Question about SR4 spellcasting, force on spells? Options

[Deathmaster35]

I have seen a few threads referencing casting spells above force 6 and I am a little confused as to how this works. Per page 164 force on spells is mesured 1-6, and I dont see anything to augment the force of spells.

Can someone explain to me how you can augment spells to get them over force 6?

[Ancient History]

The minimum Magic attribute is 1, the normal limit for a non-initiate character's Magic attribute is 6, and characters normally do not overcast their spells. Thus, the normal Force of spells is 1-6. However, characters that raise their Magic, or choose to overcast a spell (p.182, SR4A) may of course go higher than normal.

[Bull]

I have seen a few threads referencing casting spells above force 6 and I am a little confused as to how this works. Per page 164 force on spells is mesured 1-6, and I dont see anything to augment the force of spells.

Can someone explain to me how you can augment spells to get them over force 6?

Spells have an unlimited force rating, theoretically.

Characters can cast a spell up to the Magic rating in force, and the drain is Stun.

Characters can cast spells up to double their magic rating, and the drain becomes physical.

Thus a magic rating 5 Mage can cast a Force 10 Lightning bolt. It'll likely leave him hurting a bit, but he can do it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is called Overcasting, and is on Page 205 of SR4A. I'm not sure what page it's on in the regular SR4 book edition.

[Deathmaster35]

I am confused, you two are saying the listed text in the book text is wrong then? It says they are on the same scale as attributes, and per the game concepts attributes have a max of 6 (before racial modifiers and augmentations). Overcasting does not say anything about allowing you to exceed the natural limit, it just says what happens when you cast something with a force higher than your magic. I am just not seeing where you can take an attribute above its natural rating without augmentation, and force is an attribute.

Are listed ratings not really maximums? If a peice of gear says "Itemname (1-6)" does that mean you can choose to buy it at rating 10?

[Phelan Patrick]

spell's force is not an attribute. technically there is no limit


edit: you just choose what force you want to cast a spell. you can fry someone to ashes by throwing a force 100 fireball. you'll die too but at least you've fried your target.




Edit 2: better read the post below me instead.

[Bull]

spell's force is not an attribute. technically there is no limit


edit: you just choose what force you want to cast a spell. you can fry someone to ashes by throwing a force 100 fireball. you'll die too but at least you've fried your target.

That's not totally accurate either. Unless you have a Magic rating of 50, you're capped at twice your magic attribute.

Lemme find the SR4 core book...

Ok, yeah, this is poorly written. Lemme quote the relevant portion:

Force
Spells, spirits, and magic items (foci) have an attribute known as Force. This measures the magical power of the object, spell, or being. Force is measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes (natural 1 to 6). For spells and foci, this is often their only attribute.

Yeah, that's poorly written and I can see how that could confuse someone. What this is saying is that the force attributes are comparable to the attribute ratings: 1 is weak, 6 is pretty powerful. It's on a similar scale. It is not, however, limited the same way.

Page 171 is a better write up, under Sorcery.

Force
A spells only attribute is Force - the measure of the spell's raw power. A spell's Force helps determine its effectiveness and its Drain. The Force of the spell is chosen by the caster during spellcasting, typically at a value up to the Magic attribute of the magician who casts it. The maximum Force that a spell can be cast at is equal to twice the character's Magic.

That's a bit clearer, and is how it's supposed to work.

Bull

[Mäx]

Yeah, that's poorly written and I can see how that could confuse someone. What this is saying is that the force attributes are comparable to the attribute ratings: 1 is weak, 6 is pretty powerful. It's on a similar scale. It is not, however, limited the same way.

It really is, too bad this didn't come up half a year ago, it could have been fixed for anniversary edition.

[MorkaisChosen]

I think the problem may come from the fact that there are a lot of things with force; foci and spirits may well be capped at 6, but spells aren't (unless you have Magic 3).

[Alexand]

It's as simple as page 164 is wrong. Sadly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Everything else in the core book & the supplements contradicts it. There are clearly Force 7+ spells, foci, n spirits that have been shown in various books.

[Mäx]

It's as simple as page 164 is wrong. Sadly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Everything else in the core book & the supplements contradicts it. There are clearly Force 7+ spells, foci, n spirits that have been shown in various books.

It's not really wrong, just badly written as Bull explained.

[Kerenshara]

The minimum Magic attribute is 1, the normal limit for a non-initiate character's Magic attribute is 6, and characters normally do not overcast their spells. Thus, the normal Force of spells is 1-6. However, characters that raise their Magic, or choose to overcast a spell (p.182, SR4A) may of course go higher than normal.

Emphasis mine.

You know, Ancient History, from some of the threads on here, I got the impression some people overcast all the time as a matter of course then just have their medic patch them up...

*grin*

[McAllister]

Indeed they do. How else are you going to one-shot a guard with a stunbolt?

Besides, if adding net hits to a Direct Combat spell's damage also adds to its drain, I'd rather add 2 to its Force for the same +1 drain. Much better deal.

[Kerenshara]

Indeed they do. How else are you going to one-shot a guard with a stunbolt?

Besides, if adding net hits to a Direct Combat spell's damage also adds to its drain, I'd rather add 2 to its Force for the same +1 drain. Much better deal.

*snaps and winds up pointing at you*

Got it in one. On the other hand, the really L33t mojo-slinging badhoop would just split their dice pool and fell the stupid guard with a pair of F6 Stunbolts.

Personally, I don't mind having to follow up, but I'd rather have each spell REALLY work rather than splitting myself to death or overcasting myself into physical damage. But that's me, and I guess I'm just a wimp.

[TBRMInsanity]

*snaps and winds up pointing at you*

Got it in one. On the other hand, the really L33t mojo-slinging badhoop would just split their dice pool and fell the stupid guard with a pair of F6 Stunbolts.

Personally, I don't mind having to follow up, but I'd rather have each spell REALLY work rather than splitting myself to death or overcasting myself into physical damage. But that's me, and I guess I'm just a wimp.

I guess I'm a wimp as well cause I try to never overcast (only if it is a life or death situation). Physical damage is, for a lack of a better word, deadly.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Got it in one. On the other hand, the really L33t mojo-slinging badhoop would just split their dice pool and fell the stupid guard with a pair of F6 Stunbolts.

Unfortunately, that really doesn't work unless the GM refuses to give opponents magical support. Two force 6 spells isn't all that difficult to resist with a decent willpower attribute + counterspelling and/or ward bonus dice and/or the (+ initiate grade) metamagic because of the total-successes-capped-at-force rule. (ex: 5 willpower, 4(6 - combat spells) counterspelling, and a force 6 ward = 17 resistance dice == not quite a 50% chance of resisting even a capped force 6 spell.)

[Kerenshara]

I guess I'm a wimp as well cause I try to never overcast (only if it is a life or death situation). Physical damage is, for a lack of a better word, deadly.

Unfortunately, that really doesn't work unless the GM refuses to give opponents magical support. Two force 6 spells isn't all that difficult to resist with a decent willpower attribute + counterspelling and/or ward bonus dice and/or the (+ initiate grade) metamagic because of the total-successes-capped-at-force rule. (ex: 5 willpower, 4(6 - combat spells) counterspelling, and a force 6 ward = 17 resistance dice == not quite a 50% chance of resisting even a capped force 6 spell.)

Oh, sorry I forgot to put a disclaimer indicating just how sarcastic I was being...

I just have lost count on the number of times I have heard somebody say something along the lines of my being a wimp (actually, pussy, IIRC) for trying to avoid physical drain, or not just splitting spells or what not.

Pain is pain, and most people try to avoid it, even if it's healable.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Heh...no worries. There's been a few "magic is overpowered and it has nothing to do with me not providing any magic opposition!" posts lately, and they make me very, very tired.
Hackers & Technos are overpowered without opposition as well, but you don't see nearly as many complaints about them.

I don't disagree with your in-character choices - though I tend to look at it as: "What's worse? A likely 1 box of physical or 4 boxes of stun?" Which is only exasperated by the 4A optional rules. Either should heal by tomorrow, but only one gives a penalty to trying to stay alive for the next few hours.

[SaDode]

If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for. C.H. Spurgeon

[Kerenshara]

If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for. C.H. Spurgeon

OK, that's kind of cool...

But *shakes head to clear the buzzing* where the grapp did THAT come from?