Restricted Gear, What makes sense? Options

[StealthSigma]

First meeting :
"And what can you do?"
"I'm FAST!"

No, seriously, that could actually work out nicely in the long run.

Fast, and it's freaking hard to tell he's fast. It's easily one of the most expensive pieces of gear that a runner could want, unless you're talking Beta/Delta grade on some of the other stuff. The problem is that you now only have 10,000 nuyen left to work with, without taking any of the qualities that give you more money.

[Ol' Scratch]

I don't bother with Restricted Gear. Or Availability at all during character creation. If a character's concept has him in possession of a high Availability item, such as a Former Military Sniper with a Ranger-Arms SM-4, he deserves to have it as much as that Street Shaman has a right to a Streetline Special. This applies to deltaware, too, which has its own associated restrictions (namely cost). So if you wanna blow 200,000 nuyen of your starting resources on a baseline delta cyberlimb, be my guest... as long as you can tell me why you have it and why it's vital to your character's concept (as opposed to stats).

[mmmkay]

type O system (30 BP)
restricted gear (5 BP)
deltagrade synaptic boosters (4.8 BP)

and this doesn't even use modified delta availability rules

edit: and essentially you're saving 3.2 BP, giving up other positive qualities until after chargen, and allowing yourself to spend a lot more money

EDIT: Please Ignore

[Ol' Scratch]

...giving up other positive qualities until after chargen, and allowing yourself to spend a lot more money

<twitches>

[LurkerOutThere]

One thing people tend to overlook is is physad can get thwe same bene's for synaptic booster 3 at chargen.

[StealthSigma]

One thing people tend to overlook is is physad can get thwe same bene's for synaptic booster 3 at chargen.

Overlook? Nope. Ignoring? Yep.

[Ravor]

Rasumichin well since I am feeling contary at the moment I'd agrue that the reason the Essence costs have largely stayed the same is that in the quest for SOTA, more and more meat keeps being cut away even as tech reduces the Essence costs. 2070s Wired Reflexes actually replaces much more than 2050s Wired does just to keep pace. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Except by that notion magical initiative boosters should be limited to 2 IP's as their not keeping pace with the increased sota of wired reflexes.

It's all a game balance equation, unfortunately it's a game balance equation that favors magic to the point where tech becomes pointless.

[Mäx]

type O system (30 BP)
restricted gear (5 BP)
deltagrade synaptic boosters (4.8 BP)

and this doesn't even use modified delta availability rules

edit: and essentially you're saving 3.2 BP, giving up other positive qualities until after chargen, and allowing yourself to spend a lot more money

How exactly are you getting synaptic boosters with 4,8 buildpoints, should that read 48 BP.
And type O system doesn't work for cultured bioware, only for basic.

[mmmkay]

thanks for calling me out

ignore that previous post

I assumed something without doing math or checking books or reading careful, essentially I was driving along dumpshock drunk backwards and with my eyes closed, oops

or both of these posts... can I delete them?

EDIT: I suppose you can ignore this post too.

[Rasumichin]

Rasumichin well since I am feeling contary at the moment I'd agrue that the reason the Essence costs have largely stayed the same is that in the quest for SOTA, more and more meat keeps being cut away even as tech reduces the Essence costs. 2070s Wired Reflexes actually replaces much more than 2050s Wired does just to keep pace. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

As has been pointed out, this would result in magical reflex enhancements becomming relatively slower.

Ok, one could argue that maybe those wizards and ninja type guys did their research and the magical SOTA has kept up with the technical one.

Which would, all in all, mean that unaugmented mundanes should be a whole lot more outclassed by people with reflex enhancements now than they where in 2050.

Taking a look at SR2's insane initiative rules, where you could stack all kinds of whacky things, had no hardcap for intitiative passes and could go 4 or 5 times before the grunts could barely twitch, this is clearly not the case.
Probably it has been retconned, who knows?

See where this leads?

Please, let's get back to some line of argument that is in some way conducive to the original topic.

[StealthSigma]

How exactly are you getting synaptic boosters with 4,8 buildpoints, should that read 48 BP.
And type O system doesn't work for cultured bioware, only for basic.

Well, he also said delta-grade Synaptic Boosters, which even rating one isn't affordable at chargen, unless all cultured bioware is considered delta-grade...

Delta Synaptic Boosters 1 : 800,000
Delta Synaptic Boosters 2 : 1,600,000
Delta Synaptic Boosters 3 : 2,400,000

[Mäx]

Well, he also said delta-grade Synaptic Boosters, which even rating one isn't affordable at chargen, unless all cultured bioware is considered delta-grade...

Delta Synaptic Boosters 1 : 800,000
Delta Synaptic Boosters 2 : 1,600,000
Delta Synaptic Boosters 3 : 2,400,000

That would be why he listed Type O System quality, but as I said that doesn't help with cultured ware.

[StealthSigma]

That would be why he listed Type O System quality, but as I said that doesn't help with cultured ware.

I thought Type O reduced the essence cost of augmentations, what does it really do?

[Rasumichin]

I thought Type O reduced the essence cost of augmentations, what does it really do?

It lets basic, unused, standard bioware count as deltaware because you happen to have the generic cell line upon which all non-cultured bioware is based.
Therefore, it's perfectly suited for you and only causes half of the usual Essence loss, just like delta ware.
As neural bioware isn't considered basic, but cultured bioware that is always grown specifically for a single customer, you do not get the discount on things such as Synaptic Boosters, Cerebral Boosters, Reflex Recorders, Trauma Dampers and so on if you have Type O System.

[Larme]

I don't bother with Restricted Gear. Or Availability at all during character creation. If a character's concept has him in possession of a high Availability item, such as a Former Military Sniper with a Ranger-Arms SM-4, he deserves to have it as much as that Street Shaman has a right to a Streetline Special. This applies to deltaware, too, which has its own associated restrictions (namely cost). So if you wanna blow 200,000 nuyen of your starting resources on a baseline delta cyberlimb, be my guest... as long as you can tell me why you have it and why it's vital to your character's concept (as opposed to stats).

I would just get rid of availability, if that's how you're going to do it. What you're doing is encouraging your characters to all have similar high powered backgrounds. They're going to be special forces this, ex-military that, intelligence agents... Basically, anything where you have to cut your hair short, salute, and not be colorful or exciting, because that's who gets training with the fanciest toys. What you're telling your players is that they can play a really interesting and fun gutter punk, they'll just be punished in terms of what gear they can start with. Since military types tend to lead to the blandest characters (and sometimes most useless characters because people who make them tend to want to take every skill group at 3, thus wasting all their BP without getting much out of it) I think encouraging them with crunch-based rewards is bad policy.

[StealthSigma]

It lets basic, unused, standard bioware count as deltaware because you happen to have the generic cell line upon which all non-cultured bioware is based.
Therefore, it's perfectly suited for you and only causes half of the usual Essence loss, just like delta ware.
As neural bioware isn't considered basic, but cultured bioware that is always grown specifically for a single customer, you do not get the discount on things such as Synaptic Boosters, Cerebral Boosters, Reflex Recorders, Trauma Dampers and so on if you have Type O System.

Ah, I didn't realize a 50% reduction in essence cost. So it's not true delta-ware. Does this benefit stack with the essence reductions from alpha/beta/delta? So that Type 0 Deltaware is 75% essence cost?

[Mäx]

Ah, I didn't realize a 50% reduction in essence cost. So it's not true delta-ware. Does this benefit stack with the essence reductions from alpha/beta/delta? So that Type 0 Deltaware is 75% essence cost?

That 50% reduction is becouse it makes standart/alpha grade basic bioware act as deltaware for you, so everythink over standart grade is just waste of money.

[Warlordtheft]

Remember this is Dumpshock, where I can declare that you've won the thread while at the very same time disagree with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Or if you're really tired of the conversation, you can change the topic!

So when a cybersam pixie dies, isn't the cyber still there?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)

[StealthSigma]

They're going to be special forces this, ex-military that, intelligence agents... Basically, anything where you have to cut your hair short, salute, and not be colorful or exciting, because that's who gets training with the fanciest toys. What you're telling your players is that they can play a really interesting and fun gutter punk, they'll just be punished in terms of what gear they can start with. Since military types tend to lead to the blandest characters (and sometimes most useless characters because people who make them tend to want to take every skill group at 3, thus wasting all their BP without getting much out of it) I think encouraging them with crunch-based rewards is bad policy.

Uhhh, since you describe intelligence agencies, and special forces as bland I take it that you think all intelligence agents are desk jockies that mull over data, and all special forces troops are just as bland and unthinking as "grunts" trained to be efficient killers. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Now you personally may not find those interesting, but here's an interesting article for you to read.

If anything, I would argue that the Ranger-Arms (that's the sniper rifle that can be broken into a suitcase, right?) is not a valid weapon to take from military service. Military snipers would not likely use such a weapon, or even have a need to use it. Such a sniper rifle is more suited to intelligence agencies that take out targets and they need to go to their shooting point in full view of other people. Military snipers are infiltration experts and are trained to get from point A to point B without being discovered. Between the sniper rifles listed in Arsenal and the main book, only two aren't available at chargen, and that's the Ranger-Arms and the Barrett.

[McAllister]

It lets basic, unused, standard bioware count as deltaware because you happen to have the generic cell line upon which all non-cultured bioware is based.
Therefore, it's perfectly suited for you and only causes half of the usual Essence loss, just like delta ware.
As neural bioware isn't considered basic, but cultured bioware that is always grown specifically for a single customer, you do not get the discount on things such as Synaptic Boosters, Cerebral Boosters, Reflex Recorders, Trauma Dampers and so on if you have Type O System.

Though exceptionally rare, a few lucky people in the world have completely non-allergenic “type O� cells, meaning that they can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of rejection. While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same). Their bodies are also filled with universally transplantable organs, so maybe they shouldn’t brag too much about this talent.

I interpret "off-the-rack, basic bioware" to mean "bioware of any grade," not "non-cultured bioware." Honestly, if the intent was that the quality NOT apply to cultured bioware, you'd think they'd mention that fact.

[StealthSigma]

I interpret "off-the-rack, basic bioware" to mean "bioware of any grade," not "non-cultured bioware." Honestly, if the intent was that the quality NOT apply to cultured bioware, you'd think they'd mention that fact.

Off the rack is a term spawned from the clothing industry that means merchandise made in standard sizes and ready-made. You go in, say I want that, and you're given it. When used in regard to bioware, that would mean any bioware that is "mass-produced" and would excluded cultured bioware since that is a custom fit.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Uhhh, since you describe intelligence agencies, and special forces as bland I take it that you think all intelligence agents are desk jockies that mull over data, and all special forces troops are just as bland and unthinking as "grunts" trained to be efficient killers. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Now you personally may not find those interesting, but here's an interesting article for you to read.

Today's lesson:

Using a 7.62mm round, snipers can shoot nearly silently as long as they're shooting from over 600 meters. A bullet leaves the rifle barrel faster than the speed of sound. The cracking sound a bullet makes is a tiny sonic boom. Even if a target doesn't hear the rifle shot, he will hear the bullet fly by. But the drag created by wind resistance on a 7.62mm round as it travels through the air slows the bullet down to sub-sonic speeds at around 600 meters. So at ranges over 600 meters, the bullet no longer makes that distinct cracking sound. Army Ranger Sniper tells us, "If you're shooting at a target 800 or 1,000 meters out, you could be shooting at that person all day long and they don't even know they are being shot at."

[Rasumichin]

I interpret "off-the-rack, basic bioware" to mean "bioware of any grade," not "non-cultured bioware." Honestly, if the intent was that the quality NOT apply to cultured bioware, you'd think they'd mention that fact.

Basic bioware does not refer to standard-grade ware (the category opposed to alpha, beta and delta ware), but to bioware that is not cultured specifically for the recipient.
If you don't believe me, look up Cyber- And Bioware Grades and Cultured Bioware in the gear section of the BBB.

It's terribly irritating and i would have ignored that leftover from previous editions altogether, but the rules in fact distinguish bioware using two sets of categories : there is basic and cultured bioware and there is standard, alpha, beta and delta bioware simultaniously.
So you can have stuff like bioware that is basic and standard at the same time, but also cultured standard bioware as well as basic delta bioware and so on.

So in fact, the quality explicitly prohibits cultured bioware from receiving the benefits from Type 0 System, but only implicitly limits it to standard grade ware.
It's just awful.
Every time bioware grades and/or Type O are discussed, somebody gets confused by that wording.
It's one of the best examples for poorly edited, ambiguous writing in SR4.

[Mäx]

I interpret "off-the-rack, basic bioware" to mean "bioware of any grade," not "non-cultured bioware." Honestly, if the intent was that the quality NOT apply to cultured bioware, you'd think they'd mention that fact.

Basic bioware is all the non-cultured bioware and is listed as such in all the wre tables.
And the off-the-rack part limits it to standart and alpha grades, but as they both count as delta there's no reason to get alpha grade basic bioware if you have Type-O system quality.