?)

Following the first quote in the OP Anniversary corebook has this sentence:
"More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster."

So there really is a bunch of light and pixie dust!
Haven't seen the Anniversary thing in detail, but there you go...

So that means, If I have a Pixie mage with good char, I can con people into beliving, Why no I didn't cast a spell. didn't see all the pixie dust? its just all me baby

Something I never saw before in the 6^th World. I know our group plans to ignore the new fluff bit here after mature discussion.

As to noticing the "something" when casting, we're currently looking at:

Organic MAGic(Spellcasting) means if they're a Mystic Adept, the number of power points in Spellcasting, or if a full Magician, the full MAGic stat. In both cases, no modifiers apply (foci or whatever).

Threshold = [Organic MAGic(Spellcasting) - Force], minimum 1

With a modifier to the DP :
IF(Force>Organic MAGic(Spellcasting),Force-Organic MAGic(Spellcasting))

The idea is if you're overcasting, you can't contain the mana correctly and it "spills over" into the Prime, which WILL product the mentioned effect. Otherwise, a very powerful Magus should have an easy time directing the trickle of power (relative to their experience) necessary for a very low Force spell.

Shamans should have a +Force DP modifier of the observer due to the Shamanic Mask. An Initiate utilizing Centering metamagic might apply a +Initiate Level modifier as they use more and more elaborate techniques to chanel the mana in order to resist the effective drain.

Anyhow, that's how we're planning to run it. A 6^th Grade Initiate with MAGic 12 should barely have to flick an eye in order to get off a Force 1 spell, which means the entire process should be correspondingly harder. As you approach your maximimum "safe" capacity to channel mana, the effects (however you describe it in fluff) should become more noticable.

I have to say i do like this expansion of how to detect magic. Otherwise every time you cook off a Force 5+ spell, everyone who is still standing will proceed to the standard tactic of "geek the mage" with extreme predjudice. I like how this way raises your max "stealth" casting as you raise your magic
Also makes dragons so much meaner with their high magic rating since it is harder to tell when they are casting, as it should be.



not that i ever plan on throwing a dragon at my players...

That is the crux of my problem.
Even a rocket can be fired so that the target doesn't see it coming.
With my mundane group of runners I suspect that any mind control will wipe the party (they wouldn't know he was controlled).
I do like the idea of "Perception Threshold=[Force]-[Spellcasting]", but that would make things even worse for mundanes.

It all matters whether the end result in mind is realism (well, functional realism - magic can't really be stated to be real in any case), safety for mundanes from magical threats (or at least KNOWLEDGE of the threats...) or a tendency towards prior editions.
Looking over earlier books, what Kerenshara said is right - there's no 'glow of mana' evident, unless we're talking about a shamanic mask, which is only present in, logically, shamanic traditions. Thus, if you'd like to go that way, dropping the 4A addition is an option.
The other option, (Organic Magic - Force), seems like the most interesting, logical, and downright REALISTIC (besides the magic-is-not-real thing) method, but screws mundanes against reasonably powerful mages.
And, of course, to keep mundanes alive, there's the book option - this could, I'd say, be made even less dangerous for mundane characters by lowering the threshold from (6 - Force) to (5 - Force) or even (4 - Force), with a minimum of 1. That's just a GM Fiat ruling, but there you go.
Also, for mind rapery like control thoughts and Mob Mind, you could just refrain from using them, or use them very sparingly.

It has been several years since I played SR3 and quite a bit longer since my SR2 days, but I seem to remember that even then it was something like a 'TN=10-[force]' to notice a spell being cast.
I unfortunately don't have books on hand to confirm or deny that though.

Um, news flash:

Against a Initiate Grade 6 Mage, most mundanes (who aren't 'runners) are pretty well hosed. It keeps coming back to this:

If you don't wear armor, you can't complain that guns are overpowered.

If you don't have extra IPs, you can't complain Samurai and Adepts are overpowered.

If you don't have a decker/rigger on your team, you can't complain about getting bent over by the enemy's drones or blown by their hackers.

And most importantly:

IF YOU DON'T HAVE MAGICAL SUPPORT, YOU CAN'T BITCH ABOUT MAGES BEING OVERPOWERED.

Everything in it's place. To an un-augmented (meta)human, an adept or Samurai must seem godlike. The things deckers do with 1s and 0s seem like wizardry, and Riggers seem like the ultimate puppet masters. Why should manaslingers be any diferent? How do you spot a Samurai? Or a Decker? Or a TMancer? Or an adept? If you can figure that the woman with the pointy hat is a mage and decide to geek them first, power to you. But I don't think it's apropriate to just introduce a mechanic to make that task trivially easy.

I understand (and actually agree) that magic is powerful, different, and by the written rules, is quite damned hard to detect (and logically should be even harder, since a powerful mage would know what he/she was doing). What you're saying is very true - if you don't use the necessary tools, then the job's going to be impossible. If you don't have magical help, going against a powerful mage is going to leave you dead.
But still, some players and GMs (myself not included among these) believe that magic is overpowered. I don't believe that, but I've seen that view expressed on these boards. If a group should like to play with rules that weaken magic, and don't push that view on others, allowing those same others to play in the manner that they like, I don't see a problem.
Similarly, those of us who'd like to keep the rules as written, or even make magic more powerful (or more logical, as with your alternate rule), should be free to play as we like, and shouldn't try and push that view on others. The game's played for fun, not to satisfy some invisible 'standard'. If a group WOULD like to introduce that mechanic, that's their right. If you don't like that rule, you shouldn't have to use it, and of course, wouldn't. And that's perfectly all right.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I could give a flying slot about the mechanics with that particular set of quotes. It's a sentiment in general.

In my experience, most people who think magic is way OP are either ignorant of the way it works, or have played with people who... creatively ignored, shall we say, the limits on it.

One thing I always seem to find in common amongst the people who bitch and moan about magic is that they regard drain as "no big deal", becasue one of the other party members with a R6 medkit, Logic out the wazoo and no skill to speak of can heal them up to full in 18 seconds. If that's the way you see it, and are willing to take the pain and discomfort, ignoring the RP aspects, then yes, every time, magic is way the slot overpowered.

But if your mage actively tries to avoid drain, like they should, until they have to, then magic fits in pretty well.

And mages drop pretty quick from the full auto burst from your Ares HVAR, so I don't care to hear about Stun Bolt. Just switch ammunition and mod in a permanent suppressor and there you go.

Hmm... You have a point.
It does get pretty tiring hearing 'Manabolt/Stunbolt OP Ban Now!!!'
It boils down to style of play, (un?)fortunately, so at least off the boards, people can play how they want.

Now that I think about it, last I checked, the RAW were so open and broad about spell defense, all it takes to neutralize an enemy mage is... a mage of your own with counterspelling who says "Oh, and I'll be counterspelling today..."

Most of this is word for word the same as SR4.
SR3 Perception Test: TN = 4 + [caster's magic] - [force] (+/- modifiers to TN)
SR4 Perception Test: Threshold = 6 - [force] (+/- modifiers to DP)

You're right, they're very similar, but the new addition is in 4A, the part about glowy fairy pixie dust. That's new, and I personally don't think I like it very much at all. Makes a farce of the genre.

yeah, i personally prefer the spidey sense.

incidentally, i am of the opinion that magic is really powerful. not because of stunbolt (or even stunball, manaball, or powerball, for that matter).

more because of stuff like influence, levitate, physical mask, improved invisibility, spirit concealment, etc. even those aren't necessarily game-breaking on their own, though. it's when you start putting them together and getting creative with their use. it's the stuff that just isn't really doable with mundane stuff that makes magic powerful.

gamebreakingly powerful? probably not, provided the targets your team face are taking precautions against magic. but i *would* put it as being more powerful than much of the rest of the game, and i don't think reducing it's power in some areas is game-breakingly bad.

as to the drain = pain argument, well, i might argue that you'd never get used to getting punched in the stomach repeatedly, or to having your arms twisted nearly out of your socket, and yet there seem to be plenty of boxers and wrestlers in the world last i checked. at the upper level, in SR terms, you're looking at eating 5 or 6 points of damage easily from a skilled human boxer (5 strength is 3 damage, another 2-3 from martial arts, plus one from the net hit required... your soak pool is probably not more than 7 or 8 without armor, so you're looking at 6-7 damage before soak, 4-5 after, assuming average... sometimes that will be 8, sometimes it'll be 3, depending on random chance)

so yes, i'm inclined to think that a professional shadowrunner magician really should be getting used to taking drain. joe wagemage who gets paid well just to put force 3 wards around a few places a day, probably not so much.

SR3: "...minus the force of the magic being performed."

SR4: "...minus the magic's Force - More powerful magic is easier to spot."

SR4A: "...minus the magic's Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster."

I don't see what is so objectionable, but then people argue till they are red in the face about religion and politics.

Regardless of the semantics, I guess my runners only have a chance against a magical threat if it is loud obvious and direct.

What I see here:

line 1) Rules

2) Rules, plus a bit of explanetory fluff.

3) Rules, a bit of explanetory fluff, and rationalization for what happens with the rules at Force 6+ (aka Bull Sh't).

You're right - not much difference and it's not obviously objectionable.
I just don't like fairy dust.
Personal gripe, not anything actually relevant to the game rules.

And what it should say:
"...minus the magic's Force. More powerful magic is easier to notice."

It's not a visual Perception test. It should not have visual components (including the phrase 'spot').

 

But by that logic, the boxers really can't take more than two good hits and the fights certainly wouldn't last for minutes..

Hmm... Maybe all boxers are wearing invisible impact armor?
But seriously, tabletop RPG's really aren't able to make sense of, numeralize, and replicate real life. Reality is unrealistic.
On the topic at hand, what kind of perception test would it be, I wonder. Some sort of 'mana-sense'?
Or just 'Nope. You get no Specialization here...'

Hmm... Maybe all boxers are wearing gloves specifically designed to blunt impact?


It's a simple Perception; not visual, audio, etc. Could be compared to a gut feeling, sixth sense, or 'spider sense'. Each one falls under the Perception skill, but separate from the 5 standard forms.


Edit: Best comparison would be to how you can 'feel' someone watching you. You can't see them. You can't hear them. You certainly do not smell or taste the action of watching. Not a tactical sense. What, then, is it?

Boxers also wear heavily padded gloves.
UFC fights have much lighter padded gloves than boxers and are significantly shorter.
Bareknuckle boxing only lasts any length of time when the boxers have granite jaws, excellent defenses or are pussy-footing around.

There is a magical perception specialization, assensing.

Which Mundanes can't get.

Whoops. Looks like we're back where we started. Mundanes have trouble sensing magic, unless it's powerful, which causes (possibly) fairy dust to fly around or something.

Hm... the whole debate from what I can see is the "pixie dust" line. I'd say that there is some effect like that, but keep in mind that the glow doesn't have to be more than instant, nor does it have to be obvious. That's what the Perception Test is for. In SR4 (before the Anniversary update), it said that Magic was easier to spot with higher Force and gave the same text about the test threshold, but gave no real justification for it.

And in all honesty, how long does it actually take to cast a spell? If we assume 4 IP per Combat Turn, and a spell takes a single Complex Action to cast, that means that it takes at most 0.75 seconds, something barely detectable by the human eye (again, Perception Test). You've got less than a second of a little glowy before your spell actually does its job. Note that I'm assuming here that all IP happen every Combat Turn, and 1 IP is the same length for you regardless of how many you have. It isn't explicit in the book, but the way I'm interpreting it is that you just can find more opportunities to act with more IP than you could with fewer.

Finally, the clarification fluff in the 4A book actually gives mundanes a slight advantage over casters, since otherwise there's no way that they could tell who's casting something at all. The guy loaded with cyber and carrying a HVAR is instantly obvious and clear as a very dangerous target, so why wouldn't the mage have to deal with some of that?

Hmm...
You know, maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed at that line if I DIDN'T have this horrdily annoying picture of a burst of sparkles erupting from the mage after he fires a Force 9 Manabolt off, causing some goon's head to implode or just shut off...
Still, a human eye can only detect something that occurs for at least 0.23 seconds. Thus, the glow IS quite percievable, especially when it's a (bigger?) more powerful one. Still, it troubles me that it's a GLOW at all - this would make it a visual perception test, which I'm not very comfortable with; I really liked the innate sense method much better. But then again, I guess it's in the rules...

Magic in Shadowrun is weird.

Now that that's out of the way, let me make a radical proposal.

The "sparks" aren't visible. You can "see" them in your mind, but having vision enhancement, cybereyes, etc. doesn't help you any. At least, that's how I'm going to play with it. So there is a glow, but it's a mana-caused glow that's sensed more than seen, and the Perception Test is just straight Perception, not visual or anything else.

Hurray for GM Fiat!
Well, at least there aren't any pixie-dust traces... That really didn't settle well with me.
.

With the image that generated,
I imagined a rave with magicians
overcasting cantrips for the trippy glow
to the beats of DJ GM Fiat!

Here is a fresh spin on the question;
if a mage casts a spell on a mundane,
would they know they had been cast upon?

When a manabolt/powerbolt hits them square,
would they be looking for the mysterious lorry?
when they pierce through an illusory veil,
would they piece together the story?

I'm not near the book, but I came across several speciffic rules for just those sorts of eventualities in Street Magic. The chances of noticing a spell cast on you depend on how observant (duh!) the character is of their surroundings. Generally, it's a pretty tough threshold so Jane Average and her brother Joe probably aren't going to pick up on it. Seasoned 'runners, however (you DID buy high levels of Perception, didn't you?) stand an excellent chance of noticing and/or figuring it out.

Hmmmmmm...

You know, I think I like that. I want to go away and think about it a little... but at heart I like it. It serves to make it a little harder, generally, to notice magic, which I like on the face of it. But the logic and the "fluff" explanation both appeal to me as well. Well done, Andinel.

As for the 'hidden lorry' interpretation of the 'bolt spells,
when a person's hit by it, they know SOMETHING's happened. The spells are nondirectional in nature, meaning that there si no trail or directed influence to follow - what they think the sudden pain that's making them dizzy (or just dropped them) is coming from is something only they could answer. A runner, guard or enemy mage is smart enough and has enough experience to realize that it's probably a 'bolt spell, while a civilian is.... not. And thus would be like 'OH CRAP, STROKE/ANEURYSM'. And then the second shot would kill/knock them out. At least that's the only thing that appears to make sense to me...

Perception test with a threshold of zero (0) at Force 6+, which means if the observer has dice they sense it.

Well I guess there is a drawback to overcasting and dropping force 10 stunbolts after all.
Although, being noticed might not be a massive issue at that point.

They will notice you summoning a force 10 spirit,
they would never know if you used a bound spirit though,
especially if it's an 'accident'.

But looking at mundane weapons a force 10 spell
is roughly on par with a panther assault cannon,
(with the drawback of possible drain and counterspelling)

Basically. Added bonus that the 'bolt is invisible, doesn't weigh anything, has no ammo (if you have enough drain dice) necessary, doesn't need to be aimed, and armor is worth exactly crap.
The Cannon, on the other hand is awesome, doesn't hurt the user, scares the crap out of everyone watching, is awesome, blows through walls and shields and whatever, can be your best friend (assuming you pick up the 'schizophrenic' quality), and did I mention awesome?

EXACTLY!

Thank you! That's what I've been saying all along.

So a force 10 spell is as noticable as a panther assault cannon,
because of (insert character appropriate fluff here)

Maybe I played way to much Ars Magica, but you know, I actually like powerful spells cast in my game to have some flash and sound and fury. The same as the examples given above, if your throwing a force 10 spell then you will stand out the same as the guy who fired the panther assault cannon. As an aside, I hate the way direct damage spells in the game work. Always throught they were ether too low in drain or to high in damage.

Back on topic, modifying the rule from SR3 a bit will land you something like: Threshold = 3 + Magic - Force.
This will let high magic people cast spells that are harder to notice, while making lower magic people easier to notice. I settled on 3 as the base since the default stat is 3. That gives you a threshold of 6 for your average spell slinger.

Cheers

*waggles hand* depends on the caster IMHO (see my formula above).

OTOH, a F10 spell is really hefty mojo, no matter how you cut it. And if you tag a living being with a F10 Force Bolt, the results are going to be at LEAST as spectacular as an assault cannon round arriving on target...

"You splatter Hunk all over the room. It looks like somebody exploded a vat of beef stroganoff. The patrons run and scream in horror slipping and sliding in the blood and entrails."

"Cool".

*grin*

To add my 2 cents between tasks at work:

I really like the idea of high force spells being noticable but disaprove of the implimentation as presented aka - farie dust. I've always allowed the mage themselves define "how" thier casting is noticable the same way they flesh out their tradition/ character etc. Do hackes rise on everyon in a 2 block radius when you cast that mob mood spell at force (OH NOEZE!) or does a thundering, necrotic darkness ooze forth from your location as you lay down Force 12 hell?

I've always held the effects are purely mana based, basically "overflow" from the spell, though I have opted for real side effects on huge levels of success/ forse or glitches. There is no noise, or rumbling, but there is the sensation of noise and rumbling. People who know what they are doing can tell the diffence the same way that people can tell the diffrance from Banana and artifical banana flavouring... its just not quite right.

But then I mostly try to use the magic system to add horror and wonder to my games more then to add to the boom stick on any particular side of a fight.

Back in SR2 I remember some text about how high force spirits on the astral sometimes caused a ripple (shimmer?) on the physical plane. I kind of liked that and we've used it ever since as a kind of mana-ripple for high force effects. So a high force manabolt will cause a shimmer in the air (like heat haze) which is perceptible in the same way as a mana illusion (ie. not to cameras, machines, etc.)

Of course low force spells are fairly imperceptible. There's a short fiction piece in Runner's Companion that describes getting manabolted (or something similar) quite well. An ork ganger is facing off against three guys one of whom is smiling strangely at him. Suddenly he feels like he is having a heart attack or stroke with blood in his mouth and he hits the floor. It takes him a moment or two to realise the smiling guy just put the whammy on him.

I don't like the pixie dust description but I'm sure the authors were just trying to convey that there is a visible effect which can be noticed and that the GM should insert an appropriate description! I'll stick to the shimmer as I like it a lot!

I like that description - the mana illusion shimmer - a lot better too. I was the one with the pixie dust thing originally, and I have to say I MEANT IT AS A JOKE! I didn't think people would seriously think of the visibility as a pixie/fairy dust glow...

If you're overcasting, I don't fundamentally have a problem with a mana shimmer due to failure to properly channel the mana fully (you ARE overcasting after all). But to say any high force spirit has a blatant visual que, that's just too much of a divergence of the past edditions IMHO. Mages had to maintain continuous focused eye contact with their target, which was what you noticed, and why higher force was more noticable - it took more concentration/time to channel. If you're a high level initiate, it's easier to toss the lowball Force spells off the cuff, and thus harder to see. Shamans had the mask, which was visually easier to notice, and the old systems had bonuses for that aspect over a conventional mage. But I don't want to feel like I'm playing in a MMORPG because somebody decided mana-effects during casting were cool. Sorry. But that's my opinion.

I agree Kerenshara. We should revert to some form of the SR3 rules. An hour ago I thought about 3 + (Magic/2) - Force (or similar), just due to having excessively high force spells, even by a high level initiate be still noticeable.

Eg. Magic 16, Force 10 = TN 1

Force 10 magic is some serious mojo, even if you can cast up to Force 16 without overcasting. I'd also say that the minimum is TN 1, and any "extra" simply adds dice to the observer's dice pool. 3+16-10 = 9 is just a little too much (a TN of 9 to notice magic is going to be tough for anyone).

Eg. Magic 16, Force 16 = TN 1, +6 dice.

So even a comatose mundane feels that sucker go off.

Obviously it needs to be balanced a little.

changing the formula is fine, but if you make it look too ugly nobody's gonna want to use it...

OK Draco, I like where you're going. Let's go back a bit and look at this.

We want initiates to be able to get off the low level spells easy like.

We want ovecasting to be obvious.

We want really big spells to be obvious too... but I think a really high level initiate will be able to hide things pretty well.

How about this:

Threshold = [MAGic - (Force+1) ], Minimum 1, but if the number is negative, add the negative number as a positive DP modifier.

So, if MAGic 6 throwing Force 10, it's threshold 1, +5 modifier to their dice pool?

But MAGic 10 throwing Force 6, it's threshold 3?

The roll is [INTuition + Perception] with NO modifiers because it's more sensed than seen, unless it's overcasting, in which case it allows non-accessory (implanted, magical or quality) enhancements to vision to help out? (Non-ESSence devices can't perceive mana.)

That keeps the formula simple, the roll simple, and the amount of extra work to a bare minimum, and it's a fixed number for everybody watching.

How's that?