I've been away from the forums for a while, and so missed out on all but the earliest discussion of SR4A. I got to thinking about how increased attribute costs would invalidate some formerly common build types (bio-adepts) and make others more powerful (full-body replacement). What do you think?

I never understood why attributes were more expensive than skills in the first place to be honest....

- J.

Because of the Skill + Attribute dice mechanic. You're only going to use a skill for one particular, fairly narrow set of tests. But most attributes factor into not only a whole bunch of skill tests per attribute, but also often factor into other areas of the games as well (Initiative, Boxes of Damage, How much armor you can wear, melee weapon damage, resistances, etc).

Pound for Pound, Attributes are simply worth more than Skills. A lot more.

Don't feel bad. I've been gone for about six months. Just got home internet again about a week ago and had to catch up. Suddenly, I'm like 4a? What the hell is that? Plus two(one?) other books I'd never heard of. I feel like a lost little boy. Plus, even worse, I just wasted most of my money paying for college, damnit, how am I supposed to buy important stuff like Shadowrun books if I keep wasting my money on useless stuff like college?

Attributes apply directly to tests for multiple skills, attribute-only tests, and secondary character traits like Initiative. Anybody with half a brain who has the option of raising an attribute vs. raising a skill when the cost is equal or better will raise the attribute. To encourage players away from making a bunch of Olympic athletes at CharGen, the cost of raising attributes is raised. You can still use augmentations et al., natch, and that'll be more attractive since attributes cost more.

Get a job, pay taxes, pay your mortgage/rent, buy your groceries, pay your utilities/bills. Then save the $0.02 left until you
can afford it.

or

Personally I'd just stop paying taxes and claim extraterritorality. Then you'll have 30% more money and dilpomatic immunity!

DumpShock - Fixing your economic problems, the Shadowrun Way!

he. I wish.

Attributes >value> Skills.

Now if only there was a Race that got a bonus to Agility and Charisma, they would be super point efficient.


BlueMax

Keep in mind what attributes really represent as well. It's much easier to focus your efforts on a particular task to improve skill, but to significantly improve all the multiple facets represented by a raw statistic takes tremendous effort.

STRength isn't just lifting weights: it's endurance (swimming), it's toning, and it's the simplest.

BODy is health, and bulk, and resilience and pain resistance.

AGIlity and REAction, it's incredibly hard to raise those base stats.

And how do you fundamentally improve your CHArisma?

Just a thought.

While there are more things that Attributes are more useful at, they already cost more than any single individual skill. Although they had cost less than a Skill Group, skills can be worth a lot more than Attributes in certain cases. For example, if you default, that 1st level of skill is worth the BP/karma of itself and that one point of Attribute. So if you had increased Agility from 5 to 6 with karma, you are shortchanging yourself that level of skill plus the karma from 5 to 6.

Yet despite this, previously you'd load up on Attributes before you add your skills with BPs and that is when it was only Attribute Rating x 3. You want to encourage Attribute loading at chargen? Is that your objective here? Now logically, you'd load up on Attributes and buy minimal skills at chargen and then ramp up the skills with karma.

Do it like The Sims do... stand in front of a mirror practicing speech

I don't understand how a higher cost of increasing Attributes is supposed to make a bio-adept less viable. If anything, higher Attribute costs will make getting muscle augmentation/toner even more tempting.

Agreed... though I don't see how it could be MORE tempting... I am already sold on the augments over the natural upgrades anyway...

Because their growth potential is significantly curtailed by increased costs. Paying for higher Magic (assuming you use the total magic =/ effective magic model) gets ruinously expensive over time. Say I get 2 Essence worth of mods and 6 Magic total at character creation; I'm effectively paying (5*5) + (6*5) = 25 + 30 = FIFTY-FIVE Karma in addition to nuyen costs for my 'ware, AND increasing the cost of any future Magic gain by a huge margin. Compare this to the 33 Karma (5*3 + 6*3) it cost previously.

Any thoughts on full-body replacement? It's always been one of my favorite archtypes, and the prospect of replacing 3 stats entirely really appeals to me. The biggest disadvantage I see there is visibility; you can't really hide someone like that, especially if they get bulk modifications for their limbs.

My point was that higher Attribute costs make it likelier that an adept will be tempted by the relatively cheap boost of bioware, rather than being a pure, unaugmented adept. Overall, higher costs to improve Attributes won't affect build point characters that much, since build points already encourage loading up on Attributes as much as possible, and getting them a bit lopsided (soft-maxing important ones, leaving others to be improved, more cheaply, later). For karmagen, Attributes being costlier will probably make dump stats more common again. Before, you could get what you wanted for your main Attributes, and 3's or 4's in the others. Now, 2's might be more common.


For full-body replacement, you are better off either as a jarhead, or an AI with an otomo body. The problem with cyberlimbs/torso/head is that they preclude a lot of bioware, and that they are very pricey, Essence-wise. Compared to someone with the optimal mix of cyberware and bioware, they are not as effective. Unless you really know what you're doing. Which is one of the reasons I stick with the biomods - they're lot more straightforward.

But at the same time, they also dropped the price of attributes and IP Improvement in terms of magic points, so doesn't it just come out in the wash?

For the record, I use Karmagen exclusively. I consider AI's to be unbalanced, and you can't make a jarhead starting character without a VERY lenient gamemaster. Besides, both of those are just riggers taken to the logical extreme. I don't like the flavor.


They increased the price of Combat Sense, which I tend to get a bunch of. The ones they made cheaper are mostly things which are better done with bioware, such as IP/Reaction enhancement and stat improvements.

[Edit:] What would you consider an optimal blend of bio and cyber?

They increased the cost of combat sense? That didn't make it to the errata. The slight decreases to the cost of improved Attribute and improved reflexes make a pure adept slightly more viable, but they still don't come close to what you can get with bioware. For an example - synaptic booster: 2, muscle augmentation: 2, muscle toner: 2, and two reflex recorders (of combat skills). Assuming your augmented Attributes don't go over your maximum, you still get 6.5 power points' worth of abilities at the cost of losing two Magic points.


The optimal mix of cyberware and bioware can vary. Point-wise, you are best off getting as close to 50-50 as you can due to how Essense costs are calculated (4 points of cyberware and 3.8 points of bioware costs 5.9 points of Essense, for example). This isn't always feasible on a starting character's budget. But both offer a lot of similar things, which makes it easier to split them. Do you get wired reflexes with bone density augmentation and orthoskin, or do you get bone lacing and dermal sheathing with a synaptic booster? But you can get a heady mix of Attribute boosts, damage soaking buffs, improved Reaction and multiple initiative passes, senseware, and other goodies.

Someone getting full limb replacements is spending an awful lot on a chassis. Can you do that, have enough left for some initiative boosting, and use the capacity, customization, and armor capacity of cyberlimbs to make a decent character? Someone like Tarantula could probably do that with a lot of fussing and tweaking, but as I said, it's a bit too complicated for my taste (or maybe it's just my unfamiliarity with that subset of the rules).

checks the errata document

My bad; I was working from (apparently faulty) memory. They really should have increased its cost, though.

Continuously get everyone you talk to shitfaced drunk. Granted it's not improving your charisma.... but it has the same effect!

Oh, I see what you did there...


Personally I've never liked the BP system since it does lead to such lopsided characters. Using a flat cost system for your character creation and a progressive cost system for in game improvements means you'll come out behind without mix-maxing. I know this is common knowledge now so no more beating the dead horse.

I'm a firm believer in the Karma build system. Actually, is you do the math with the new attribute cost the Karma Gen system is even more balanced to (highly optimized) BP builds then before.

Before, a human buying a attribute from 1 to 5 cost 42 karma (5.6%) compared to 40 BP (10%). Now it cost 70 karma (9.3~%) compared to 40BP (10%). This makes the Karma Gen system roughly equal for soft maxing attributes, while cheaper for lower levels.

The biggest advantage in the Karma Gen system for me though is that if a character ignores a attribute/skill in the begining, it will cost him the same in game as it would have in generation to get it up. Compared to BP where anything less than a soft max will actually be cheaper to increase in game, leading to stupid crazy builds you see today.

I actually lost a character playing Vampire back in the 90s (another flat cost creation/progressive cost in game system) and the ST let me add in 75% of my dead characters experience to keep me somewhere in the groups power range. I started building him like normal, then realized I had karm... XP to burn. I min-maxed him with the base points (dump stats everywhere!) and used the kar... XP to get them up to 2 or 3. Character ended up having better stats and skills then the dead one by far, with only a couple levels of disciplines lost. ST said "Guess I got a use a lower % of XP next time" and let me play him, but only because I build a good background which I let him read before showing him the character sheet.

I just checked my copy of the PDF (which is theoretically the print version) and it shows .5/level which is what I paid when I built Kerenshara in the original SR4.

While I agree with you that attributes can represent well, I have to disagree with your examples. People decide to change these fundamental qualities every day, and do.

Strength: People get stronger every day just by going to the gym. They measure themselves objectively by their ability to do more reps and lift increased weight. Training programs these days cover toning, bulking, core work, balance, yadda yadda. Honestly I can't think of a stat it should be easier to raise, given time. Better yet, the game gives us a rough yardstick for strength in terms of deadlift capacity. It's definitely got a bit of hero physics built in, but the objective measurement is there.

Body: Same as above. While the stat does represent pain resistance, I think we can all agree that limiting purchasing Body for want of an efficient pain-resistance training system is silly. It's also logical to argue that people who suffer through muscle-rending workouts are, in effect, training themselves to resist pain. Cardio work means their lung capacity is increased, and all sorts of studies support the idea that people in good physical shape fight off diseases better. They can always go on a strict diet and add in vitamin supplements for the health part.

Agility and Reaction: Easily increased by video games and playing sports. Occupational therapists use video games for just that sort of thing. Martial arts can also train both Reaction and Agility, as can gymnastics.

Charisma: Start taking better care of your appearance, read books on social interaction/sales/psychology, spend a lot of time in social situations getting to know the ins and outs of meeting people and growing relationships. Study cultural and racial etiquette so you know what not to do. Play poker and read books on bluffing to get better at lying. Everybody knows at least one person who isn't attractive at all that has loads of friends and dates. Personally I know several. There is an entire industry built around improving relationship building/networking/sales skills. Anyone who is in sales or sarges (same difference, I guess) will tell you that developing self confidence will get you about 50% of the way to persuading anyone.

Now, of course this sort of training only takes you so far. However, the system uses Aptitude to represent true raw talent. It's logical within the rules to say given time people can increase all of their attributes at least a little. It might take several years to earn that 5th point of Charisma, but if you put in the karma, the time, and the RP, it's yours.

As for the increased costs, I used to play a lot of WW so the cost doesn't bother me. It might make the pools a little smaller, but most of the threats in SR are using the rule, too.

If the BP costs aren't changed, then it rewards players for loading up on attributes at start and rounding out with skills later. Some games might like the image of starting Runners as talented but relatively untrained folk. Others might not enjoy the ramifications for character diversity. I would be one of the latter, simply because I want flexibility at chargen, and for me that means the rules need to not push me in a certain direction.

Kgen sidesteps that particular issue neatly. However, it will only increase the incentive to play races with large stat bonuses in Kgen. Even if they change it to make people pay for race, the costs will still out-weigh the benefits. Poor humans.

True 'dat. My only problem with KG is races are free.

People have problems with this because SR4 made the (in my opinion anyway) colossal mistake of making Attributes equal to Skill when it comes to most tests. Unless you make the cost of Attributes grotesque, they're always going to be a better investment than Skill, despite them being exactly equal in most tests. Even at Rank*5, they're still a better investment than even a Skill Group... and it's damn near impossible to truly balance it due to the vast difference in the usefulness of various skills. Pistols vs. Artisan, for instance.

Previous editions had their flaws, too, but the philosophy was sound. Attributes should be different than Skills. If I had a hand in designing the system, I'd have balanced it around the concept of Attributes providing the random element in the test (ie, the number of dice) and Skill providing a solid modifier due to it actually being your skill rather than your natural aptitude... which is what Attributes essentially represent in these tests. In this scenario, Skills would be more coveted despite covering a smaller group of tests. You could probably even have both of them cost about the same during character creation and advancement due to that fact; Attributes may apply to more tests, but Skill has a bigger impact on your level of success.

Heck, it even has the benefit of giving characters with a Skill of 1 a nice advantage over those without any Skill at all. Whereas in the current system that's just not the case most of the time. A dice pool of 10 is a dice pool of 10 whether you have Attribute 5/Skill 5 or Attribute 9/Skill 1. Which is pretty darn goofy in my book.

Unfortunately with the way SR4 is set up, there's no real way to create a set of house rules using that kind of mentality without completely reworking everything else. Which is a major disappointment.

EDIT: To get back on track somewhat, I do think you're mistaking "archetypes" with "min-max concepts." A bio-adept isn't an archetype; it's a term that describes something you can do with the rules. Archetypes include things like bodyguards, paranormal hunters and street shaman. What they do rather than how they do it.

Sure they do, that's why you can upgrade them at all.


For all of these, I agree in principle but you misunderstand I think just how difficult it is to achieve a meaningful increase in the stat, especially as you approach higher leves. If you are a 2, simply exercising and "getting in shape" will lead to a relatively quick progress to level 3 - Average. But to go to progressively higher levels, look at the amount of time it takes serious athletes to get themselves signifcantly better. We're talking YEARS of work to go from a 5 - Superior to a 6 - Maximum Unaugmented. We're talkng about the difference between an Olympic competitor and a World-class champion. That kind of improvement takes literally YEARS of grueling physical training. If anything, subjectively, the costs are still low. The activities that help may be "easy" but the amount of effort required and time needed are daunting.


This one is harder. Sure, some of what you're saying will help you pull a sub-par score to normal or even help teach some of the tricks and techniques to get you to an above average score. But getting to 5 or 6? That's a fundamental shift in outlook, not just behavior. A shocking percentage of our communications is entirely non-verbal, and bear also in mind the one "hidden" aspect of CHArisma in the 6^th World: force of personality vis-à-vis Magic especially. Those two later items are VERY hard to improve.

The other mental stats are more easily increased in terms of activities than CHArisma, but again, it's a serious and devoted effort to excell if you're going for levels beyond the ordinary.


No argument on this point. I want to be clear: I have no problem with increasing the base stats. I specifically meant to state that compared to imrpoving a single skill (or linke group of skills), raising a core attribute SHOULD be much harder to achieve both objectively (Karma and time) and subjectively (role play and development).


Ok, in reverse order, the increased costs only make it HARDER to take a high-stat race if you don't max things out at CharGen; The price to max out just went through the roof. This is something I have said before, though I don't know it it's been in a discussion specifically with you: I don't buy the stat at CharGen; I buy the description. Sure, an Orc starts with a minimum BODy stat and STRength stat that look like high human normal, but to anybody looking at them, it's going to be clear that they're the "runt of the litter", and will react accordingly. More to the point, the character should react accordingly. So unless I have a REASON (conceptually) for a stat to below average, I automatically buy all stats to base+2 for whatever race I am actually playing. If I have a REASON to go higher on a stat, THEN I buy it up. Do you have to do that? No, of course not. But if you really look at the character AS COMPARED TO THEIR METATYPE, they are going to be weak if you don't buy up. Put another way: A starting elf has "average" human CHArisma. But if you don't buy that up to 5, when people interact with you, though you won't be overtly penalized, there's going to be the "wow, that was a homely/unpleasant/rough elf" reaction from those who are accustomed to dealing with most elves being a 5.

Does that part make sense?

As to the first part, yes, it does reward "attribute" loading, but then, the system ALWAYS rewarded/encouraged that if we're willing to be honest about it. This just pushes the envelope a bit. So, either you're a "Talented Amateur" (which actually makes a drekload of sense, since you phrased it like that) or a relatively pedestrian but highly experienced professional with lots more time in grade who suddenly has to start significantly working to improve their level of basic performance on a new field.

I don't understand your comment in reference to flexibility at CharGen or getting forced into a particular path. I need a bit more to work with before I can discuss that part meaningfully with you. But we use KarmaGen, where there IS no more "front loading" because the prices are always the same.

Actually exactly the opposite... the increase in cost means.

1. buy a metatype... humans suck. (they get not only freebie attribute ranks, but also enhanced ratings caps!! on a bargain deal from points NOT LIMITED BY HALF BP/karma)
2. Make damn well sure you spend half the remaining on attributes... Not doing so will cost you bigtime in karma later.

This was the reason to me that karmagen was such a disappointment. I'm fully behind the cost change, but the attribute bits were completely FUBAR (F'ed Up Beyond All Repair).


Since costs are fixed at chargen (BP)... there's even MORE incentive to make olympians and save on karma later w/ narrowly focused professional + skills.

The system actively discourages putting 1 or 2 points in tihs skill and another 1 or 2 in this one. It generally points you at buying either 1 rank (because defaulting is bad) or 4(6).



Funkenstein:
I don't see how that works in the least w/o variable target numbers. And that's one thing I'm glad that SR4 got rid of.

Quite frankly, even there, there's been limited discussion. I tried to start a thread maybe about a month ago about the game effects of changing skills to go from 1-12, or simply counting skill ranks double (and halving the contribution from attributes).
EG: agility 4, pistol 4 == 2 dice attribute + 8 dice skill.

It got next to zero interest... so it dropped off.

Any changes of this nature are very deep into the system, and affect a lot of things, and the rule of unintended consequences has a lot of room to wreak havoc.
EG: attribute dice are a different color than skill dice. Attribute dice have a TN of 6, while skill dice have a TN of 3. (if you're assuming a 6/6 split the number of net hits stays actually close to the same as 12 dice on TN4, but there are a lot of implications).

Untrue (that no house rules can fix the problem). As I went into great detail elsewhere, using all the optional caps suggested in main text or sidebar together bring the focus squarely back onto skill and also serve to significantly discourage game-start over-focus to the point the system as designed starts to break under the weight of your Dice Pool.

Specifically, I'll lay them out again (and these only apply to Skill Tests, not Damage Resistance or Drain or the like):

1^st: Hits limited to 2x Skill (or 1 when defaulting), like Spellcasting Hits are limitd to spell Force, and it's Hits, not Net Hits. This ensures that overly talented people can NOT achieve wildly powerful results (without the use of EDGe, which tosses all limits out the lock anyhow, but is a limited resource). So Mr. 7 Stat with 1 Skill is capped at 2 Hits, while the 3 Stat 3 Skill can go to 6 Hits; andreember how quickly modifiers can contribute to those rolls, so it's NOT just Skill + Stat.
2^nd: Limit DP modifiers to no more than [Skill + Stat]. There is a limit to how much you can take advantage of what's there for you without sufficient native ability. If you lack that ability, leave it to the Pilot program, which can probably do it better than you in that case.
3^rd: Limit total DP to no more than 20 after all modifiers. The system's tables top out at 5 Hits in every category. At 20 DP you can BUY 5 hits if the GM is allowing it. There is literally NO POINT in having a higher DP than this, and to do so begins to push things into an upward spiral that just winds up getting silly, whereupon a lot of people say "see! It's broken now!" Well, no drek Sherlock. If you stand there and bend it till it snaps, of course it's going to be broken when you're done.

My current group is playing with just the first rule, and we haven't yet run across a single dice roll that would require the other two because of it, but we're implementing them immediately. (Why push for a higher DP when you can only keep 2 Hits anyway?)

It's amazing. Seriously. We're in line with expectations in the modules. Security guards aren't a total pushover, reaction teams are scarry motherslotters, and nearly every basic threat in the book is a challenge of some kind. Yes, we still usualy come out on top, but if we didn't, it wouldn't be fun. The trick it to keep it CHALLENGING, and we haven't seen a situation yet that we just waved at and greased on out; When we blow it out, it's because of lucky rolls, not simply squishing the opposition casually. (We just made it LOOK easy, as they say.)

Many people had to rebuild after the GM first really explained the cap and what it meant and then ran a little mock combat to demonstrate. And now, a couple people have one stat maxed (their focus) but mostly we see 4's and 3's across the board. As to skills, out of 5 full-time and 1 part-time PC we have exactly 0 characters with any skills at 6+, 3 characters with a single 5 (2 gotten through a Quality or 'ware/adept ability), and most core skills at 4 with a huge variety of secondary skills at 3 and 2. What does that make us, according to the descriptions in the Skills section? Realistic (no laughter, please) lower-level 'runners with room to grow but enough capability in our primary areas of expertise to usually beat the opposition. We fit in with the fluff, and usually get by more with creative uses of what we DO have than the force of our gynormous Dice Pools.

Maybe you don't think it would work for your group, but trust me: these people at our table are amongst the most gifted Min-Maxers and Mega-Munchkins in the world at what they do (objective, not subjetive, based on some organizations they belong to and participate in). If a simple cap to enforce how important Skill is over raw Talent (Stat), then I think there's a good chance it can work for your group, too. Our GM is absolutely floored at the diferece in emphasis and behavior this has made, compared to older campaigns where he didn't use that cap (or even our pre-cap builds for this campaign). Take a look at it for what it is; It's not a limit on how good you can be or become, it's a limit on how far raw talent can carry you. With that in place, it's amazing how quickly the one serious weakness of SR4 that Doc F quite accurately pointed out fades away into the backgroun and the game move on smoothly.

@Kerenshara: I really, really like that. I've seen (and usually liked) similar fixes in the past, but I think the rules you stated are the best of their kind that I've seen.

There is still a reason to have more than a 20 DP unmodified: because you still want those 5 hits when modifiers slap you upside the head. SR is modifier heaven, and having your "badass" 20 DP reduced to "wimp" 7 DP when you need it most will suck nice and hard.

Now that I think about it, there is one more. The new fangled extended test rules with the cumulative -1 definitely encourages maxing certain DP's. If you enforce the 20 DP cap, any dice above it serve as a cushion for that modifier.

Other than that, you are right on target. I think the rule is great so long as everything in the world is limited in a similar fashion.

1) Capping hits simply changes the onus to whatever you use to cap the hits with. In this case, skill. I get that the intent of the rule is to shift emphasis to skills. But you have to consider that skills are now more easily improved and it does not address the fact that at the start, your PC has no karma, hence not likely to be on the radar, with survival(as dictated largely by Attributes) more important than being that damn good. In fact, it does not address the likelihood that anyone with low skill is not going to have it as his main schtick - for example, a Cha 1 and Etiquette 1 PC is not likely to be looking to talk down the Don, he is more likely to simply prevent himself from being screwed over socially - 1+1+6(mods from equipments/powers) = 8, to buy 2 hits, limited to 2 hits(hey look at that, just right)
2) Limiting DP mods to Skill+Stat is similar to limiting dice pool to 2*(Skill+Stat). It does not address that at the upper limits, you are still looking at a boatload of dice.
3) Limiting DP to 20 after mods simply means that people would be talking trash to the Don, or sneaking around with Day-Glo Orange jumpsuits with a boom-box blaring on their shoulder. After a certain point, your PCs would be looking for negative mods, because their positive mods are pushing them over the limit. It also means that no matter how good you are, no matter how powerful you become, some hotshot can have a decent chance of beating you. Remember that if you want to use some of the really powerful protagonists NPCs like Harlequin - they too should have a limit of 20 dice, it is only fair right?

Why would you ever pit your characters agains Harlequin?

He's a mime (and an annoying wangsty Mary Sue GMPC). Why wouldn't you attack him on sight?


toturi has a point, though. If you let a PC's mods and stats count for nothing beyond a certain point, then that same arbitrary cutoff needs to apply to the NPCs.

If you have a problem with the attributes being more important than skills then use the optional rules given under page 69 (p75 sr4a) for limiting the number of hits based upon the skill.

That's one of the nice things about karma gen, it makes humans more appealing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those racial modifiers apply prior to calculating the cost of improving the attribute.

So an elf costs 5*25 (135) Karma to improve charisma 5 points. That human costs 5*20 (100) Karma to improve charisma 5 points. Using BP, they both cost 65 BP. There's a very low incentive to playing a human in BP, and it is basically edge and the BP you save by not choosing another metatype.

I think it brings the races more in balance.

Unless there has been a published errata, race is still free in karma gen. If anything, it aggravates the race issue and makes humans less appealing.

It might be because everything was overpowered in karmagen, but humans were more appealing to me. Mainly because when you are stuck with a hard cap of 200 to spend on Attributes, a metahuman's Attribute bonuses are a lot more noticeable. Karmagen balances out, because you have a human with a 6, and a mix of 4's and 5's, compared to, say, an elf who has a higher Agility and Charisma, but correspondingly less to spend on active skills. Sure, if you only take the minimums for your Attributes with bonuses, you get more points than a human, but Attributes are important and you have plenty of points to spend, so you're shooting yourself in the foot to get those "free" points. As much grief as karmagen gets over free metatype, humans are still a lot more viable under it than they are with build points.

There is a cap for Attributes for karmagen and worse it is tied to the racial cost. So the more expensive the race, not only do you get it for free, you could spend more on your Attributes as well. You do not need to get the absolute minimums for those Attributes with bonuses, all you need to do is to buy them up to a functional rating. For example, Elves get +2 to Charisma and +1 Agility, that means a minimum of Cha 3 and that is already a functional Attribute rating and for Agility buy the Agility to, say, 4 (again functional).

But an Elf with a 3 Charisma is just as looked down upon by other Elves as uncouth, as a Troll with a 5 Strength is looked down upon by other Trolls as being whimpy... They are the "runts" of the racial pool at that point...

It is utterly astounding how many times this discussion
about racial balance and karmagen has been trotted out.
In internet years this mutt of a 'debate' (debacle?)
is long in the tooth and ready to be shot before
being rolled into the Soylent Processing Vat.

Do dwarves with Willpower 6 look down on dwarves with Willpower 2? Do humans with Edge 6 look down on other humans with Edge 2? Is there a way for any given character to "know" the stats of other characters? Unless said Attribute put to the test, it is difficult to know if any character is smarter/stronger/tougher than another character. Even then, the vagaries of dice rolls has to be factored in. That tough guy could simply be having a bad day with his Body.

Jeez, Toturi, you might be a more gracious winner than I am, but when I beat someone at a physical competition (particularly someone I don't really like), my reaction is less "looks like you're having a bad day" and more "WHO'S MAH BITCH? YOU MAH BITCH!"

Then again, they tend not to pull guns/knives/fireballs on me in this neighborhood.

Probably...
Do most people look down on the bum in the street?

The point is, once that stat is put to the test, they are definitely below average for the relevant metatype, and this will become obvious over time... and if the Dark Dystopian future is anything like TODAY (not saying that it is right, of course), then yes, those types of people (low stat) will indeed be looked down upon, regardless of metatype...

Now, granted, the human will probably not be able to reliably tell that the elf's charisma is below average, because the low end elf is still at least comparable with teh average human Charisma (assuming 3 is average of course)... but within each metatype, it will happen...

Have you ever watched kids on the playground pick apart the weaker children, or make fun of the child who is not as smart?... happens all the time in our society, what makes you think that it will be any different in the dystopian future?

Only if the kid actually feels the hit or cannot take making fun of. The weaker kid needs to be truly weaker in nearly all sense of the word. Ever see the small but agile kid dodge outta the way or the skinny but tough kid stand there and take it? Ever see the high Willpower or Charisma kid maintain his composure when made fun of by the smarter kids? The bullies (physical or intellectual) gain some measure of respect for them. Happens all the time in our societies, what makes you think it will be any different in the dystopian future?

Exactly. That ork with Strength: 3 who also has muscle augmentation: 2, 3 levels of martial arts, bone lacing, and hardliner gloves, along with augmented reflexes, won't have that many problems with other orks "disrespecting" him. Since it is impossible to have good Attributes across the board, there will be dump stats.

Karmagen made it easier to have more realistic Attributes (good at what you needed without having to be weak in other areas), but they're going to "fix" it now. The tentative fix (keep it at 750 Karma) bones awakened characters and technomancers completely, since special Attributes are included in that 375 Karma limit to Attributes. Which, with the new costs for improving Attributes, makes it actually harder to create things such as adepts in Karmagen, as opposed to build points.

Is that not what I was saying?

The weaker will be picked upon and the stronger will survive...

Next...

No. That is not what I was saying. Unless the weaker is so totally outclassed, he should have something that is better than the person bullying him, and he can use that edge to his advantage. So unless troll with low Str has all his other stats that are equal or worse than the high Str troll, the low Str troll is not in any danger of being "looked down" simply because he has low Str. My question (and the point) was whether most people would look down on another simply because that guy has one lower stat than themselves.

I have low BOD, low-medium STR, high AGI, high INT, low CHA and medium WIL. Trust me, being smart and fast isn't enough to keep from being looked down upon. Enough to avoid physical violence, perhaps, but not enough to avoid problems of that sort.

If someone wants to look down on someone else, he can find a multitude of ways to do so. It doesn't need to be because someone is fat, slow or stupid.