Vampires, Radiation, and Regeneration, Oh My Options

[Cray74]

So, I just GM'd a run where the PCs heroically Saved the Day by preventing the Evil Terrorists from detonating a nuke in a major North American city. However, they received a huge dose of radiation in the course of their heroics (definitely lethal without 2070 medical handwavium). There was no question about how to resolve/heal radiation damage to the troll and human PCs, but...

The vampire PC's player is arguing that his regeneration should allow prompt recovery of any physical damage from radiation, just like any other physical damage.

(For the record, the PCs are not radioactive, nor are they lingering in the radioactive environment.)

Is there a canon ruling on regeneration-vs-radiation? Or at least radiation-vs-magic?

If not, how would you handle it? Let him heal promptly with regeneration, or say regeneration doesn't apply to this injury? In either case, what book and quote leads you to that conclusion?

[CanRay]

What if they're Radiation-Toxic Shaman Vampires?

[Paul]

If he wants to make it more complicated, grant his wish. Make him work to recover from this damage by having seek out either specialized treatment, or perhaps he'll need to seek out a magical item, spell, or practitioner.

[Cray74]

f he wants to make it more complicated, grant his wish. Make him work to recover from this damage by having seek out either specialized treatment, or perhaps he'll need to seek out a magical item, spell, or practitioner.

Treatment's a non-issue - the group's employer is picking up the hospital bills.

What if they're Radiation-Toxic Shaman Vampires?

He wasn't a toxic shaman, so that's moot. Do you any information on how radiation affects vampiric regeneration in SR4?

[Paul]

Treatment's a non-issue - the group's employer is picking up the hospital bills.

Huh? Oh I get it, my answer wasn't what you were looking for. No worries.

[Rasumichin]

Radiation damage isn't on the list of things that cannot be regenerated.
So the physical damage inflicted by radiation will be healed normally via the Regeneration power.

However, radiation does not only cause direct damage.
It's effects are handled analogous to pathogens and toxins (cf. Arsenal, p. 167-168).
These effects, which can be much more severe than the raw physical damage, will have to be dealt with seperately.

Wether a vampire's Immunity to Pathogens and Poisons applies in this case seems to be up to the GM's discretion.
I'd probably allow it, given the enormous potential of self-repair vampiric cells must posess with the Regeneration power and whatnot.

Unless there's a seperate form of Immunity to Radiation in Running Wild.
If this has been introduced and vampires do not posess it, this would clearly mean that they are fully affected by the effects of radiation poisoning aside from the normally regenerated physical damage.

[LurkerOutThere]

In the fluff there's material indicating that radiation retards and stops magic, including regenerative abilities. At the time it caused some comparisons to WWtA as it was one of the bes ways to put down shifters.

Personally I would rule that the vampiric abilities do not let them shrug off the radiation, further for him it's even more important that the raditiation be purged as it will continue to affect his magical abilities.

But then again for allowing a vampiric PC and now having them argue things with you, you have essentially brought this upon themselves. I would actually refuse him medical treatment as who wants to get close enough to a vampire to administer them life saving anti-radition therapy (thereby involving a lot of bodily fluids). Additionally it raises the question of whether conventional treatments for radition exposure are going to work on a vampire.

[Paul]

Hey treatment's a non issue here pal! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

as i recall, regeneration doesn't do so good with damage to the nerve tissue. in all likelihood, the radiation penetrated every part of his body. it's probably worse in some places than others, but regardless imo his nerves will have been effected, and are not subject to being repaired by regeneration imo.

[PirateChef]

Nerves can be regenerated the same as anything else. As someone who has had a bit of experience with radiation exposure, it is a bit more complicated than just healing the damage.

Since you state that the PCs aren't radioactive, at all, then a quick shower should fix him right up, as his regeneration will take care of the tissue damage. But if they were exposed to radiation then it has probably gotten deeper than skin level. And that means while his regeneration will fix the symptom (tissue damage) the real problem is that the tissue damage will be ongoing, caused by the radiation that is now at home in his system. Unless he gets rid of all of the cells that were irradiated he will stay radioactive. And that means more ongoing tissue damage. So he will be in a constant state of decaying / regenerating.

If he gets some good anti radiation meds he should be fine, as they will remove the cause and his regeneration should fix up the rest.

[Abschalten]

Hah, it even gets a bit more complicated than that. What type of nuclear bomb was it, and what isotope did it use? That will determine the type of radiation they got poisoned with - alpha, beta, gamma, or neutron. Each has a different specific ionization and is hindered by different materials. (eg., alpha is highly ionizing, but can be stopped with a piece of paper... but if ingested it'll fuck you up. Meanwhile beta can be stopped with a sheet of plastic and is moderately ionizing, but if you put a dense material like lead over it, you'll get a face full of x-rays and end up making the contamination even WORSE!)

Shadowrun radiation rules more or less hit the "I Believe!" button and handwave away the finer details of radiation poisoning and ionization. Getting alpha particles on you from a couple feet away that can be wiped up with a dryer sheet (this is true and actually done in nuclear power plants) is totally different than sitting next to high energy gamma radiation for an hour and a half.

[Straight Razor]

well. i would say that the regeneration will work, but not till you get out of the contaminated environment.

if my GM was being a hard-ass about the radiation damage not being able to regenerated. I would start loping off limbs. when they all grew back i'd start plucking out origins. no more damaged tissue.

[Ravor]

Meh, if regen is able to force cyberware out of your body than there isn't any reason that it can't also force out the radiation as well, of course I'd rule that the process was extremely painful, albeit short lived.

[LurkerOutThere]

I stand by my statement that if you allow vampiric PC's you deserve whatever moronicness your little munchkin monsters try and justify.

[Bugfoxmaster]

I'd agree with those who say the regeneration shouldn't work so well - my understanding (though I don't know if I can find rules in SR4 to support it) is that magic doesn't do very well against radiation. I can see that the physical damage itself might be healed (painfully, as Ravor said), but I still think the radiation would linger and be a painful and annoying poison in the system until the vampire-PC got whatever cleanup treatment the others are getting. Apparently they'll have no trouble getting that, which is odd, since Vampire fluids SEEM like the kind of thing you'd want to stay away from...

[Screaming Eagle]

I know radiation can cause the Magics to get weakened a-la Fluff (I apply background count in affected areas and people, aspected of course, it is powerful, just not the kind of power most can use). This could, theoretically strip him of his magic rating and his powers - now he is just a very sick man (possibally dying) who ALSO has radiation sickness. Even in this event once he is "no longer radioactive" (handwavium chloride in a interveinus solute costing X dollars covered by Y patron) his regen should deal with the residual damage easily. I have no referances aside for Street Magic stating it as an elemental attack with yuck side effects, sorry. Rad damage has VERY little handling in the printed matierial I've seen. If you've dealt with the yuck side effects all that is left is damage.
What type of damage?
BOXES of damage.
The type regeneration works fine on.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I think that even before the vampire got healed, he/she should try a little experiment and bite a geek teenager and see what happens. (what kind of super-hero can you get when you are bit by a radioactive vampire? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) )

[Screaming Eagle]

I think that even before the vampire got healed, he/she should try a little experiment and bite a geek teenager and see what happens. (what kind of super-hero can you get when you are bit by a radioactive vampire? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) )

The world is not yet ready to know...

[Rasumichin]

I would actually refuse him medical treatment as who wants to get close enough to a vampire to administer them life saving anti-radition therapy (thereby involving a lot of bodily fluids).

Apparently they'll have no trouble getting that, which is odd, since Vampire fluids SEEM like the kind of thing you'd want to stay away from...

Strain I is not transmitted via body fluids and every physician qualified enough to treat radiation damage via applied handvavium should know this.

Of course, there is the possibility that the vampire is carrier to another strain of HMHVV, but this can easily be determined by the Hartz-Greenbaum blood series test.

I know radiation can cause the Magics to get weakened a-la Fluff (I apply background count in affected areas and people, aspected of course, it is powerful, just not the kind of power most can use). This could, theoretically strip him of his magic rating and his powers - now he is just a very sick man (possibally dying) who ALSO has radiation sickness.

BGC would weaken his regenerative powers, as it decreases the Magic attribute.
This may slow down regeneration considerably, as long as he stays within the exposed area.

As written by the OP, this is not the case anymore.

I have no referances aside for Street Magic stating it as an elemental attack with yuck side effects, sorry. Rad damage has VERY little handling in the printed matierial I've seen.

There's the Environmental Hazards section in Arsenal i've referenced above.

[Screaming Eagle]

Note to self: re-read arsenal and put Runners in a hot rad zone in the near future...

[Zaranthan]

Radiation works like a disease, but it's fair to rule that a vampire's immunity to pathogens doesn't apply. Let the regeneration heal the physical damage, but not the other side effects. The shaking, vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue, and other such "general illness" symptoms will hit him full force until his body purges the contaminated cells. Possibly harder, since he's an obligate hematophage, which won't carry much hostile material out of his body.

[Cray74]

if my GM was being a hard-ass about the radiation damage not being able to regenerated. I would start loping off limbs. when they all grew back i'd start plucking out origins. no more damaged tissue.

Now that's an entertaining cure to imagine, especially when applied to the damaged organs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[edited attribution]

I stand by my statement that if you allow vampiric PC's you deserve whatever moronicness your little munchkin monsters try and justify.

Generally the player is pretty good about avoiding munchkin issues, which is why I let him play the vampire. He's not only done well in that respect, he's kept it the most professional PC in the group. We simply had a disagreement over which way regeneration would go with respect to radiation, and I didn't have a pressing reason to actually keep the vampire radiation damaged (not even "smack down the munchkin"), so I sought second opinions here.

Unless he gets rid of all of the cells that were irradiated he will stay radioactive.

Not really. They weren't directly exposed to fallout or bomb material (well, one PC was, but he wasn't a vampire). The x-ray flash from the fizzle wouldn't cause the vampire's body to become radioactive, though it'd inflict radiation burns. The neutron burst would cause some activation of his atoms, but the dosage from that would be minor compared to the prompt x-ray and neutron dose, and the now-radioactive isotopes in him would mostly have very short half-lives.

[Screaming Eagle]

"I stand by my statement that if you allow vampiric PC's you deserve whatever moronicness your little munchkin monsters try and justify."

--- wasn't me.... sorry to nit pick but I'd allow a Vampire PC and generally wouldn't assume someone wanting to play one is looking to munchkin. Anyone who thinks its an advantage worth the weaknesses and social problems who takes it to "twink" in one of my games is in for a series of suprises they probably won't survive. Could be fun for me though...

[toturi]

Radiation works like a disease, but it's fair to rule that a vampire's immunity to pathogens doesn't apply. Let the regeneration heal the physical damage, but not the other side effects. The shaking, vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue, and other such "general illness" symptoms will hit him full force until his body purges the contaminated cells. Possibly harder, since he's an obligate hematophage, which won't carry much hostile material out of his body.

How is Radiation treated any different from a disease as far as game mechanics is concerned?

[McAllister]

How is Radiation treated any different from a disease as far as game mechanics is concerned?

Well, Toturi, it isn't, as far as game mechanics are concerned. Bugfoxmaster and others have voiced opinions to the effect of "radiation impedes regeneration/magic in general in the fluff, so it shouldn't be regenerated." While I'm sure this is true in the fluff, my interjection will consist of "when playing the game, we should observe mechanics, and when writing fiction, we should observe fluff."

So, no offense to any of my esteemed fellow dumpshockers, my opinion is that because we're playing the game, mechanics seem to indicate radiation is regenerateable.

One caveat: damage to the brain or spinal cord cannot be regenerated. That's the ONLY mechanical angle I could see being relevant (because it's possible to get irradiated enough to damage the central nervous system), but I'd still have to be convinced of a good reason to handle radiation in a manner other than a pathogen, such as those to which vampires are immune.

Otherwise, looks like the bloodsucker's scot free.

And it's worth repeating Rasumichin's statement. There's no more risk getting vampire blood on your hands than ork blood.