So, I just GM'd a run where the PCs heroically Saved the Day by preventing the Evil Terrorists from detonating a nuke in a major North American city. However, they received a huge dose of radiation in the course of their heroics (definitely lethal without 2070 medical handwavium). There was no question about how to resolve/heal radiation damage to the troll and human PCs, but...

The vampire PC's player is arguing that his regeneration should allow prompt recovery of any physical damage from radiation, just like any other physical damage.

(For the record, the PCs are not radioactive, nor are they lingering in the radioactive environment.)

Is there a canon ruling on regeneration-vs-radiation? Or at least radiation-vs-magic?

If not, how would you handle it? Let him heal promptly with regeneration, or say regeneration doesn't apply to this injury? In either case, what book and quote leads you to that conclusion?

What if they're Radiation-Toxic Shaman Vampires?

If he wants to make it more complicated, grant his wish. Make him work to recover from this damage by having seek out either specialized treatment, or perhaps he'll need to seek out a magical item, spell, or practitioner.

Treatment's a non-issue - the group's employer is picking up the hospital bills.



He wasn't a toxic shaman, so that's moot. Do you any information on how radiation affects vampiric regeneration in SR4?

Huh? Oh I get it, my answer wasn't what you were looking for. No worries.

Radiation damage isn't on the list of things that cannot be regenerated.
So the physical damage inflicted by radiation will be healed normally via the Regeneration power.

However, radiation does not only cause direct damage.
It's effects are handled analogous to pathogens and toxins (cf. Arsenal, p. 167-168).
These effects, which can be much more severe than the raw physical damage, will have to be dealt with seperately.

Wether a vampire's Immunity to Pathogens and Poisons applies in this case seems to be up to the GM's discretion.
I'd probably allow it, given the enormous potential of self-repair vampiric cells must posess with the Regeneration power and whatnot.

Unless there's a seperate form of Immunity to Radiation in Running Wild.
If this has been introduced and vampires do not posess it, this would clearly mean that they are fully affected by the effects of radiation poisoning aside from the normally regenerated physical damage.

In the fluff there's material indicating that radiation retards and stops magic, including regenerative abilities. At the time it caused some comparisons to WWtA as it was one of the bes ways to put down shifters.

Personally I would rule that the vampiric abilities do not let them shrug off the radiation, further for him it's even more important that the raditiation be purged as it will continue to affect his magical abilities.

But then again for allowing a vampiric PC and now having them argue things with you, you have essentially brought this upon themselves. I would actually refuse him medical treatment as who wants to get close enough to a vampire to administer them life saving anti-radition therapy (thereby involving a lot of bodily fluids). Additionally it raises the question of whether conventional treatments for radition exposure are going to work on a vampire.

Hey treatment's a non issue here pal!

as i recall, regeneration doesn't do so good with damage to the nerve tissue. in all likelihood, the radiation penetrated every part of his body. it's probably worse in some places than others, but regardless imo his nerves will have been effected, and are not subject to being repaired by regeneration imo.

Nerves can be regenerated the same as anything else. As someone who has had a bit of experience with radiation exposure, it is a bit more complicated than just healing the damage.

Since you state that the PCs aren't radioactive, at all, then a quick shower should fix him right up, as his regeneration will take care of the tissue damage. But if they were exposed to radiation then it has probably gotten deeper than skin level. And that means while his regeneration will fix the symptom (tissue damage) the real problem is that the tissue damage will be ongoing, caused by the radiation that is now at home in his system. Unless he gets rid of all of the cells that were irradiated he will stay radioactive. And that means more ongoing tissue damage. So he will be in a constant state of decaying / regenerating.

If he gets some good anti radiation meds he should be fine, as they will remove the cause and his regeneration should fix up the rest.

Hah, it even gets a bit more complicated than that. What type of nuclear bomb was it, and what isotope did it use? That will determine the type of radiation they got poisoned with - alpha, beta, gamma, or neutron. Each has a different specific ionization and is hindered by different materials. (eg., alpha is highly ionizing, but can be stopped with a piece of paper... but if ingested it'll fuck you up. Meanwhile beta can be stopped with a sheet of plastic and is moderately ionizing, but if you put a dense material like lead over it, you'll get a face full of x-rays and end up making the contamination even WORSE!)

Shadowrun radiation rules more or less hit the "I Believe!" button and handwave away the finer details of radiation poisoning and ionization. Getting alpha particles on you from a couple feet away that can be wiped up with a dryer sheet (this is true and actually done in nuclear power plants) is totally different than sitting next to high energy gamma radiation for an hour and a half.

well. i would say that the regeneration will work, but not till you get out of the contaminated environment.

if my GM was being a hard-ass about the radiation damage not being able to regenerated. I would start loping off limbs. when they all grew back i'd start plucking out origins. no more damaged tissue.

Meh, if regen is able to force cyberware out of your body than there isn't any reason that it can't also force out the radiation as well, of course I'd rule that the process was extremely painful, albeit short lived.

I stand by my statement that if you allow vampiric PC's you deserve whatever moronicness your little munchkin monsters try and justify.

I'd agree with those who say the regeneration shouldn't work so well - my understanding (though I don't know if I can find rules in SR4 to support it) is that magic doesn't do very well against radiation. I can see that the physical damage itself might be healed (painfully, as Ravor said), but I still think the radiation would linger and be a painful and annoying poison in the system until the vampire-PC got whatever cleanup treatment the others are getting. Apparently they'll have no trouble getting that, which is odd, since Vampire fluids SEEM like the kind of thing you'd want to stay away from...

I know radiation can cause the Magics to get weakened a-la Fluff (I apply background count in affected areas and people, aspected of course, it is powerful, just not the kind of power most can use). This could, theoretically strip him of his magic rating and his powers - now he is just a very sick man (possibally dying) who ALSO has radiation sickness. Even in this event once he is "no longer radioactive" (handwavium chloride in a interveinus solute costing X dollars covered by Y patron) his regen should deal with the residual damage easily. I have no referances aside for Street Magic stating it as an elemental attack with yuck side effects, sorry. Rad damage has VERY little handling in the printed matierial I've seen. If you've dealt with the yuck side effects all that is left is damage.
What type of damage?
BOXES of damage.
The type regeneration works fine on.

I think that even before the vampire got healed, he/she should try a little experiment and bite a geek teenager and see what happens. (what kind of super-hero can you get when you are bit by a radioactive vampire? )

The world is not yet ready to know...

Strain I is not transmitted via body fluids and every physician qualified enough to treat radiation damage via applied handvavium should know this.

Of course, there is the possibility that the vampire is carrier to another strain of HMHVV, but this can easily be determined by the Hartz-Greenbaum blood series test.



BGC would weaken his regenerative powers, as it decreases the Magic attribute.
This may slow down regeneration considerably, as long as he stays within the exposed area.

As written by the OP, this is not the case anymore.



There's the Environmental Hazards section in Arsenal i've referenced above.

Note to self: re-read arsenal and put Runners in a hot rad zone in the near future...

Radiation works like a disease, but it's fair to rule that a vampire's immunity to pathogens doesn't apply. Let the regeneration heal the physical damage, but not the other side effects. The shaking, vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue, and other such "general illness" symptoms will hit him full force until his body purges the contaminated cells. Possibly harder, since he's an obligate hematophage, which won't carry much hostile material out of his body.

Now that's an entertaining cure to imagine, especially when applied to the damaged organs.

[edited attribution]

Generally the player is pretty good about avoiding munchkin issues, which is why I let him play the vampire. He's not only done well in that respect, he's kept it the most professional PC in the group. We simply had a disagreement over which way regeneration would go with respect to radiation, and I didn't have a pressing reason to actually keep the vampire radiation damaged (not even "smack down the munchkin"), so I sought second opinions here.



Not really. They weren't directly exposed to fallout or bomb material (well, one PC was, but he wasn't a vampire). The x-ray flash from the fizzle wouldn't cause the vampire's body to become radioactive, though it'd inflict radiation burns. The neutron burst would cause some activation of his atoms, but the dosage from that would be minor compared to the prompt x-ray and neutron dose, and the now-radioactive isotopes in him would mostly have very short half-lives.

"I stand by my statement that if you allow vampiric PC's you deserve whatever moronicness your little munchkin monsters try and justify."

--- wasn't me.... sorry to nit pick but I'd allow a Vampire PC and generally wouldn't assume someone wanting to play one is looking to munchkin. Anyone who thinks its an advantage worth the weaknesses and social problems who takes it to "twink" in one of my games is in for a series of suprises they probably won't survive. Could be fun for me though...

How is Radiation treated any different from a disease as far as game mechanics is concerned?

Well, Toturi, it isn't, as far as game mechanics are concerned. Bugfoxmaster and others have voiced opinions to the effect of "radiation impedes regeneration/magic in general in the fluff, so it shouldn't be regenerated." While I'm sure this is true in the fluff, my interjection will consist of "when playing the game, we should observe mechanics, and when writing fiction, we should observe fluff."

So, no offense to any of my esteemed fellow dumpshockers, my opinion is that because we're playing the game, mechanics seem to indicate radiation is regenerateable.

One caveat: damage to the brain or spinal cord cannot be regenerated. That's the ONLY mechanical angle I could see being relevant (because it's possible to get irradiated enough to damage the central nervous system), but I'd still have to be convinced of a good reason to handle radiation in a manner other than a pathogen, such as those to which vampires are immune.

Otherwise, looks like the bloodsucker's scot free.

And it's worth repeating Rasumichin's statement. There's no more risk getting vampire blood on your hands than ork blood.

Sorry about that, Screaming Eagle. I fixed the attribution.

I pretty much feel the same as McAllister. Radiation tends to impede magic as far as the fluff is concerned, but in the RAW radiation is treated as a pathogen. I'd just be willing to chalk up the fluffy impeding magic part as background count that occurs naturally around nuclear devices, and allow radiation damage to be regenerated normally, with no other side effects.

After all, damage to the brain or stem may not be able to be regenerated, but theres no precedent for saying that general nerve tissue cant be regenerated, and quickly. A hand that's been removed and grows back through regeneration works just fine.

Regeneration isnt so overpowered anymore either. I dont see a reason there has to be a brain/stem caveat in there just so runners can have a chance to kill a regenerating creature off for good. All they have to do now is shoot him good enough that the regeneration test fails to bring them back to an "alive" position on their health track and they stay dead.

Depends on the ammount of irradiation and the vampire's Magic.

If the power is lower than Magicx2, he gets away scot free.

If it's higher, he will have to deal with the secondary effects to full extend, but will heal the physical damage inflicted by radiation poisoning with his Regeneration power.

Unless there's an Immunity to Radiation in Running Wild, which would mean that radiation poisoning is handled by a seperate Immunity that vampires don't posess.



Of course, a vampire could still be a carrier for strains transmitted by bodily fluids, especially if he has fed on ghouls and the like in the past or only has lived in close proximity to them (which may happen more or less frequently, depending on the local Infected community).
Of course, vampires who want to rely on partially draining willing Essence donors and otherwise interacting more or less normally with metahuman society will avoid this like the plague.
In other cases, chances of being a carrier may be significantly increased compared to the rest of the population.

In any case, there's very easy and readily available ways to test for this.

In spite of this, RC states that it is harder for Infected of any kind to find medical assistance (which may, in the case of Strain I Infected, be attributed to social stigma), doubling the interval for the Availability test.
Note that the rules say that it's harder, not that it's impossible.
Practically all of the knee-jerk reactions to Infected PCs are handled by the rules in RC in a pretty sensible and plausible way (except for the ridiculous contagency of HMHVV III, of course, but that's another can of worms).
It's all in the manual, so take it easy.

However, this all seems to be completely irrelevant in the case discussed here, as this seems to have been taken care of by some NPC already.

No idea on radiation (or much else) in 4th ed. but Bug City contains some reasonably extensive rules for radiation based on quantity of rads of exposure, both prolonged and direct.
Without delving into details, the text states that "Neither medicine nor magic can, in 2056, free the body from radiation itself."

Perhaps you could house rule that exposure to radiation makes a vampire character's skin sparkle. :)

If for some god forsaken reason I played a vampire, and the GM did something to me that caused my skin to sparkle, I think I would make my character suicide.

When the act of seppeku requires a frisbee made from wood, it's kind of hard to fold it in half so that you can shove it down your throat.

No worries, I'm now trying to con one of my players into being a vampire, oh the stories I'll get to tell....

Alot of whether regn etc. works under weird situations is not clearly spelled out. As far as the GAME is conserned "Radiation damage" is damage and if the sickness is listed under pathogens or diseases (I don't have the books at hand) the Vamp had hardended armour againt it at twice his magic rating, Regn works unless there are other factors involved (background count etc.). However we can find out by looking on teh Wiki or any number of other places enough rads IS nervous system damage and if it boils thier brains it (by RAW) DOESN'T work.

So how much rads does it take to "boil the brain"? Well since I don't expect either my players or GM's to have a background in medicine and nuclear physics the answer is - whenever the GM says it is and feels it fits for the story.
For referance I have a rough understanding of both (from general interest and a background in biology) and the answer is : enough to kill a vampire has "killed" everyone else some time prior. Everyone can easily still be walking and talking, but they are all dead.

In either case this is a generic Critter power we are discussing and although ALL regeneration works the same by the book the book also explains theat not all monsters are created equal and we, the poor shmoes playing the game, should feel free to "play with it".
Me? I like the image of a small group of Vampires living at the edges of a radiative area where Humans rarely go, who only venture out to feed. The player manage to get roped in though a street doc contact (the charitable sort) who has a series of canser victims who all have been essence drained a few points. He never would have noticed but one of the victims could have been saved by a cyberimplant she rejected due to low essence.
Later (a fair amount of investigation and side plats, twists turns and an assasination attempt later) its a running fire fight, chased by enraged vampires trying to get out of the rad zone before their rad warning badges go all the way black.
Good times... into the roladex that goes...

Some of what's going on here is the normal knee-jerk reaction that many Dumpshockers have -- just nerf it. If it's powerful, the player is to be blamed for having it, and any unconventional use he attempts to make of it is almost automatically shut down.

To my mind, if a player has something, he's paid the price for it. That means he deserves to have it and the advantages that it entails. Vampires are incredibly expensive, and I'm not even convinced that the advantages they gain are worth so many points. A huge chunk of the points they pay goes into regeneration. To tell them, after the fact, that you're creating a new house rule to weaken regeneration -- that seems a bit cruel doesn't it? They bought the vampire race after reading up on it, they knew what radiation did and didn't do. And now you suddenly create a new thing that it doesn't do, just based on random fiat? That violates the GM's core fiduciary duty to play fair IMO. If someone is going to be faced with a disadvantage, there should be some kind of fair warning, not an arbitrary ruling that's contrary to the RAW.

I'm not talking to anyone in particular btw, just responding to the general "just nerf it" sentiment sprinkled throughout this thread.

Note: I'm ignoring all fluff for this post and simply focusing on mechanics.

The critter power deals with boxes of damage and may heal the boxes very quickly. The same could be done through a Heal spell or First Aid.

In addition to the physical damage caused, there are secondary effects which will not be resolved by Regeneration. Until the character has reduced the Power to 0, he will continue to suffer from the negative effects.

As Radiation is not listed as a Disease or Toxin, the Immunity to Pathogens and Toxins for a Vampire does not apply. This last can be applied differently based on the reading of the material--it is netiher specifically mentioned, nor excluded.

Must....resist....making...new....signature!

Depends.
They do get a whole bunch of stat increases and several strong critter powers.
If your concept includes raising these attributes, it may well be worth about 80 of the 100 points and then you get the powers on top of that.
Of course, you also get a selection of severe drawbacks at the same time.

I think that vampires are one of the stronger options in RC if built carefully.
Of course, if a race costs so many points, there's always the chance of coming up with a crippled, overspecialized, non-viable character and if you don't play smart, the drawbacks of being Infected will get you into severe trouble.
But for a halfway clever player, they're a very good choice mechanically if they want to build, for example, a Charisma-based mage able to stand his ground in combat.
And you can even make them perform decent out of chargen, unlike nosferatu, who will take some karma until they reach their full potential.

There's certainly much more broken options in SR4, both in the sense of overpowered and gimped.

Mechanically, i'm totally fine with vampires.
They're a good representation of what a bloodsucker in SR should be like and will fit in with most groups without causing power issues.

As far as the flavor is concerned, it may be a different issue based on personal taste.
Aesthetically, we are confronted with the problem that many gamers are so extremely familliar with popcultural stereotypes that they will reject any attempts at rendering vampires as trite and overdone.
This holds doubly true under the current hype regarding sparkly vampire romance.
Some very vocal opponents of Infected PCs have also turned out to have a GM girlfriend inclined towards the Mary Sue-ish in their group and base their judgement entirely on such personal rivalries, some are vary of the stylistic implications and -often rightfully- dread an angsty "cursed with awesome" portrayal of the vampire or, nowadays more rarely, a devolvement into splatter mannerisms.

I'd be reluctant to play a vampire in a group i'm unfammiliar with, but if given the chance, i'd really enjoy the possibility to attempt a take at the genre that doesn't make people roll their eyes.

I hate to be the first fanboy to say it, but I like Louis from Interview with the Vampire. Not necessarily happy with what he was, but OK with it.

I liked Blacula meets Black Dracula in that Simpsons episode.

Regarding Louis :
Yeah, he actually was much less angsty about it than geek culture wants to make one believe nowadays, especially in the movie.
In fact, most of my not-so-nerdy friends are quite fond of the film.

The problem is more in the popcultural backlash after Rice's success than in the original works.

<Threadjack>
I just finished a re-read of the book about two weeks ago. He wasnt angsty about it at all, he just had problems with the way Lestat wanted him to do it("the vampire way")
</threadjack>

Vampires like that would be somewhat NOT cliche, and thus have the capability to provide entertainment within the game.

1. Damage to the brain or spinal cord cannot be regenerated.
2. Cancer is not a disease. (cancer is literally the cells own 'regeneration' power gone out of control).

I vote that your munchkin gets brain cancer! Better yet the vampire dies as it becomes one monstrous cancerous lesion.

Really if you let a player pick vampire you deserve anything you get.

Seriously though, not all damage from radiation will be to the body at large, some of it will affect the critical central nervous tissue. So you may want to go with a portion of the damage is unregeneratable.

Also given vampires and their weird link w/ essence and magic... maybe suffer some loss of essence (and corresponding magic).

Considering how the regeneration works and how radiation damage works, no the regeneration shouldn't help him. He would need a real doctor. Now considering prejudice and the like it may be a bit harder to find a doctor with that kind of expertise and equipment willing to work on a vampire without some major compensation. If he has any complaints just say what falconer said above and add thats what radiation does so your outta luck buddy.

Right.
It would probably make sense that a fraction of the physical damage cannot be regenerated.
But then, the whole restriction about Regeneration not affecting nervous tissue is entirely nonsensical.
Remember the above example about regrowing limbs? These include nervous tissue.
As does most of the body.
Frankly, this whole exception is an unneccessary holdover from previous editions and one might argue that it should be ignored entirely under SR4's greatly improved Regeneration rules, where it isn't needed anymore.
The whole CNS thing was a failed attempt at balancing Regeneration, the new mechanic for the power works fine without it.



A. Radiation poisoning involves more than cancer.
B. Radiation poisoning is handled like a disease under SR4 rules.

Wether this means that Immunity to Pathogens and Poisons affects it is up to the GM.
Probably came up at some point upthread...



It may have been mentioned previously, but one effect of radiation poisoning is physical damage.
Which is mundane in nature and therefore can be regenerated, as long as it does not affect nervous tissue (unless one houserules that part).



It's all there in the manual.
The intervalls for finding a doctor are doubled, that's all.
Of course, this may increase the incentive to spend money on speeding up the availability test, which may lead to an effectively more expensive treatment.



"You deserve it for being a stupid munchkin. It was a mistake that i admitted your stupid character and now i'm trying to fix it by making arbitrary judgements."
Yeah, right.
That's exactly how every GM should handle issues at his table.

For those who think Vampire (Regn et all) is "broken" or "overpowered" and that we should be kneecapping this guy for this reason:
Why? Yes the Vampire "race" is a monster for thier powers but they payed alot for these tricks.
Things people forget past the point cost:
the Allergy to Sunlight IS NOT TRIVIAL. It will F*** you up. During the summer the days are longer then the nights and this means you can do nothing out of doors most of the time and even indoors you need to avoid all windows and most doors. You will have trouble with: long distance travel, banking and store hours, any run schedualed in any part during the day or that MAY take longer then one night and almost all regular face to face human interaction.
I've had people point out alleviate allergy gets past this... ok, so now you are either using your sustaining focus to prevent fatal sunburn or are at -2 to everthing. In addition to this you are no longer regenerating. In addition to this I would have you sunburn easily and badly... no mechanical penalties, but the sun still hates you and wants you to die. Oh and heaven help you if you find yourself up against a mage at high noon, dispelling test anyone?

Allergy Wood, shrugged off as rare in the ultra-tech setting it is none the less easy to get ones hands on. Lumber is most likely still a common contruction material in both older homes and nicer buildings and would be used in some amount as a "classy" surfacing material, same as today. There will be places where you cannot walk barefoot, crawl apon or touch the walls, and how do you tell the diffence from the real stuff and the fake untill its too late chummer? And don't forget the fact that this material can very easily be weaponised by your enemies, you know, all those people who think your "kind" need to die for the good of us all?
Lastly as mentioned the social penalties: even medical professionals who know you are not immediatly dangerous for infection often refuse to treat you (double avalaiblity numbers). What do you think the average know-less-man in the streets reaction is going to be? Hugs and kisses? No, Vampirism (and the rest of the HMHVV strains) is the new Terror disease, what romatasism we have attached to it in our culture is probably greatly redused. Yes you will be able to work past this with individuals over time with the use of some good social skills and RP but you still have Bubonic Super AIDS and need to eat people to live. This is not the kind of thing people forget. Yes there will be a small number of near worshipers who think you are the new (insert name of your least fav angsy vamp or the future eqivalent here) but there will be a greater number of persons activly hostile to you and your kind, I can EASILY see a magical group or 2 founded to this purpose.

It certainly is not trivial. The PCs responded to the bomb threat during the day. The vampire was crippled throughout the run - always hiding in vehicles, always suffering penalties, etc. They might not have been dosed with radiation at all if the vampire had been able to contribute more usefully. After being virtually a passenger for the whole run, he ended it by being dosed with lethal levels of radiation.

Emphasis mine.... for this alone I'd have him shrug it off easily and quickly while the rest of them slowly recover from horrific burns.
"Whats a'matter team? It's only a little radiation burning. What? Why is everyone looking at me like that? Seriously guys put the pencils away. Guys? GUYS!!"
Fade to black...
Later the Vampire is far more sencitive to the poor mortals weaknesses.

I think I can agree with this. He was screwed enough during the run, and ended up screwing everyone else. Give him a "free bone" and let him regenerate.

What's a dystopian cyberpunk future without a little party conflict?

Ya, thats not what I said. What I said was that if he complains. In this instance there would be no room for it because it doesn't apply to the situation but if someone complains about something and it slows everything down then yes a "please stop because your annoying everyone else" or a more dickish "gtfo" may be needed. I do not endorse the gtfo but I have seen situations where it was needed or I would have taken a 2x4 upside their head. Best part, room full of people not a single witness. God that guy could get annoying...

Notably more boring.
Obey the rule of awesome.
It will make you awesome.

Actually my original concern was one of setting standards and guidelines. The OP stated that the teams employer was benevolently taking care of their radiation cure, the vampire said "No my powers take care of that" there is some ambiguity on the matter depending on how much radition was actually taken, but I would tell the player. "No it doesnt" that will not encourage the player to treat radiation lightly in the future.

Further yes I do believe it is foolish to allow vampires in games as by necissity they will either be amazing or they will hobble the rest of the team and force them to work around the vampire. This coupled with the players belief that they should be effectively immune to radition strikes me that this vampire in particular is a munchkin. As always YMMV.

I agree with this fully. In my games, Regeneration can heal any form of damage, magical, nervous, or otherwise (exception being Drain, because Drain specifically cannot be healed by magical means, & Regeneration is a paranormal ability).

Regeneration is an excellent ability, but is not an I WINZ button. It greatly increases survival rates & reduces downtime, but is only a 25 BP advantage, or thereabouts. The Heal spell can do much the same thing - it's use is a bit more restricted & takes an action, but can be used on others as well & is significantly cheaper.


Not entirely correct. Radiation "uses the same mechanics given for pathogens".

This does not mean that it is indeed a Pathogen, and given that no other effect providing Pathogen or Toxin resistance applies to radiation, & radiation has several protective systems specifically for it, I would strongly argue that Rules as Written, a vampire's Immunity does not apply.