Priority, who gets it? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Meh, personally I figure that Shadowrun 4.5 overrides the older "advanced" books since it is the newest book out and I expect some hefty errata to be issued to correct the various incompatablities ... of course I also expect to be heavily disappointed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

According to the Anniversary Edition, the remaining CORE books are still Advanced Rules... I do not see a lot of additional errata over what has already been presented for each book in question...

[Ravor]

Sure, and I'd expect them to still be listed as such, after all, it's not as if they are going to be completely rewritten as THE Core book was. However with that said, new errata is needed to bring them in line with Fourth Edition 4.5.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, and I'd expect them to still be listed as such, after all, it's not as if they are going to be completely rewritten as THE Core book was. However with that said, new errata is needed to bring them in line with Fourth Edition 4.5.

Agreed, There are a few places where errata would be appreciated...

[Ravor]

Aye, but I think that we disagree on the following issue, when the books disagree, I think that Fourth Edition 2.0 should be considered the better source until we get some serious errata that brings the books back into line with each other.

[pbangarth]

This thread is the latest in an increasingly frequent number of posts that lead me to say:

"Wow. Just ... wow."

[Cain]

As I said, you can do D&D with just the PHB, but it will be bland and boring and will be unable to touch the topics which the game iconifies (Dungeons and Dragons).

What a load of hooey. I've run interesting and exciting games of D&D using nothing but the PHB. Granted, this was just recently, with 4e, which places most of the rules in the PHB. And we certainly hit upon what iconic bits 4e offers us (I'm of the opinion that it's not really iconic D&D, but that's another topic).

Bland and boring? I don't think so.

As for the 4.5 rulebook, it's a very complete core ruleset. Still, the rule-of-thumb is that specific-case rules trump general ones, so I'd go with the advanced books for the final word. For example, the general rule is that you can have no more than 4 initiative passes. Unwired makes it so you can have 5. Specific rule wins.

[Paul]

This is all about subjective taste. Like Cain I could make an RPG work with just a glance at the cover of a book. Other people like more. There is no wrong as long as you're having fun.

[Ravor]

OK, you've gotten me curious, how so pbangarth?

[pbangarth]

OK, you've gotten me curious, how so pbangarth?

Well, in the case of this thread I am amazed at the level of minutia that can elicit deep and heated discussion. The meaning of 'core' and to which books it applies, whether it is written on the books or not, seems really important to some.

Maybe I just don't understand.

[Falconer]

They're supposed to be releasing updated SR4a errata for ALL the specialty books.

Until then, as far as I'm concerned, SR4a overrides them all as it is the newest.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They're supposed to be releasing updated SR4a errata for ALL the specialty books.

Until then, as far as I'm concerned, SR4a overrides them all as it is the newest.

Certainly your perrogative... I am however going to use the Indicators IN SR4A that the other core books are the Advanced Rules and use them as such...

Keep the Faith...

[Falconer]

Tymeaus:
Really the only one I think there is a problem with is Unwired. Not only is it the weakest of the specialty books.

But they turned around and redid the matrix again in SR4a... so the foundation got torn up.

In Street Magic, some of the karma costs are off now. (EG: optional rule for buying adept powers as metamagics... 15 karma was equiv to mag5 before, now it's only equiv to mag3). RC == karmagen reportedly has large changes coming, augmentation == nothing's really changed (except that they never put an errata out for it in the first place!!), Arsenal == new sensor rules in SR4a, and again matrix section changes can affect drones.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus:
Really the only one I think there is a problem with is Unwired. Not only is it the weakest of the specialty books.

But they turned around and redid the matrix again in SR4a... so the foundation got torn up.

In Street Magic, some of the karma costs are off now. (EG: optional rule for buying adept powers as metamagics... 15 karma was equiv to mag5 before, now it's only equiv to mag3). RC == karmagen reportedly has large changes coming, augmentation == nothing's really changed (except that they never put an errata out for it in the first place!!), Arsenal == new sensor rules in SR4a, and again matrix section changes can affect drones.

No Arguments that updates/errata will be needed, but even the Anniversary Edition touts them as Advanced Rules, and gives the changes that are affected for most things that are an issue...

No worries though, I am sure they will eventually get to it at some point...

Keep the Faith...

[eidolon]

I didn't really think that SR4A did much to hurt Unwired. Most of the prattling on in Unwired is theory and concept, high level stuff. Ideas.

[Falconer]

eidolon:
I feel that Unwired badly suffers from a 'left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing' problem. Especially when you start hitting things like fine details.

SR4a didn't completely redo the matrix, but that section out of all of them saw the most substantial changes. So while the high level ideas are there, there's a LOT of room for clarification. If you like ambiguity as a GM, that's good. If you like a bit of certainty that 2+2==4 as a player, not so much. (I also admit, I've been doing theorycrafting in this area, as I've been wanting to try out playing a decker, but haven't had the chance).

And as such the rules seem to be a bit disconnected. A lot of the items in it are nice in isolation, but when you start mixing them up too much it gets bad. Then you get stuff like people coming out of chargen w/ full rating 6 cracked software suites (w/ program options) for a song and a little bit of lifestyle upkeep.

[eidolon]

I think that's where a lot of these discussions go wrong. So many gaming conversations on the internet, and I'm just as guilty as anyone, are based solely on reading the books and conducting thought exercises.

For example, you're bothered that everyone can just start out with all R6 programs for just a little money. But in my experience, most dedicated hacker types start with all R6 progs anyway, even if you're just using core. So has anything changed? Not really. A player that wants to spend the BP to get and spend the ¥? More power to them, it's BP they didn't spend elsewhere. They get them with the rules in UW? Hey, I'm glad they actually bothered to read a book.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that's where a lot of these discussions go wrong. So many gaming conversations on the internet, and I'm just as guilty as anyone, are based solely on reading the books and conducting thought exercises.

For example, you're bothered that everyone can just start out with all R6 programs for just a little money. But in my experience, most dedicated hacker types start with all R6 progs anyway, even if you're just using core. So has anything changed? Not really. A player that wants to spend the BP to get and spend the ¥? More power to them, it's BP they didn't spend elsewhere. They get them with the rules in UW? Hey, I'm glad they actually bothered to read a book.

This...

[Falconer]

Then why even bother w/ lower grade programs.

Seriously. If it's trivial to have rating 6, optomized, ergonomic programs for a bit of upkeep. Especially for the run of the mill, non-hacking ones like edit.

The problem isn't that they spent points on it, it's that the cost is so low, and the drawbacks so slight, and advantages so good compared to paying 10x as much to buy the things. (audit logs make cracked software practically mandatory). One of the major changes in Unwired is that it basically slashes all software costs by 90%.

You're talking about the difference between coming out of chargen w/ a full suite of software and little else. Or coming out of chargen w/ the ALL the programs AND a fleet of drones/top flight cyber.



It's one thing to wave someone off for theorycrafting (I have had a chance to play a decker prior to 4a), it's quite another to make a cogent counter-argument. Also the read a book crack shows a pretty low opinion of the target market as well I'd say.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Then why even bother w/ lower grade programs.

Seriously. If it's trivial to have rating 6, optomized, ergonomic programs for a bit of upkeep. Especially for the run of the mill, non-hacking ones like edit.

The problem isn't that they spent points on it, it's that the cost is so low, and the drawbacks so slight, and advantages so good compared to paying 10x as much to buy the things. (audit logs make cracked software practically mandatory). One of the major changes in Unwired is that it basically slashes all software costs by 90%.

You're talking about the difference between coming out of chargen w/ a full suite of software and little else. Or coming out of chargen w/ the ALL the programs AND a fleet of drones/top flight cyber.

Because the Average person is never going to obtain illegal software in the Shadowrun Universe, and lower rated programs fill a niche that is there, where people cannot afford Cutting Edge Software, especially when a lesser rated program will do... When is the last time you payed 6000 USD for a Cutting Edge Office Suite? Even at 600+ for a Cracked Version... Most people do not do this, it is a vast waste of money for very little gain...

However, for those individuals that live and die by their software (those Hackers in Shadowrun), they will beg, borrow, steal and even code their own software if it will give them an edge... Remember, the Legitimate Spiders of the Megacorps are using Legal (as in Non-Cracked, Production) Programs, probably with very little in the way of uber-modifications on them, as that is what the Corps provide for them...

Keep the Faith...

[eidolon]

First off, I misread a bit of that earlier. Well fuck, misread part of it and half-ass replied anyway. You guys'll have to cut me a bit of slack if you can, I'm got some shit going on that's keeping me, well, stressed out and not always entirely with it. My bad.

To more properly reply, I don't have a problem with characters starting out with R6 stuff because it costs a buttload of their BPs in cash. That is still correct.

The reason that I don't have the problem of them starting out with R6 everything for a penny-on-the-nuyen is because I don't allow the purchase of pirated software at chargen. I could go on about why, but nobody really cares and you'd just argue with me anyway.

Also the read a book crack shows a pretty low opinion of the target market as well I'd say.

As an aside, what do I care about "target markets?" I'm not talking about some random sample of people, I'm speaking from the experience that comes from having run and played games for over a decade. I have known a lot of people that couldn't be arsed to actually crack a book and learn the game; not just the three pages that they need to build a character, but the world, setting, fluff, and hey, even the rules so I don't have to tell them what to do every ten minutes.

I've had a lot of great players that did like to read the books. I've also played with a lot of casual gamers that don't.