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> Burst Fire Pistols, and the runners who love them...
fourstring_samur...
post Jan 26 2004, 08:38 PM
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I don't have the CC handy, but do all bursts from a burst fire pistol require a complex action? i don't remember this from the custom gun design options in the cc, but the BF pistols from the main book and others require a complex action.

am i missing something?
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Lilt
post Jan 26 2004, 08:42 PM
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Only the Savalette Guardian's BF takes a complex action, the others are simple actions as per the standard combat rules.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 26 2004, 08:43 PM
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The design options don't mention anything of the sort. It seems at least the Fichetti Executive Action and the FN 5-7C fire bursts as Simple Actions, but all others as Compelx Actions.

It's 2 - 2: Beretta 200ST and Savalette Guardian take a Complex, FEA and 5-7C take a Simple.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 26 2004, 08:45 PM
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Lantzer
post Jan 26 2004, 08:53 PM
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If you are talking about _designing_ guns for your game, I'd suggest the following rule of thumb:

1) Machine pistols use a simple action.
2) Others use a complex

I know the canon pistols are inconsistent.
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FlakJacket
post Jan 26 2004, 11:14 PM
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Why? Although I can see it from a game balance point of view, why should it be any different between a handgun, machine pistol or submachine guns? Whilst most of the real world ones appear to be more 3 round burst rather than fully automatic, something like the Fire Selector System for Glocks shows it's fairly easy to do. Watch the film clip, it's quite amusing. Although it's likely to give GM's nightmares if they ever allowed it, or a much more lethal game than normal. :)
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mfb
post Jan 26 2004, 11:16 PM
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if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action.
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Cray74
post Jan 26 2004, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (fourstring_samurai)
I don't have the CC handy, but do all bursts from a burst fire pistol require a complex action? i don't remember this from the custom gun design options in the cc, but the BF pistols from the main book and others require a complex action.

am i missing something?

I don't think the Ares Viper requires a complex action to burst fire.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 26 2004, 11:52 PM
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Right, so it's actually Complex 2 - Simple 3.

That FSS looks fun... And doesn't give me any headaches.
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sir fwank
post Jan 27 2004, 12:15 AM
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mauser gladiator
Concealability: 5
Ammunition: 12©
Mode: SA/BF
Damage: 9M
Weight: 3
Availability: 10/16Days
Cost: 1200
Street Index: 3.5
Accessories: RC(2)

from arsenal 2060. btw the german guns are listed in the german.dat files on mcmackies site, with a little tinkering...

i love the german guns.
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FlakJacket
post Jan 27 2004, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
That FSS looks fun... And doesn't give me any headaches.

Well it's more of a game style thing. I've known people that were fine with it and others that wouldn't allow the thing within twelve feet of their games. The guy using it in-game also talked the GM into using Raygun's Burst Fire Control edge and loaded the thing with a heavy barrel, personalised grip and a smartlink-2. It got very... Underworld-esque. :D Although the GM can just use the standard whatever the players have, so can the NPC's argument. :)
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 27 2004, 07:49 AM
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In my games, without Burst Fire Control, heavy barrels, personalized grips or underbarrel weights (or shock pads, or gas vents), there isn't much to be done to reduce the recoil. 1 point of RC is most you can get into a pistol IMG, which is a nice deterrent against that sort of thing.

And "so can the NPCs" is great in this case, because semi-auto pistols modified for fully automatic are easy enough to get hold of even for gangers. On the other hand, so are assault rifles...
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Gem the Troll
post Jan 27 2004, 01:09 PM
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Just remember strength 6 provides 1 point of recoil, and so does any stregth score beyond that (i.e. 7 gives 2, 8 gives 3)...
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 27 2004, 01:21 PM
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Not in my games they don't. :)
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Velocity
post Jan 27 2004, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE
mfb wrote:
if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action.

Hear, hear.
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Siege
post Jan 27 2004, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (Velocity)
QUOTE
mfb wrote:
if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action.

Hear, hear.

If memory serves, trying to get your hands on a burst-fire pistol is difficult enough, never mind trying to find a SA BF weapon.

And truthfully, if I have to engage a target a close to point blank ranges, I'll settle for a 3k, 12S weapon -- complex action or not. :grinbig:

-Siege
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mfb
post Jan 27 2004, 03:02 PM
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why? just get a T-250 with EX ammo. the conceal's only 1 point lower (!).

it should also be noted that the Slivergun--the premiere BF pistol--has a lower Avail than a taser.
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Siege
post Jan 27 2004, 03:12 PM
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The T-250 is a shotgun.

It's larger, heavier and harder to handle in a single hand than a heavy pistol.

Not to mention if more difficult to haul around if you have other things to carry like: medkits, microtronic toolkits and so on.

But primarily I like the idea of a burst-fire handgun because if you get in extremely close-quarters combat, managing a shotgun is a bit more difficult than a handgun. Call it a holdover from too many Cthulhu sessions. :grinbig:

-Siege

Edit: I've never liked sliver guns for the specific target selection attached to sliver weapons.

Edit: Hah! The SG is .25 kilos heavier than the 250. Oh well, my other points still stand. :grinbig:
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Modesitt
post Jan 27 2004, 06:19 PM
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There's no sense in me repeating what I or others said before me. So linkage!

Link to a post where I compare the machine pistols in SR.

Thread regarding heavy pistols, where a number of people comment that the complex fire thing is a holdover from the older editions and I perform a mini-hijack. Don't read past the first page.

I looked some in the archives, but I couldn't find anything more about burst firing pistols. Well, I DID but they're all either bitchfests about the AVS/Called shots(Pretty much the same thing) or people trying to get dual-wielding characters a break.
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Velocity
post Jan 27 2004, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE
mfb wrote:
if i'm gonna pay upwards of three grand for a burst-fire pistol, it's damn well going to burst on a simple action.
QUOTE
Velocity wrote:
Hear, hear.
QUOTE
Siege wrote:
If memory serves, trying to get your hands on a burst-fire pistol is difficult enough, never mind trying to find a SA BF weapon.

Wait, don't tell me you actually buy your weapons off the rack? C'mon Siege, you've gotta be kidding me: unless you're looking for a throwaway gun (i.e. an Ares Predator you ditch in a dumpster after capping the corp veep), shouldn't you always custom build--or custom-order--your gun? Granted, it's a pricy proposition but well worth it in the long run. And as for making the weapon traceable... well, don't get caught and don't lose your gun. :)
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Siege
post Jan 27 2004, 09:07 PM
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Look at it this way: if you can find a weapon that fits your particular needs with a minimum of tweaking, you have more time for other things that also demand your attention.

Especially if you're not the gun bunny.

-Siege
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 27 2004, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (Gem the Troll)
Just remember strength 6 provides 1 point of recoil, and so does any stregth score beyond that (i.e. 7 gives 2, 8 gives 3)...

Er, no, no it doesn't. Any Strength between 6 and 10 or so offers a single point, 11-16 or somesuch is another point, and 17 and up is 3 points of RC.
Numbers pulled out of my arse, but that's the general scale. No 3 RC for cybered humans.

~J
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kevyn668
post Jan 27 2004, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE
Siege Posted on Jan 27 2004, 09:07 PM
  Look at it this way: if you can find a weapon that fits your particular needs with a minimum of tweaking, you have more time for other things that also demand your attention.


My needs for a pistol tend to be pretty simple: Intimidate those I can. Shoot those I can't.

I agree w/ Seige. I generally don't like custom guns. It could be years of that Other Game influencing me, but I don't like to rely on modifers if I can avoid it. A gun, the bad guys/good guys (depending on your perspective) [read: GM] can take from you. Often times just when you need those mods the most...

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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 27 2004, 09:17 PM
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Actually it's 6-11 for 1 RC, 12-18 for 2 and 19+ for 3. But not in my game.
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Velocity
post Jan 27 2004, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE
Siege wrote:
Look at it this way: if you can find a weapon that fits your particular needs with a minimum of tweaking, you have more time for other things that also demand your attention.

Very true. I'm just reminded of the old Punisher comics, where Frank spent his waking hours either shooting people or tweaking his shooters so they'd shoot people better. You and kevyn668 both make good points, but I still think it's worth investing the time and currency into customizing your weapons. One doesn't have to use a custom-built gun as a crutch, but it is nice to have. :)
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kevyn668
post Jan 27 2004, 09:41 PM
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Fair enough :)
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