New Spell Concept, Resuscitation Options

[Muspellsheimr]

No resurrection in Shadowrun. One of the many things I like about the system.

Recently, however, I began thinking about possibly a limited form of resurrection that would be a viable spell; resuscitating the recently deceased. This is possible out to several minutes after death currently, & I see no reason Magic would be unable to accomplish a similar result. Justification would be that the 'soul' does not depart the body instantaneously.


I have no working statistics for the spell, but a few ideas on how it should work. I am posting here for any suggestions on how to work it. I am not interested in any "This doesn't work" type comments.

Thus far, I have decided that the spell would possess a Threshold equal to the minutes dead (round up) or something similar. In addition, the body must be capable of supporting life - if they require a heart to live, & their heart damaged beyond use or missing, it doesn't work.



Ideas?

[Ancient History]

Health spell, character still has physical damage overflow et al. but is no longer dead (still takes damage every (Body) Combat Turns) unless they receive proper treatment. Must be done within (Body) Combat Turns or it automatically fails; on a glitch the character gets brain damage.

[Screaming Eagle]

I'd probably myself start by making it a manipulation spell - more a magical ER/crash cart then a healing spell, this gets past the whole "you can't heal the dead" thing. I'm away from my books so I'm ill equiped to work out a drain code or crunchy rules and going this way you will probably need a different spell for different types of trauma - move (matter - corpses) for CPR on drowning victims, perhaps some sort of specialised "simulate life" spell for a roving life support machine for those who have "just stopped breathing" for whatever reason... interesting idea, I shall bat it around in my brainium some more.

Would "The recently dead" qualify for "restriected" or "very restricted" target, hmm?

[McAllister]

Maybe the threshold should be equal to the number of minutes dead, but the spellcasting test has a bonus equal to the number of bonus dice equal to the number of physical boxes of the not-quite-totally deceased? So you have a better chance of resuscitating the patient if the body's better prepared to sustain the life that's slipping out of it.

To make it harder, which I think you should, take a leaf out of Petrify's book; rule it such that the Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than the Body of the patient. Another option (use whatever you like) would be to increase the threshold of the spellcasting test by the number of Essence points the patient is missing, or at least impose a dice pool penalty equal to that number, because the soul isn't going to stick around in a machine. To make it more dangerous, which I think you should, make the drain code a total bitch.

Life is cheap, until you want to keep it around. Then it's damn expensive.

[Marwynn]

I'd lower the threshhold if the dead character had Oxygenate cast on him previously, leading up to this spell. That should reduce chances of brain damage. Then Stabilize needs to be cast after a successful Resuscitate spell.

It'd probably be best to work this all into one spell though.

[X-Kalibur]

It almost sounds like it would need to be a combination of health and manipulation. You need to start the heart, get blood flowing to it, keep the veins and arteries open (cardiogenic shock is bad, mmkay?), stop them from bleeding out, make sure the blood is reaching the major organs, maybe have in jumpstart their suprarenals as well, get adrenaline flowing.

[Bugfoxmaster]

Uh, question.

You said that if the body couldn't support life, the spell wouldn't work...

Isn't that usually what causes death? Like a massive brain-fail for manabolt, or acute sudden lead poisoning, or brain-being-ripped-apart, or major blood loss...

Would you hae to piece the body together, heal it, THEN cast the spell?

[Muspellsheimr]

Health spell, character still has physical damage overflow et al. but is no longer dead (still takes damage every (Body) Combat Turns) unless they receive proper treatment. Must be done within (Body) Combat Turns or it automatically fails; on a glitch the character gets brain damage.

Basic premise, except Combat Turns would make the spell nearly useless. The maximum period dead will be determined by the spell's Force &/or Hits, as normal for spellcasting.

I'd probably myself start by making it a manipulation spell - more a magical ER/crash cart then a healing spell, this gets past the whole "you can't heal the dead" thing.

Health spell. Makes much more sense that way, & you can use the same justification - jumpstarting the body, not resurrecting the dead.

Maybe the threshold should be equal to the number of minutes dead, but the spellcasting test has a bonus equal to the number of bonus dice equal to the number of physical boxes of the not-quite-totally deceased? So you have a better chance of resuscitating the patient if the body's better prepared to sustain the life that's slipping out of it.

The closest the game has to 'the not-quite-totally deceased' is Physical Overflow, in which they are still alive but bleeding out. Preexisting healing / stabilization spells cover that.

To make it harder, which I think you should, take a leaf out of Petrify's book; rule it such that the Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than the Body of the patient.

Except someone with an exceptional Body or Willpower should be easier to resuscitate, not more difficult. Overall, I have no plans on including the subject's Attributes - it's the spell doing the work, after all.

Another option (use whatever you like) would be to increase the threshold of the spellcasting test by the number of Essence points the patient is missing, or at least impose a dice pool penalty equal to that number, because the soul isn't going to stick around in a machine. To make it more dangerous, which I think you should, make the drain code a total bitch.

Dice pool penalty to total lost Essence (round up) is standard for all Health spells. I was thinking ~ +5 Drain, but will need to actually look at the Drain charts first.

I'd lower the threshhold if the dead character had Oxygenate cast on him previously, leading up to this spell. That should reduce chances of brain damage. Then Stabilize needs to be cast after a successful Resuscitate spell.

It'd probably be best to work this all into one spell though.

Yes, it is all going to be a single spell. Specific-case effects like that are always best avoided.

It almost sounds like it would need to be a combination of health and manipulation. You need to start the heart, get blood flowing to it, keep the veins and arteries open (cardiogenic shock is bad, mmkay?), stop them from bleeding out, make sure the blood is reaching the major organs, maybe have in jumpstart their suprarenals as well, get adrenaline flowing.

Still going to go with Health - all of those fit.

Would you hae to piece the body together, heal it, THEN cast the spell?

If it was death by damage, yes, that was the original idea I had. However, Health spells only work on living targets, so now I am considering two possible fixes.
1) The spell includes a limited form of healing to restore the patient to a livable condition.
2) The spell sustains the target for a period of time after casting in which healing spells can be applied; after this time has elapsed, if the subject would still be dead, they are dead.

Either way, mundane healing before the application of the spell should work fine.

I am also now considering making the Threshold equal to damage in excess of Physical Overflow (+1 per minute or partial thereof from death). This would work particularly well with the 1st adjustment I listed above, in addition to making it difficult to pull off (which I think it should be).




Heading out for the rest of the day; maybe I'll have an actual draft done by the time I get back.

[X-Kalibur]

Thinking on it more, perhaps making it a sustained spell (the magic is literally keeping the body alive by working the organs) until they can get proper medical attention would be more appropriate.

[Marwynn]

This seems to work hand in hand with Stabilize in my mind. Resuscitate heals overflow damage only, with a threshold equal to the amount of overflow damage + minutes (rounded down) dead. Extra hits can be used as hit dice for subsequent castings of Stabilize or Heal.

Resuscitate can be cast multiple times over the same overflow damage, but the drain gets progressively stronger each time.

So it's more like "Heal Overflow", Permanent duration too. Then either Stabilize or Heal can be cast.


EDIT: Actually, nix Stabilize. When Resuscitate finishes the target is also stabilized. He can also be healed again, once, even if the injuries were attempted to be healed before.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

Thinking on it more, perhaps making it a sustained spell (the magic is literally keeping the body alive by working the organs) until they can get proper medical attention would be more appropriate.

I like this idea.
Spell: Trauma Patch
Drain: Force/2+2
Type: Physical Sustained

Threshold is the number of minutes since death. Success restores one overflow box to target. Normal rules apply thereafter, and if the granted overflow box is filled through any means, additional means become impossible. If for any reason spell becomes unsustained, the overflow box is removed.

[Traul]

So this means you have (Body) turns to stabilize the victim before final death?

[McCummhail]

I used Preserve (+0dv) and Makeover (+0dv) combined with Shape Material [Metahuman corpse] (+3dv) (with medicine active and background to support it) as needed for a 'necromancer' NPC in a game I ran.

He was using it to maintain the bodies of key persons of interest for his plot.

I think in the case of bodies that have taken too much damage, were cut in half, etc the Shape Material [Metahuman corpse] could be used to piece them back together before a magical resuscitation was attempted.

If you are combining the effects of Oxygenate (-1dv), Preserve (+0dv) and Stabilize ((overflow damage) -2dv) or alternately Heal (Damage -2dv) then that is potentially very serious drain.
Spells that include multiple effects in a single spell generally increase the drain by +2 such as with elemental combat spells. (Ex. Firewater has a drain value 2 higher than flamethrower) Unfortunately, Health has no equivalent spells for comparison.

Based on that I would suggest the drain code at ((overflow damage) +2dv) or ((damage in excess of overflow) +2dv) or both have drawbacks. Requiring total damage to be considered makes this a very hefty drain for trolls, but only excess damage would make the drain weak in many cases. Alternately a relatively arbitrary number could be assigned in addition to (force/2).

I like the suggestion of a threshold equaling [damage in excess of overflow] +1/min, +1/2 essence lost.
A street samurai who just barely bit the bullet with 1 over, would have a threshold of 5 (1damage +1time even if immediate +3essense from cyber) which is tough work.
Whereas a mage who got geeked by lets say 6, would have a threshold of 7 (6damage +1time) and be in a tight spot.

I would like to strongly suggest that this spell may only be attempted once. Making the casting time equal to the threshold would be a way to do this.

Possible ways to limit the long-term abuse to this spell could be to have a permanent essence loss associated with it such as .1 essence / point of damage healed.

Resuscitation
Range=touch
Duration=sustained
Threshold = (Damage in excess of overflow) + (1 per minute or part thereof) + (1 per 2 points of essence lost or part thereof)
Effect=This spell pulls a target from the brink of death, resuscitating the body and willing the soul to continue. This spell negates the damage in excess of the overflow monitor and stabilizes the target so long as the spell is maintained.
If the spell is dropped the target immediately dies.
This spell is complicated and requires (Threshold/2) minutes to complete.
Drain=(Total overflow)+2dv

[Orcus Blackweath...]

So this means you have (Body) turns to stabilize the victim before final death?

You are starting with someone that is already dead for x Minutes. When the Doc Wagon mage gets there, he casts this spell, and then the trauma team gets to work.

[darthmord]

A medical article I remember reading a while back stated that that the body doesn't 'die' right away. What kills someone when they are receiving resuscitation is the exposure of oxygen back to the organs that were without oxygen for a period of time. When cells get low on oxygen they go into a form of hibernation where biological processes slow down. This process is also known to occur when people (typically kids) get exceptionally cold to where they succumb to freezing weather or submersion into very cold water only to be revived a couple of hours later with little to no ill effects.

When it happens via trauma, there's also some enzyme released that is activated by oxygen. That enzyme causes cell death. Prevent that reaction from occurring and it becomes a lot easier to revive someone from being 'dead'.

That same article also found that chilling a person to the low 90s degree F extends the time doctors are able to spend to do certain procedures. One in particular was a heart transplant. Chilling the patient into hypothermia made them better able to withstand the procedure and stay alive afterwards.

Medical science is a neat area. Some of the stuff they are doing is almost science fiction.

[X-Kalibur]

Your heart can also be stopped for up to 3 minutes with no ill effect when restarted. After that time frame you risk brain damage due to O2 dep. So honestly, I'd give the spell up to 3 minutes with no additional difficult, and increase the TN by 1 for each 30 seconds after that, also, roll randomly for chances of mental instabilities or logic loss after 3 minutes.

[Wacky]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't I be resuscitated by Doc Wagon™ if my rate is paid up?

Sign--

Wacky

[Traul]

I've always thought the resuscitation clause in the DocWagon contract was meant for Stabilization.

[Stahlseele]

I say let people bring other people back to life.
Doesn't say it heals the damage that killed them before, so guess what happens?
Damage is still there, they die again.

[Cray74]

It almost sounds like it would need to be a combination of health and manipulation. You need to start the heart, get blood flowing to it, keep the veins and arteries open (cardiogenic shock is bad, mmkay?), stop them from bleeding out, make sure the blood is reaching the major organs, maybe have in jumpstart their suprarenals as well, get adrenaline flowing.

Healing spells often do multiple things. Look at what Treat or Heal does to someone who has, say, 9 boxes of physical damage from a torso gun shot: potentially repairs a collapsed lung, ends bleeding, knits bones, seals torn muscle, restores blood loss, etc. (depending on how many boxes are healed).

[Deathmaster35]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't I be resuscitated by Doc Wagon™ if my rate is paid up?

Sign--

Wacky

This being a hold over from past editions, as 4E has no rules for resuscitation for some reason. Once your dead you dead... unless you have Doc Wagon it seems ;)

[Rasumichin]

Health spell, character still has physical damage overflow et al. but is no longer dead (still takes damage every (Body) Combat Turns) unless they receive proper treatment. Must be done within (Body) Combat Turns or it automatically fails; on a glitch the character gets brain damage.

Or they come back wrong in another way...


Which reminds me of another question...
How long after someone's death can cybermancy be applied succesfully?

[Stahlseele]

Cybermancy includes actively killing the person and maybe some others, not Cybering up a dead Body.

[The Monk]

Maybe it should require two steps, a spell to bring the body back to life, and an astral quest to bring the spirit back to the body.

[Stahlseele]

I think it actually DOES require an astral quest to be undertaken . . but i am not too sure about cybermancy . .