Seattle 2072 PDF + Print Pre Order, Welcome Home Options

[Larsine]

Are you kidding me? I've gotten more use outta Sprawl Sites than almost any other single non-core book. Between a slew of adventure hooks, some quickie maps, and all the other goodies in there, it's a GM's Toolbox just waiting to be opened (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now, Sprawl Maps are moderately less useful. And DMZ even moreso. Followed by most 1st and 2nd ed location books.

Bull

All of the above are very usefull, compared to High Tech & Low Life: The Art of Shadowrun.

Lars

[RunnerPaul]

All of the above are very usefull, compared to High Tech & Low Life: The Art of Shadowrun.

Which is damn useful when you want to introduce the setting to a new player who has a highly "visual" learning sytle without hauling out every book to show off the cover. Or if you want a coffeetable artbook that reflects your hobby in addition to looking pretty.

[Adam]

While the tables of adventure hooks aren't so bad, There's nothing on there especially imaginative, nothing that a GM couldn't have easily come up with on their own.

I think you're doing Sprawl Sites a disservice, Paul. It was one of the early SR books, and one of the first that I bought, and at the time I thought it was a goldmine ... not just for things to use in game, but for illustrating how different parts of the Sixth World worked. It provided a ton of jumping-off points to fuel the imagination.

It's a 1989-style supplement, not a 2009-style supplement. Nowadays, something Sprawl Sites-like would likely be done PDF only, and cut into more bite-sized pieces.

[BlueMax]

I think you're doing Sprawl Sites a disservice, Paul. It was one of the early SR books, and one of the first that I bought, and at the time I thought it was a goldmine ... not just for things to use in game, but for illustrating how different parts of the Sixth World worked. It provided a ton of jumping-off points to fuel the imagination.

It's a 1989-style supplement, not a 2009-style supplement. Nowadays, something Sprawl Sites-like would likely be done PDF only, and cut into more bite-sized pieces.

This is about the Cutting not the lack of dead tree.
Which is a damn shame. So many Dumpshockers like myself list Sprawl Sites as useful, if only for the maps. Why change a winning formula?

BlueMax

[Adam]

I think you're misunderstanding me. First off, there is no "Sprawl Sites 2072" on the horizon. I'm speaking purely theoretical here. But, I think in 2009, if we were to release something similar, it would be more focused than Sprawl Sites originally was, and it would probably be released electronically.

For example, Sprawl Sites: Gang Life would have a few maps of dive bars, lousy chop shops, along with a bunch of plot hooks for gangs, and then some NPC gangers.

Sprawl Sites: Upper Crust would have maps of nice restaurants, giant hotel suites, relevant plot hooks, and then a bunch of NPCs -- the Corporate Suit, the Bodyguard, The Socialite, ec.

[Bull]

@Paul: I played in and ran a lot of Shadowrun games, and after a while, you start to have trouble coming up with any good, original hooks. Sprawl Sites was nice for those nights when I didn't have anything solid. I could pull a couple random run ideas, play around with them and usually come up with something for a nice one or two night game session. (I did the same thinga couple times with the Shadowrun Card Game. Pick a random Objective card, pull a few random challenges, and viola! I could throw together a basic run in no time flat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

I'm not saying you build a whole campaign this way, but back in the day when we were playing 3+ times a week, it was a serious time saver.

And as for what Adam's been saying about PDF releases, yeah... These days, that's probably the better route to go. THat's actually likely to be a couple things we try to do with the new magazine... Do up some basic, simple locations, NPCs, maybe the occasional set of adventure hooks. These aren't tools a GM should rely on for every game, but they're little things to help make their job a little easier on occasion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RunnerPaul]

I think you're doing Sprawl Sites a disservice, Paul. It was one of the early SR books, and one of the first that I bought, and at the time I thought it was a goldmine

I'm well aware of when the thing was released, and when I started with Shadowrun in the summer of 1990, I honestly felt, even back then, that it was the least useful of the books available out at that time. Maybe it's because I was coming to Shadowrun with an already strong grounding in how cyberpunk settings had been depicted in other media, but I didn't find it useful at all for learning how the sixth world was supposed to work. Couple that with maps that were actively unhelpful, and you get the basis for my opinion. I'm genuinely surprised that anyone held the book in high opinion, because of the two or three different SR groups I ran with in the early 90s, the other players' experiences mirrored my own. As always, YMMV.

[Bull]

As always, YMMV.

Indeed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's ok Paul, we don't think any less of you, even if your opinion is wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

<grin>

Anyways, umm, back on topic... Seattle 2072... Yay! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

I just had a chance to look over the PDF and it's very solid, glad to have a hard copy coming in the mail soon. I especially enjoyed the overview of the Seattle gangs, which were always very prominent in the fiction and source material.

On a somewhat unrelated note, anyone having a problem with their PDF for Elicpse Phase? I'm getting a corrupted data error. (My work comp is using an older version of acrobat, if that is at all related, works fine for all the SR PDFs)

[Adam]

I've had a couple reports that one page of Eclipse Phase returns that error, but only in some programs, and not even every time the person opens the document. Doesn't happen on any of my machines. Exact info as to what OS/reader you're using, and the exact symptoms, would be appreciated -- feel free to PM me about it so we don't clutter this thread.

[ShimmerGeek]

Sorry, this is probably a silly question, but - what is the difference between the limited edition and the normal edition?


Edit: Whoops, sorry, misread the thread title - it is an even sillier question now! My apologies.

[BishopMcQ]

To quote Adam:

Yes, there's a limited edition; no word on street dates; we haven't announced the final specifications of the limited edition.

ORIGINAL POST

The general supposition, take it as you will, is that the LE will be a leather bound book, with foiled edges and numbered XX of YYYY. None of this is confirmed, but rather draws on previous limited editions for experience.

[Cardul]

I am sad at the omissions of The Jump House, Little Chiba, and a few other places from the old Sega game..
Also, I noticed that you did not list The Hospice in either Barrens, despite being a major part of one of the
more recent novels(I want to say Aftershocks?).

[Cardul]

To quote Adam:
ORIGINAL POST

The general supposition, take it as you will, is that the LE will be a leather bound book, with foiled edges and numbered XX of YYYY. None of this is confirmed, but rather draws on previous limited editions for experience.

They also said somewhere(I wish I could find it..if it was a comment on the Official Blog site, or somewhere here) that,
when they had the cover, there would be a picture of it up. As of yet, then, they have not even decided on the cover of the limited edition.

[Warlordtheft]

Are you kidding me? I've gotten more use outta Sprawl Sites than almost any other single non-core book. Between a slew of adventure hooks, some quickie maps, and all the other goodies in there, it's a GM's Toolbox just waiting to be opened (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now, Sprawl Maps are moderately less useful. And DMZ even moreso. Followed by most 1st and 2nd ed location books.

Bull

+1 on the Sprawl Sites-CGL should do an update on it.

Sprawl Maps-was kind of cool. I've used them more than a couple of times as easy to use generic maps.

DMZ was a seperate game-and I lost my copy after a move or two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) but I think the main thing out of DMZ was the pieces and the maps. THough just like sprawl maps it was good to use once or twice.

[Malachi]

I am sad at the omissions of The Jump House, Little Chiba, and a few other places from the old Sega game..
Also, I noticed that you did not list The Hospice in either Barrens, despite being a major part of one of the
more recent novels(I want to say Aftershocks?).

I think the "official stance" is that novels are not cannon.

[Adam]

I think the "official stance" is that novels are not cannon.

Novels are canon. However, in cases that -- for whatever reason -- there are things that slip into the novels that contradict other material, the other material usually takes precedent.

[Fuchs]

Novels are canon. However, in cases that -- for whatever reason -- there are things that slip into the novels that contradict other material, the other material usually takes precedent.

If novels are canon then that opens a big can of worms. I just have to point to the awful first german novels to show why it's bad to treat novels as canon just from a continuity point of view.

And a loook at the Forgottne Realms should show why novels being treated as canon is bad from a setting point of view as well.

I would ask you honestly to reconsider this stance, or at least make sure no "world shaking" events are used for novels.

[Bull]

If novels are canon then that opens a big can of worms. I just have to point to the awful first german novels to show why it's bad to treat novels as canon just from a continuity point of view.

And a loook at the Forgottne Realms should show why novels being treated as canon is bad from a setting point of view as well.

I would ask you honestly to reconsider this stance, or at least make sure no "world shaking" events are used for novels.

Well, basically, it's up to CGL to police their Book Authors. FASA did that reasonably well, to a point (Stackpoles stuff was mostly written before SR1 was even released, and I suspect Wolf was based in part on some very early Adept concepts that didn't make it into the Grimoire, and there are a few things in later books, such as the Goblinized Dwarf, that just slipped through the cracks).

The German stuff, from what I understand, is incredibly hit and miss,and was very dependant on who was involved at the time. FASA never considered the German language material (or any foreign language original material) Canon since it never really went through a true approval process. I know that when FanPro took over, a lot of German Material was worked into Canon, and most German material was then considered Canon. I have no clue what CGL's stance is.

However, I'd disagree about "World Shaking Events" being part of the novels. I actually think this is the best place for certain ones, since the novels allow themselves to a narrative fiction that sourcebooks can't quite adhere to. And I'd prefer world shaking plots stay the hell out of Modules or campaign books like Survival of the Fittest or Brainscan. Burning Bright, the Dragonheart Trilogy, and that one book with Aina, I think, and the horrors and stuff. All of those were world shaking, to a degree, and they all were stories that I don't think could have been told well in sourcebooks or adventures.

Personally a mix is your best bet. Burning Bright and the Dragon Heart Trilogy were both tied to products and storylines that the players could then be involved with. Bug City, the election, the will. Whether you liked the actual story itself or not, I think it worked very well within the context of what it was trying to accomplish. And I'd love to see more of that on rare occasions from the novel line once it starts back up.

However, I do definately think that for every world shaking novel, you need at least 5 or 6 "normal" novels. At least. Those should be rare, and not the norm, just because Shadowrun doesn't need earthsaking every year. It's best to do something big, and then play out the fallout. Then hit em again once it's calmed down.

Bull

[Cardul]

However, I do definately think that for every world shaking novel, you need at least 5 or 6 "normal" novels. At least. Those should be rare, and not the norm, just because Shadowrun doesn't need earthsaking every year. It's best to do something big, and then play out the fallout. Then hit em again once it's calmed down.

Bull

I agree with this..but, at the same time, I am really confused on the novels during WizKids...they seemed to have
issues, in that they did not really feature AR, or really much of of the real feel of SR(at least, the first 3, the second, non-linked 3 were actually pretty darned good..). The initial three, actually, seemed alot more like "D&d Modern, with some tech! Woo!" and the characters were rather weak.

It is kind of sad, actually, that traits to explain stuff in the WK novels got put in(Latent Awakening,Family Name, etc),
but places like The Hospice got left out. Heck, it was these novels that were teh first time I had ever heard of Cross Applied Technologies, a AAA Corp that came into being, then went away pretty much at the change from 3rd edition to 4th edition. In fact, it felt like there were plans for it in the WK novels, but nothing ever came of them.

It really makes me wish WK had not canceled the novels when they canceled their game, because, it was nice getting theoretically canon fiction again....At least, from now on, all the sourceboosk are going to have good sized pieces of fiction. SR4A and Seattle 2072 are great for the sheer amounts of fiction in them, great for helping new players get a feel for the universe, and so, obviously, this is meant as a change in how they are doing things to make up for the lack of Holostreets.

[Fuchs]

Well, basically, it's up to CGL to police their Book Authors. FASA did that reasonably well, to a point (Stackpoles stuff was mostly written before SR1 was even released, and I suspect Wolf was based in part on some very early Adept concepts that didn't make it into the Grimoire, and there are a few things in later books, such as the Goblinized Dwarf, that just slipped through the cracks).

The German stuff, from what I understand, is incredibly hit and miss,and was very dependant on who was involved at the time. FASA never considered the German language material (or any foreign language original material) Canon since it never really went through a true approval process. I know that when FanPro took over, a lot of German Material was worked into Canon, and most German material was then considered Canon. I have no clue what CGL's stance is.

However, I'd disagree about "World Shaking Events" being part of the novels. I actually think this is the best place for certain ones, since the novels allow themselves to a narrative fiction that sourcebooks can't quite adhere to. And I'd prefer world shaking plots stay the hell out of Modules or campaign books like Survival of the Fittest or Brainscan. Burning Bright, the Dragonheart Trilogy, and that one book with Aina, I think, and the horrors and stuff. All of those were world shaking, to a degree, and they all were stories that I don't think could have been told well in sourcebooks or adventures.

Personally a mix is your best bet. Burning Bright and the Dragon Heart Trilogy were both tied to products and storylines that the players could then be involved with. Bug City, the election, the will. Whether you liked the actual story itself or not, I think it worked very well within the context of what it was trying to accomplish. And I'd love to see more of that on rare occasions from the novel line once it starts back up.

However, I do definately think that for every world shaking novel, you need at least 5 or 6 "normal" novels. At least. Those should be rare, and not the norm, just because Shadowrun doesn't need earthsaking every year. It's best to do something big, and then play out the fallout. Then hit em again once it's calmed down.

Bull

I'd prefer it if novels dealt with the fallout from World Shaking events and left the actual events up to the GMs to detail. Many players do not like to play second fiddle to the NPC heroes, and if you read a book about some runners being crucial in WS-plot X that means you either rewrite canon, or drop the plot, or have your group play "also along". It's also questionable if it's helping the game if the novels deal mainly with NPCs, and not characters the players can and are expected to play.

[Bull]

I agree with this..but, at the same time, I am really confused on the novels during WizKids...they seemed to have
issues, in that they did not really feature AR, or really much of of the real feel of SR(at least, the first 3, the second, non-linked 3 were actually pretty darned good..). The initial three, actually, seemed alot more like "D&d Modern, with some tech! Woo!" and the characters were rather weak.

It is kind of sad, actually, that traits to explain stuff in the WK novels got put in(Latent Awakening,Family Name, etc),
but places like The Hospice got left out. Heck, it was these novels that were teh first time I had ever heard of Cross Applied Technologies, a AAA Corp that came into being, then went away pretty much at the change from 3rd edition to 4th edition. In fact, it felt like there were plans for it in the WK novels, but nothing ever came of them.

It really makes me wish WK had not canceled the novels when they canceled their game, because, it was nice getting theoretically canon fiction again....At least, from now on, all the sourceboosk are going to have good sized pieces of fiction. SR4A and Seattle 2072 are great for the sheer amounts of fiction in them, great for helping new players get a feel for the universe, and so, obviously, this is meant as a change in how they are doing things to make up for the lack of Holostreets.

Well, the Wixzkids novels were done solely by Wizkids, while SR4 was being worked on about the same time by FanPro. Because of the lead time novels tend to have, the first bunch were written well before SR4 was being developed,m so the decision was to set them during SR3 instead and keep them there, at least for a while.

Also, the books were actually written for the SR Duels game. The Kellen Colt trilogy specifically was written to be a primer and introduction to the world of Shadowrun, so it starts off pretty simple, and pretty street level, though it escalates through the series. I know most of the characters featured in the books were all based on Duels figures, and there was a bit of baggage and stuff that came with the characters and the plotting. They were tie-in novels, and suffered from the same stuff all tie-in novels suffer.

ANyways, CGL has plans to publish their own novels in the near future, with Jason Hardy and Mel Odom on board, to name a couple. I'm especially excited about Mel Odom, as his Skater novels were among some of the best Shadowrun books at protraying a team that felt like they could have been PCs.

[Cardul]

ANyways, CGL has plans to publish their own novels in the near future, with Jason Hardy and Mel Odom on board, to name a couple. I'm especially excited about Mel Odom, as his Skater novels were among some of the best Shadowrun books at protraying a team that felt like they could have been PCs.

I am lumping these novels into the Duke Nukem Forever category, just like Holostreets...And, I am looking forward to SR's 30th, when we finally get all three novel lines, and Holostreets..

Until then, I am just REALLY happy that we are getting good quality fiction in sourcebooks now, and I hope that this keeps up to tide us over until we get the novels...

[SincereAgape]

Well, basically, it's up to CGL to police their Book Authors. FASA did that reasonably well, to a point (Stackpoles stuff was mostly written before SR1 was even released, and I suspect Wolf was based in part on some very early Adept concepts that didn't make it into the Grimoire, and there are a few things in later books, such as the Goblinized Dwarf, that just slipped through the cracks).

This is a great thread.

I spoke to Stackpole at a convention in North Jersey a few years ago and asked him about Wolf and Raven at his Q&A panel (Which brought a huge smile to his face).

The question was in reference to Wolf, and what exactly were his powers. In high school, my friends and I would try and figure out the statistics for our favorite novel characters. Wolf was the character that always caused a debate. Shapeshifter? Adapt? Shapeshifter? Adapt?

Two things.

1. Stackpole's writing was before First Generation even came out. He was brainstorming one night and called the director's at FASA, asking "Hey are you guys going to have wear wolves in this game because I would like to create a character who is a were wolf?

FASA: "Sure, go ahead. Put him in."

2. The name of Doctor Raven came to him at a Diner somewhere in New Mexico. He was eating an omlet and looked outside of the door. He saw a Cadilac pull up with a large raven emblem at the front of the car, above the hood. "Ah-ha! Raven! That's the character's name."

[BookWyrm]

Inspiration comes from the most unexpected sources. I also met Mr. Stackpole a few years back when he did a speaking panel at ICON (this was before Wolf and Raven were collected into the novel, and several of those short stories were printed in Challenge Magazine). Nice guy.