Shifting archtypes due to increased attribute costs, FBR viable now? Bio-adepts no longer top dogs? Options

[Tyro]

I've been away from the forums for a while, and so missed out on all but the earliest discussion of SR4A. I got to thinking about how increased attribute costs would invalidate some formerly common build types (bio-adepts) and make others more powerful (full-body replacement). What do you think?

[The Jake]

I never understood why attributes were more expensive than skills in the first place to be honest....

- J.

[Bull]

Because of the Skill + Attribute dice mechanic. You're only going to use a skill for one particular, fairly narrow set of tests. But most attributes factor into not only a whole bunch of skill tests per attribute, but also often factor into other areas of the games as well (Initiative, Boxes of Damage, How much armor you can wear, melee weapon damage, resistances, etc).

Pound for Pound, Attributes are simply worth more than Skills. A lot more.

[Tachi]

Don't feel bad. I've been gone for about six months. Just got home internet again about a week ago and had to catch up. Suddenly, I'm like 4a? What the hell is that? Plus two(one?) other books I'd never heard of. I feel like a lost little boy. Plus, even worse, I just wasted most of my money paying for college, damnit, how am I supposed to buy important stuff like Shadowrun books if I keep wasting my money on useless stuff like college? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Ancient History]

Attributes apply directly to tests for multiple skills, attribute-only tests, and secondary character traits like Initiative. Anybody with half a brain who has the option of raising an attribute vs. raising a skill when the cost is equal or better will raise the attribute. To encourage players away from making a bunch of Olympic athletes at CharGen, the cost of raising attributes is raised. You can still use augmentations et al., natch, and that'll be more attractive since attributes cost more.

[Warlordtheft]

Don't feel bad. I've been gone for about six months. Just got home internet again about a week ago and had to catch up. Suddenly, I'm like 4a? What the hell is that? Plus two(one?) other books I'd never heard of. I feel like a lost little boy. Plus, even worse, I just wasted most of my money paying for college, damnit, how am I supposed to buy important stuff like Shadowrun books if I keep wasting my money on useless stuff like college? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Get a job, pay taxes, pay your mortgage/rent, buy your groceries, pay your utilities/bills. Then save the $0.02 left until you
can afford it.

or

Personally I'd just stop paying taxes and claim extraterritorality. Then you'll have 30% more money and dilpomatic immunity! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[CodeBreaker]

DumpShock - Fixing your economic problems, the Shadowrun Way!

[Tachi]

Personally I'd just stop paying taxes and claim extraterritorality. Then you'll have 30% more money and dilpomatic immunity! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

he. I wish.

[BlueMax]

Attributes >value> Skills.

Now if only there was a Race that got a bonus to Agility and Charisma, they would be super point efficient.


BlueMax

[Kerenshara]

Attributes apply directly to tests for multiple skills, attribute-only tests, and secondary character traits like Initiative. Anybody with half a brain who has the option of raising an attribute vs. raising a skill when the cost is equal or better will raise the attribute. To encourage players away from making a bunch of Olympic athletes at CharGen, the cost of raising attributes is raised. You can still use augmentations et al., natch, and that'll be more attractive since attributes cost more.

Keep in mind what attributes really represent as well. It's much easier to focus your efforts on a particular task to improve skill, but to significantly improve all the multiple facets represented by a raw statistic takes tremendous effort.

STRength isn't just lifting weights: it's endurance (swimming), it's toning, and it's the simplest.

BODy is health, and bulk, and resilience and pain resistance.

AGIlity and REAction, it's incredibly hard to raise those base stats.

And how do you fundamentally improve your CHArisma?

Just a thought.

[toturi]

While there are more things that Attributes are more useful at, they already cost more than any single individual skill. Although they had cost less than a Skill Group, skills can be worth a lot more than Attributes in certain cases. For example, if you default, that 1st level of skill is worth the BP/karma of itself and that one point of Attribute. So if you had increased Agility from 5 to 6 with karma, you are shortchanging yourself that level of skill plus the karma from 5 to 6.

Yet despite this, previously you'd load up on Attributes before you add your skills with BPs and that is when it was only Attribute Rating x 3. You want to encourage Attribute loading at chargen? Is that your objective here? Now logically, you'd load up on Attributes and buy minimal skills at chargen and then ramp up the skills with karma.

[X-Kalibur]

Keep in mind what attributes really represent as well. It's much easier to focus your efforts on a particular task to improve skill, but to significantly improve all the multiple facets represented by a raw statistic takes tremendous effort.

STRength isn't just lifting weights: it's endurance (swimming), it's toning, and it's the simplest.

BODy is health, and bulk, and resilience and pain resistance.

AGIlity and REAction, it's incredibly hard to raise those base stats.

And how do you fundamentally improve your CHArisma?

Just a thought.

Do it like The Sims do... stand in front of a mirror practicing speech (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Glyph]

I don't understand how a higher cost of increasing Attributes is supposed to make a bio-adept less viable. If anything, higher Attribute costs will make getting muscle augmentation/toner even more tempting.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't understand how a higher cost of increasing Attributes is supposed to make a bio-adept less viable. If anything, higher Attribute costs will make getting muscle augmentation/toner even more tempting.

Agreed... though I don't see how it could be MORE tempting... I am already sold on the augments over the natural upgrades anyway...

[Tyro]

I don't understand how a higher cost of increasing Attributes is supposed to make a bio-adept less viable. If anything, higher Attribute costs will make getting muscle augmentation/toner even more tempting.

Because their growth potential is significantly curtailed by increased costs. Paying for higher Magic (assuming you use the total magic =/ effective magic model) gets ruinously expensive over time. Say I get 2 Essence worth of mods and 6 Magic total at character creation; I'm effectively paying (5*5) + (6*5) = 25 + 30 = FIFTY-FIVE Karma in addition to nuyen costs for my 'ware, AND increasing the cost of any future Magic gain by a huge margin. Compare this to the 33 Karma (5*3 + 6*3) it cost previously.

Any thoughts on full-body replacement? It's always been one of my favorite archtypes, and the prospect of replacing 3 stats entirely really appeals to me. The biggest disadvantage I see there is visibility; you can't really hide someone like that, especially if they get bulk modifications for their limbs.

[Glyph]

My point was that higher Attribute costs make it likelier that an adept will be tempted by the relatively cheap boost of bioware, rather than being a pure, unaugmented adept. Overall, higher costs to improve Attributes won't affect build point characters that much, since build points already encourage loading up on Attributes as much as possible, and getting them a bit lopsided (soft-maxing important ones, leaving others to be improved, more cheaply, later). For karmagen, Attributes being costlier will probably make dump stats more common again. Before, you could get what you wanted for your main Attributes, and 3's or 4's in the others. Now, 2's might be more common.


For full-body replacement, you are better off either as a jarhead, or an AI with an otomo body. The problem with cyberlimbs/torso/head is that they preclude a lot of bioware, and that they are very pricey, Essence-wise. Compared to someone with the optimal mix of cyberware and bioware, they are not as effective. Unless you really know what you're doing. Which is one of the reasons I stick with the biomods - they're lot more straightforward.

[Kerenshara]

My point was that higher Attribute costs make it likelier that an adept will be tempted by the relatively cheap boost of bioware, rather than being a pure, unaugmented adept. Overall, higher costs to improve Attributes won't affect build point characters that much, since build points already encourage loading up on Attributes as much as possible, and getting them a bit lopsided (soft-maxing important ones, leaving others to be improved, more cheaply, later). For karmagen, Attributes being costlier will probably make dump stats more common again. Before, you could get what you wanted for your main Attributes, and 3's or 4's in the others. Now, 2's might be more common.


For full-body replacement, you are better off either as a jarhead, or an AI with an otomo body. The problem with cyberlimbs/torso/head is that they preclude a lot of bioware, and that they are very pricey, Essence-wise. Compared to someone with the optimal mix of cyberware and bioware, they are not as effective. Unless you really know what you're doing. Which is one of the reasons I stick with the biomods - they're lot more straightforward.

But at the same time, they also dropped the price of attributes and IP Improvement in terms of magic points, so doesn't it just come out in the wash?

[Tyro]

<snip>

For full-body replacement, you are better off either as a jarhead, or an AI with an otomo body. The problem with cyberlimbs/torso/head is that they preclude a lot of bioware, and that they are very pricey, Essence-wise. Compared to someone with the optimal mix of cyberware and bioware, they are not as effective. Unless you really know what you're doing. Which is one of the reasons I stick with the biomods - they're lot more straightforward.

For the record, I use Karmagen exclusively. I consider AI's to be unbalanced, and you can't make a jarhead starting character without a VERY lenient gamemaster. Besides, both of those are just riggers taken to the logical extreme. I don't like the flavor.

But at the same time, they also dropped the price of attributes and IP Improvement in terms of magic points, so doesn't it just come out in the wash?

They increased the price of Combat Sense, which I tend to get a bunch of. The ones they made cheaper are mostly things which are better done with bioware, such as IP/Reaction enhancement and stat improvements.

[Edit:] What would you consider an optimal blend of bio and cyber?

[Glyph]

They increased the cost of combat sense? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) That didn't make it to the errata. The slight decreases to the cost of improved Attribute and improved reflexes make a pure adept slightly more viable, but they still don't come close to what you can get with bioware. For an example - synaptic booster: 2, muscle augmentation: 2, muscle toner: 2, and two reflex recorders (of combat skills). Assuming your augmented Attributes don't go over your maximum, you still get 6.5 power points' worth of abilities at the cost of losing two Magic points.


The optimal mix of cyberware and bioware can vary. Point-wise, you are best off getting as close to 50-50 as you can due to how Essense costs are calculated (4 points of cyberware and 3.8 points of bioware costs 5.9 points of Essense, for example). This isn't always feasible on a starting character's budget. But both offer a lot of similar things, which makes it easier to split them. Do you get wired reflexes with bone density augmentation and orthoskin, or do you get bone lacing and dermal sheathing with a synaptic booster? But you can get a heady mix of Attribute boosts, damage soaking buffs, improved Reaction and multiple initiative passes, senseware, and other goodies.

Someone getting full limb replacements is spending an awful lot on a chassis. Can you do that, have enough left for some initiative boosting, and use the capacity, customization, and armor capacity of cyberlimbs to make a decent character? Someone like Tarantula could probably do that with a lot of fussing and tweaking, but as I said, it's a bit too complicated for my taste (or maybe it's just my unfamiliarity with that subset of the rules).

[Tyro]

They increased the cost of combat sense? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) That didn't make it to the errata.

checks the errata document

My bad; I was working from (apparently faulty) memory. They really should have increased its cost, though.

[StealthSigma]

And how do you fundamentally improve your CHArisma?

Continuously get everyone you talk to shitfaced drunk. Granted it's not improving your charisma.... but it has the same effect!

[InfinityzeN]

Now if only there was a Race that got a bonus to Agility and Charisma, they would be super point efficient.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
Oh, I see what you did there...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Personally I've never liked the BP system since it does lead to such lopsided characters. Using a flat cost system for your character creation and a progressive cost system for in game improvements means you'll come out behind without mix-maxing. I know this is common knowledge now so no more beating the dead horse.

I'm a firm believer in the Karma build system. Actually, is you do the math with the new attribute cost the Karma Gen system is even more balanced to (highly optimized) BP builds then before.

Before, a human buying a attribute from 1 to 5 cost 42 karma (5.6%) compared to 40 BP (10%). Now it cost 70 karma (9.3~%) compared to 40BP (10%). This makes the Karma Gen system roughly equal for soft maxing attributes, while cheaper for lower levels.

The biggest advantage in the Karma Gen system for me though is that if a character ignores a attribute/skill in the begining, it will cost him the same in game as it would have in generation to get it up. Compared to BP where anything less than a soft max will actually be cheaper to increase in game, leading to stupid crazy builds you see today.

I actually lost a character playing Vampire back in the 90s (another flat cost creation/progressive cost in game system) and the ST let me add in 75% of my dead characters experience to keep me somewhere in the groups power range. I started building him like normal, then realized I had karm... XP to burn. I min-maxed him with the base points (dump stats everywhere!) and used the kar... XP to get them up to 2 or 3. Character ended up having better stats and skills then the dead one by far, with only a couple levels of disciplines lost. ST said "Guess I got a use a lower % of XP next time" and let me play him, but only because I build a good background which I let him read before showing him the character sheet.

[Kerenshara]

checks the errata document

My bad; I was working from (apparently faulty) memory. They really should have increased its cost, though.

I just checked my copy of the PDF (which is theoretically the print version) and it shows .5/level which is what I paid when I built Kerenshara in the original SR4.

[Totentanz]

Keep in mind what attributes really represent as well. It's much easier to focus your efforts on a particular task to improve skill, but to significantly improve all the multiple facets represented by a raw statistic takes tremendous effort.

STRength isn't just lifting weights: it's endurance (swimming), it's toning, and it's the simplest.

BODy is health, and bulk, and resilience and pain resistance.

AGIlity and REAction, it's incredibly hard to raise those base stats.

And how do you fundamentally improve your CHArisma?

Just a thought.

While I agree with you that attributes can represent well, I have to disagree with your examples. People decide to change these fundamental qualities every day, and do.

Strength: People get stronger every day just by going to the gym. They measure themselves objectively by their ability to do more reps and lift increased weight. Training programs these days cover toning, bulking, core work, balance, yadda yadda. Honestly I can't think of a stat it should be easier to raise, given time. Better yet, the game gives us a rough yardstick for strength in terms of deadlift capacity. It's definitely got a bit of hero physics built in, but the objective measurement is there.

Body: Same as above. While the stat does represent pain resistance, I think we can all agree that limiting purchasing Body for want of an efficient pain-resistance training system is silly. It's also logical to argue that people who suffer through muscle-rending workouts are, in effect, training themselves to resist pain. Cardio work means their lung capacity is increased, and all sorts of studies support the idea that people in good physical shape fight off diseases better. They can always go on a strict diet and add in vitamin supplements for the health part.

Agility and Reaction: Easily increased by video games and playing sports. Occupational therapists use video games for just that sort of thing. Martial arts can also train both Reaction and Agility, as can gymnastics.

Charisma: Start taking better care of your appearance, read books on social interaction/sales/psychology, spend a lot of time in social situations getting to know the ins and outs of meeting people and growing relationships. Study cultural and racial etiquette so you know what not to do. Play poker and read books on bluffing to get better at lying. Everybody knows at least one person who isn't attractive at all that has loads of friends and dates. Personally I know several. There is an entire industry built around improving relationship building/networking/sales skills. Anyone who is in sales or sarges (same difference, I guess) will tell you that developing self confidence will get you about 50% of the way to persuading anyone.

Now, of course this sort of training only takes you so far. However, the system uses Aptitude to represent true raw talent. It's logical within the rules to say given time people can increase all of their attributes at least a little. It might take several years to earn that 5th point of Charisma, but if you put in the karma, the time, and the RP, it's yours.

As for the increased costs, I used to play a lot of WW so the cost doesn't bother me. It might make the pools a little smaller, but most of the threats in SR are using the rule, too.

If the BP costs aren't changed, then it rewards players for loading up on attributes at start and rounding out with skills later. Some games might like the image of starting Runners as talented but relatively untrained folk. Others might not enjoy the ramifications for character diversity. I would be one of the latter, simply because I want flexibility at chargen, and for me that means the rules need to not push me in a certain direction.

Kgen sidesteps that particular issue neatly. However, it will only increase the incentive to play races with large stat bonuses in Kgen. Even if they change it to make people pay for race, the costs will still out-weigh the benefits. Poor humans.

[InfinityzeN]

True 'dat. My only problem with KG is races are free.