Two questions.

Would you allow Restricted Gear to allow a character access to deltaware implants, which, despite having no higher availability than normalware, are off-limits? I reckon it's about as hard to get a deltaware cyberarm and have it installed as it would be to get heavy milspec armor and have it fitted, the latter of which is RAW legal.

Would you allow Restricted Gear on a cyberlimb to extend to the limb's additions? For example, if a troll wants a STR 10 BOD 10 AGI 5 customized cyberlimb, he needs to take Restricted Gear. Would he also need a different instance of Restricted Gear to put a heavy pistol in it, at your table?

No.

Yes and yes.

Does he have a written and fleshed out background that includes a well defined reason for having the gear AND that provides the GM some ways to work with/manipulate the character? I'll allow just about anything if it's not going to be clearly game-breaking and the character concept is well worked out with a written backstory. If the player won't go to that much work, then NO.


I'd say no, but that because I'm not in favor of either cyberlimbs or trolls. Much less trolls with super cyberlimbs.

Delta ware in itself doesn't have a higher Availability, but you need an appropriate clinic to install the 'ware.
According to Augmentation, delta clinics in themselves have an Availability of 24, which is off-limits even for Restricted Gear.
So no, i most likely wouldn't allow it in my game.

What Rasumichin said.

On a related note, I use the wares availability house rule from DK's excel charsheet available on these boards. Alpha +2, Beta +4, Delta +10. It just makes more sense than disallowing Beta cybereyes just because they're beta.

No. I concur with Ras.

Yes, unless it's part of a suite.

That's moronic: crunch rewards for fluff work (when work doesn't even correlate to good RPing) is a really good way to unbalance a game.

I'm not interested in a "balanced" game, I'm interested in a fun game. Everyone having equally boring characters that all can't routinely succeed at anything is balanced, but not fun. An since the few million to make use of the really cool deltaware, like synaptic booster 3, isn't included, I really don't care that someone has something that costs less of a metagame balance mechanic.

I am assuming we are talking about taking the gear at chargen. I am with KZT on this one, I would allow it if the character has a good background which provides a reason for them having the gear. As KZT implied, this background would also have to be good enough so that there are some repurcussions in store for the character.

On a side note, there is no need to resort to name calling, and for me, having a good background is part of what makes for good RPing.

I have a complicated system at my table for rewarding players for fluff work. All rewards are crunchy bits like karma and cash. The reasoning is that some folks will be more interested and excited in the character, and thus should be rewarded. We know why they are here, they want karma like everyone else. Other players might want to go the extra mile and write up some fiction or some such to get those last few points they need to get whatever they feel rounds out the character. That's fine too.
Not everyone is balanced, but during play things get out of balance anyway. Some players get extra karma awarded for actions during game. Some players work a side job and make more money. There's nothing wrong with crunch rewards for a player enriching the game.

The way I run this quality it basically means you have something you aren't supposed to normally have, and if you can afford it there are no questions. Parts of a whole, like commlink parts, are included in the one instance of Restricted Gear. As long as the parts of the whole cannot be pulled out and be a functioning unit on their own (like a drone) I consider them included.

Personally I view deltaware as being the holy grail of cyber that people whisper about but no-one actually ever sees without selling their soul to one of the corps. So no, I wouldn't allow it even if Rasumichin didn't already win the thread by pointing out that the Delta Clinics necessary to install the cyber are beyond the reach of the edge you want to use.

If you never use it, never see it and never play with it what fun is it? I'm not saying hand out Delta grade stuff all nilly willy, or the like, but man if no one ever sees it, why have it?

For the same reason that any "Holy Grail" exists, as an virtually unreachable dream. And of course, Corp Hounds might have some if their masters think the cost is worth it.

In fact, i have made it clear that delta grade clinics aren't that rare as i won the thread.
These aren't the 50s anymore.

Remember this is Dumpshock, where I can declare that you've won the thread while at the very same time disagree with you.

Seriously though, the fluff involving the Delta Clinics makes them sound pretty damn rare, more so than the rules suggest they are, and I've always argued that fluff should generally win over the rules when the two disagree.

Availability 24 is pretty damn rare, but delta clinics are a lot more common than they used to be, because technology happens to advance and spread out.
Still rare, but not "only whispered of".
That would be a clinic that also offers cybermancy or cyborg adaptation.

There was a time when alpha and beta ware where cutting edge, now they're available to everyone who shells out the .
Delta grade implants haven't trickled down that far, but i see no reason to make them unavailable to players once the game advances.

To have something for the characters to shoot for...
It might take time and effort, but eventually you may/will develop the contacts and resources to have that Delta Grade Cyberware installed...

As an example... with 205 Karma... amd a little over a year of active play weekly, I have managed to find that Beta Grade Clinic and find rumors of a Delta Grade Clinic that I may be able to use... with that information, I have unpgraded about 1/2 of my cyber systems to Beta Grade (with the rest on the way) as I continue to develop to contacts to confirm the existence and willingness of the Delta Grade Clinic to perform the work on me... yes it is expensive, but it is the journey, not the destination that really matters... teh progression that has taken place will actually validate that Delta Grade 'ware that I have been searching for all that time, as the mechanical progression will be very obvious having gone through all the levels required to obtain it (Alpha to Beta to Delta)...

Keep the Faith

Well Rasumichin, if I were feeling contary I'd argue that the idea behind the SOTA rules pretty much voids your argument, the tech that was called Deltaware in the 2050s is now off-the-rack stuff and an 2050s Wired Reflexs III is now lucky to be considered Second Hand Wired I, ect, ect...

I would limit the restricted gear to only one item for a cyberlimb or weapon. Don't really need a Plasteel Panther Assault Cannon w/ under barrel flamethrower or a stacked weapon/power focus at character creation.

As for having betaware or above I again would go with the initial character creation rules. Part of the reason is it discourages ridiculously optimized cyberware. The other reason is it encourages players to work toward something. Want to see players leave your table then put them against low level threats and have them maxed out in skills, etc.

As for giving extra points for players who put work into their characters I find is a good method. Then players start having 3 dimensional characters rather than a brooding loner. It gives me platforms for future stories and encourages characters having friends and family as they get more rewards (karma or BP). It also makes the game more fun as the game becomes more about them rather than a serial of the week.

If the mechanical challenges are the sum total of what keeps your characters coming back to your table then your doing something wrong. If anything i"ve found that players do occasionally like a milk run, opposition that just isn't prepared for the, of course they do occasionally appreciate being majorly outgunned and outclassed as long as it feels at least a little bit organic.

One of the better games i've ever run I let folks have delta cyberware to start (gave the magic users two extra points of magic to compensate). It was a lot of fun but made for a very high end game. The biggest problem I've actually found with Cyberware is the characters never seem to have the money for it unless the payment for runs gets quickly into the rediculous range.

I agree with part one.

Part 2 makes me wonder why the frag you are playing shadowrun.

I am not in favor of Shadowrun or shadowrun much less shadowrun with shadowrun.

I found by being a player and GMing that players like to be the center of the story. They are not some side characters in a bigger plot (even if they are minor in the world the story still revolves around them). As a GM the more a player fleshes out their character the more connection they feel and the more material it gives me to tailor the story to them. So I reward them with extra BP at the beginning for fleshing out their characters, which in my view is not any different than giving them extra karma after an adventure for roleplaying. If a player spends 4-5 hours writing a solid story then I think they should be rewarded. It also does not hurt a player for fleshing out their character by buying skills to make their character more 3 dimensional as they can get some of those points by writing a good story. The same can not be said of characters with a hard cap of 400bp during creation.

I am now creating a character entirely based around the fact that the character has the Restricted Gear quality and Synaptic Booster 3.....

Yeah, one could argue this way, but given that Essence costs haven't changed that much, it would be relatively pointless, right?
In general, i like the notion of how tech has developed over 20 years of ingame time as well as the more transhumanist angle of SR4.
And when it comes to deciding wether crunch or fluff is "right", i don't have a general preference, i'll base my decision on what fits my game better.

In the case of ware grades, this means freely available alpah- and betaware (the latter being in line with the fluff, but not some of the crunch) and deltaware that's rare and tailored for the elite, but still available to people who know where they have to look and what favors to call in (which is both in line with fluff and crunch).
Plus, it fits my "just roll with it", permissive approach to GMing.
If my players want something, they can get it, as long as they put an appropriate amount of work into it and live with the consequences.
Why should i make my job harder by giving up on plot hooks the players throw at me?

If you want to handle things differently, i don't really care.
Who am i to say how to run your game?



First meeting :
"And what can you do?"
"I'm FAST!"

No, seriously, that could actually work out nicely in the long run.

Yeah, until his girlfriend gets tired of sex with a big gerbil.

Fast, and it's freaking hard to tell he's fast. It's easily one of the most expensive pieces of gear that a runner could want, unless you're talking Beta/Delta grade on some of the other stuff. The problem is that you now only have 10,000 nuyen left to work with, without taking any of the qualities that give you more money.

Fast, and it's freaking hard to tell he's fast. It's easily one of the most expensive pieces of gear that a runner could want, unless you're talking Beta/Delta grade on some of the other stuff. The problem is that you now only have 10,000 nuyen left to work with, without taking any of the qualities that give you more money.

I don't bother with Restricted Gear. Or Availability at all during character creation. If a character's concept has him in possession of a high Availability item, such as a Former Military Sniper with a Ranger-Arms SM-4, he deserves to have it as much as that Street Shaman has a right to a Streetline Special. This applies to deltaware, too, which has its own associated restrictions (namely cost). So if you wanna blow 200,000 nuyen of your starting resources on a baseline delta cyberlimb, be my guest... as long as you can tell me why you have it and why it's vital to your character's concept (as opposed to stats).

type O system (30 BP)
restricted gear (5 BP)
deltagrade synaptic boosters (4.8 BP)

and this doesn't even use modified delta availability rules

edit: and essentially you're saving 3.2 BP, giving up other positive qualities until after chargen, and allowing yourself to spend a lot more money

EDIT: Please Ignore

<twitches>

One thing people tend to overlook is is physad can get thwe same bene's for synaptic booster 3 at chargen.

Overlook? Nope. Ignoring? Yep.

Rasumichin well since I am feeling contary at the moment I'd agrue that the reason the Essence costs have largely stayed the same is that in the quest for SOTA, more and more meat keeps being cut away even as tech reduces the Essence costs. 2070s Wired Reflexes actually replaces much more than 2050s Wired does just to keep pace.

Except by that notion magical initiative boosters should be limited to 2 IP's as their not keeping pace with the increased sota of wired reflexes.

It's all a game balance equation, unfortunately it's a game balance equation that favors magic to the point where tech becomes pointless.

How exactly are you getting synaptic boosters with 4,8 buildpoints, should that read 48 BP.
And type O system doesn't work for cultured bioware, only for basic.

thanks for calling me out

ignore that previous post

I assumed something without doing math or checking books or reading careful, essentially I was driving along dumpshock drunk backwards and with my eyes closed, oops

or both of these posts... can I delete them?

EDIT: I suppose you can ignore this post too.

As has been pointed out, this would result in magical reflex enhancements becomming relatively slower.

Ok, one could argue that maybe those wizards and ninja type guys did their research and the magical SOTA has kept up with the technical one.

Which would, all in all, mean that unaugmented mundanes should be a whole lot more outclassed by people with reflex enhancements now than they where in 2050.

Taking a look at SR2's insane initiative rules, where you could stack all kinds of whacky things, had no hardcap for intitiative passes and could go 4 or 5 times before the grunts could barely twitch, this is clearly not the case.
Probably it has been retconned, who knows?

See where this leads?

Please, let's get back to some line of argument that is in some way conducive to the original topic.

Well, he also said delta-grade Synaptic Boosters, which even rating one isn't affordable at chargen, unless all cultured bioware is considered delta-grade...

Delta Synaptic Boosters 1 : 800,000
Delta Synaptic Boosters 2 : 1,600,000
Delta Synaptic Boosters 3 : 2,400,000

That would be why he listed Type O System quality, but as I said that doesn't help with cultured ware.

I thought Type O reduced the essence cost of augmentations, what does it really do?

It lets basic, unused, standard bioware count as deltaware because you happen to have the generic cell line upon which all non-cultured bioware is based.
Therefore, it's perfectly suited for you and only causes half of the usual Essence loss, just like delta ware.
As neural bioware isn't considered basic, but cultured bioware that is always grown specifically for a single customer, you do not get the discount on things such as Synaptic Boosters, Cerebral Boosters, Reflex Recorders, Trauma Dampers and so on if you have Type O System.

I would just get rid of availability, if that's how you're going to do it. What you're doing is encouraging your characters to all have similar high powered backgrounds. They're going to be special forces this, ex-military that, intelligence agents... Basically, anything where you have to cut your hair short, salute, and not be colorful or exciting, because that's who gets training with the fanciest toys. What you're telling your players is that they can play a really interesting and fun gutter punk, they'll just be punished in terms of what gear they can start with. Since military types tend to lead to the blandest characters (and sometimes most useless characters because people who make them tend to want to take every skill group at 3, thus wasting all their BP without getting much out of it) I think encouraging them with crunch-based rewards is bad policy.

Ah, I didn't realize a 50% reduction in essence cost. So it's not true delta-ware. Does this benefit stack with the essence reductions from alpha/beta/delta? So that Type 0 Deltaware is 75% essence cost?

That 50% reduction is becouse it makes standart/alpha grade basic bioware act as deltaware for you, so everythink over standart grade is just waste of money.

Or if you're really tired of the conversation, you can change the topic!

So when a cybersam pixie dies, isn't the cyber still there?

Uhhh, since you describe intelligence agencies, and special forces as bland I take it that you think all intelligence agents are desk jockies that mull over data, and all special forces troops are just as bland and unthinking as "grunts" trained to be efficient killers. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Now you personally may not find those interesting, but here's an interesting article for you to read.

If anything, I would argue that the Ranger-Arms (that's the sniper rifle that can be broken into a suitcase, right?) is not a valid weapon to take from military service. Military snipers would not likely use such a weapon, or even have a need to use it. Such a sniper rifle is more suited to intelligence agencies that take out targets and they need to go to their shooting point in full view of other people. Military snipers are infiltration experts and are trained to get from point A to point B without being discovered. Between the sniper rifles listed in Arsenal and the main book, only two aren't available at chargen, and that's the Ranger-Arms and the Barrett.

I interpret "off-the-rack, basic bioware" to mean "bioware of any grade," not "non-cultured bioware." Honestly, if the intent was that the quality NOT apply to cultured bioware, you'd think they'd mention that fact.

Off the rack is a term spawned from the clothing industry that means merchandise made in standard sizes and ready-made. You go in, say I want that, and you're given it. When used in regard to bioware, that would mean any bioware that is "mass-produced" and would excluded cultured bioware since that is a custom fit.

Today's lesson:

Basic bioware does not refer to standard-grade ware (the category opposed to alpha, beta and delta ware), but to bioware that is not cultured specifically for the recipient.
If you don't believe me, look up Cyber- And Bioware Grades and Cultured Bioware in the gear section of the BBB.

It's terribly irritating and i would have ignored that leftover from previous editions altogether, but the rules in fact distinguish bioware using two sets of categories : there is basic and cultured bioware and there is standard, alpha, beta and delta bioware simultaniously.
So you can have stuff like bioware that is basic and standard at the same time, but also cultured standard bioware as well as basic delta bioware and so on.

So in fact, the quality explicitly prohibits cultured bioware from receiving the benefits from Type 0 System, but only implicitly limits it to standard grade ware.
It's just awful.
Every time bioware grades and/or Type O are discussed, somebody gets confused by that wording.
It's one of the best examples for poorly edited, ambiguous writing in SR4.

Basic bioware is all the non-cultured bioware and is listed as such in all the wre tables.
And the off-the-rack part limits it to standart and alpha grades, but as they both count as delta there's no reason to get alpha grade basic bioware if you have Type-O system quality.