Slaughter ahappening, 15 notierity on the 2nd run? Options

[Mäx]

LOL!
Shadowrun teacher: "So kids, what have we learned today after watching the security tapes of this FUBAR run?"
Class: "That a high body count is bad for business and your life Mrs. Anderson."
Shadowrun teacher: "Good, good! And what else?"
Class: "Never trust high yield explosives to a meta-human who can't count his toes."
Shadowrun teacher: "Great! Class dismissed!"

That hilarious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Twilights_Herald]

I'll agree with this, as you should probably treat the whole thing as one event. Also, with so much carnage, the heat should be on the players unless someone cast sterilize at the scene of the crime.

True, this. The Notoriety rules aren't really meant to be about short term consequences (that's left entirely up to the GM) but what happens if they make it out alive. If the characters realize just how badly they screwed this up, the follow-up evading justice should give them plenty of opportunities to earn Street Cred to buy 2-3 notoriety off (don't insult your contacts by looking to them for help, don't kill anyone even if it would be in your interest, try to figure out who your Johnson is and save his and your fixer's hoop without being asked.)

As for retribution, yeah, I'd say that they've crossed the line. The cops are going to pull out all the stops to find them, so any SINners likely have a week at most before they're upgraded to 'criminal' Every cop, rent-a-cop, and corporate security officer in the city has their picture. Whatever they're going to try to do to salvage their rep, they need to move fast because they've only got two or three days before they're going to have to try to make it to another city. And remember, without contacts that's a lot harder than it sounds.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ok, I've made enough jokes of this. But I'll add my two nuyens to the pot. 15/25 notoriety means "please make new characters." 3 to 5 notoriety points seem more appropriate, it would be high enough to give them bad times and a few points on public awareness.

[Ravor]

Personally I think you way overreacted, if the "innocents" were living next to a warehouse then they are probably poor and the powers that be are more concerned with having to rebuild the fragging building.

The real question is, did blowing the warehouse actually have a valid reason such as allowing them to escape or was it just a sick and twisted "frag you"?

[GM Lich]

Wow I wasn't expecting so much response to this thread. I will my best to respond to the masses of questions.
The notoriety thing apparently I misunderstood, the KEYWORD can ONLY happen once. So I would agree as an inexperienced gm I sped read the rules. When one of the more experienced players pointed out we most likely earned some notoriety, I didnt realize this stat, so I skimed it and said 15. Like most of the posters who actually know the rules, that is ridiculous and a bad call on my part.

Now for responders

EDIT2 - Isn't demolitions logic based?

I probably didn't give you the full story. The teams offensive mage, was also our demolitions specalist. When they were getting away the Mage realized he had his explosives set up and everything still at the warehouse, the dwarf thought it would be a brilliant idea to detonate the warehouse, for the lols. So he steals the denotator and presses the button
(Unless your to tell me pressing the button requires a logic test (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )
I think I like your idea of the avenger however, I have thought of a far more brilliant idea

To me this sounds like an OOC communication issue.

Are you having fun? If the answer is yes then don't do anything different. If the answer is no, then it's time to take a look at how things are working.

Remember this as the GM you do agree to help everyone else have fun, but not at the expense of you having no fun at all. (Some sacrifice comes with the job omae, it's a dirty game but don't hate the players right?) Sit down and talk to your players. Explain what you see-I'd recommend not being a dick about it, since most people when confroted with their own douche-bag-ness will deny, deny, deny and deny. Especially if it happens in scenario they feel the need to save face.

When I hit this wall, I ask questions. I put the burden on them. "Hey guys before we game tonight I want to make sure we're all having fun, so I have a few questions." Remember with out a group it's an MMORPG, and I'm sure we can all agree that's second best.

After asking a few questions let it drop. "Well you guys did this, and the way I see it in the real world this would happen. What do you think would happen?" Gauge their response, and go from there.

Indeed all the players had a blast, but I don't want them playing this like gta where slaughter is simple, and its basically a contest to see how long one can hold up vs. the world. Thanks for the advice I will probaly do so. I will telll them the way I see it

I don't know, this seems like a good introduction to the shadows to me.....

There are two paths to the team. One via the Johnson, the other direct.

The Johnson is probably screwed. When they watch the surveillance video they should be able put together the list of who would be interested in this project and who would have had the right amount of information. At which point Mr. Johnson is likely to get a visit. He'll roll over on the fixer. Who will give up the team.

So even if the players did a perfectly clean job and left nothing behind that leads to them, they are likely going to get rolled up anyhow. And it's likely that there is a path that leads right to them because they sound sloppy. So then they roll over on the fixer.

So if I were the fixer I'd probably want to get someone good to waste the Johnson and the team, then skip town for a few weeks/months and have my other contacts see if anyone from the Joint Terrorism Strike Force starts asking for me by name. Or be the informer who gets to walk after he turns in the Johnson and the team.

So if I was the team I'd waste the fixer ASAP, as the Johnson probably doesn't have nearly as much info on you as the fixer does. Then kill the Johnson.

Of course, if I was the Johnson I'd want the team dead. I probably wouldn't think to go after the fixer.

And with the large anonymous reward, all their "buddies" in town will want to turn the players into the feds.

See, this is a great introduction to the Shadows.

Intresting idea sounds a bit cruel, but I like it.

LOL!
Shadowrun teacher: "So kids, what have we learned today after watching the security tapes of this FUBAR run?"
Class: "That a high body count is bad for business and your life Mrs. Anderson."
Shadowrun teacher: "Good, good! And what else?"
Class: "Never trust high yield explosives to a meta-human who can't count his toes."
Shadowrun teacher: "Great! Class dismissed!"

LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Yeah, this sounds like these guys played a few too many video games.

Yep, For most this is their first RPG

True, this. The Notoriety rules aren't really meant to be about short term consequences (that's left entirely up to the GM) but what happens if they make it out alive. If the characters realize just how badly they screwed this up, the follow-up evading justice should give them plenty of opportunities to earn Street Cred to buy 2-3 notoriety off (don't insult your contacts by looking to them for help, don't kill anyone even if it would be in your interest, try to figure out who your Johnson is and save his and your fixer's hoop without being asked.)

As for retribution, yeah, I'd say that they've crossed the line. The cops are going to pull out all the stops to find them, so any SINners likely have a week at most before they're upgraded to 'criminal' Every cop, rent-a-cop, and corporate security officer in the city has their picture. Whatever they're going to try to do to salvage their rep, they need to move fast because they've only got two or three days before they're going to have to try to make it to another city. And remember, without contacts that's a lot harder than it sounds.

Hmm, Sounds like a good adventure by itself. Hmmm.

The real question is, did blowing the warehouse actually have a valid reason such as allowing them to escape or was it just a sick and twisted "frag you"?

More like KILL SOME More.

[Paul]

The hard part about fun is it's subjective. Leading your players to the things you see as fun can be fun, or it can be skull smashing boring, and worse hard. By prepping them for what to expect, when it happens they have no one to blame but themselves.

"I told you that I'd start having the Star examine murders you've committed a little more closely, so yeah I feel justified in giving you the Hunted Flaw-minus the points in exchange. Now let's see how smart you are, and whether you can escape the long arm of the law or not!"

[kzt]

Follow up depends on what you want to happen and what the players do. There is nothing wrong with running a Quake style game of SR, but if that not what you want you have a few options.

You could retrocon out the whole event as a bad dream and tell them not to do it again. You could have "rocks fall, you die" and make new characters. Or you could keep going.

If they see the news dominated with the story, and pictures of the team (as they probably didn't wipe all the surveillance videos) with the wanted AR posters appearing every 5 minute, what do they do?

Are you willing to kill/imprison the characters? Or do you really not want to do that?

[Erebus]

Simple: those guys have stepped from the category of "shadowrunners" and straight into the category of "wanted terrorists". Appropriate SWAT, FBI, Joint Counter-Terrorism and Commando Strike Team responses will follow. No shadowrunner, contact or fixer will touch them, and I don't give them more than a week on the run.

Exactly.

If this was a AA or AAA Corp.... they would be on the war-prowl for the runners. Its bad for business, its bad for morale...
If the corp has the pull to be a multi-national and have extraterritoriality, they wouldn't stop until they had those responsible.
I would suspect most corps treat any security guard killing exactly how most governments deal with those who kill policemen. Very very harshly.

[Cardul]

Exactly.

If this was a AA or AAA Corp.... they would be on the war-prowl for the runners. Its bad for business, its bad for morale...
If the corp has the pull to be a multi-national and have extraterritoriality, they wouldn't stop until they had those responsible.
I would suspect most corps treat any security guard killing exactly how most governments deal with those who kill policemen. Very very harshly.

Super-squirt with DMSO and hallucinogens for the win!
Knock-out gas grenades!
Stick-n-shock, stun batons, and tasers!

I always handled it that the corp-sec is less likely to go really nasty after you
if they know they are not going to be killed...If they are pretty sure they
are going to die(like they would be with these guys?) expect the Red Samurai-equivalents
en route, and a HTRT loaded for bear...Maybe even with a Striker equivalent gunning
for your rigger...

[AndyZ]

Yep, For most this is their first RPG

I think this explains your problems better than anything else, Lich. It's entirely possible that the group just doesn't know how the game should be run, and so they're just fishing for ways to play.

While everyone else explains how dark and dreary everything is, I have another suggestion. Really, it should compliment everything here. You're more than welcome not to use it as it'll take a strong stomach. I can't guarantee it's the best idea for your group, but I didn't see anyone else mention it.

Your group should pick up notoriety, definitely, and folks will start coming after them. However, that also means that some folks will pick up attention, meaning the truly twisted freaks out there.

First, design a terrorist group that stands for something absolutely disgusting and/or bigoted, with the kind of leader who could run his own cult, and probably does and is. Then paint the PCs into a corner, and as they run out of grenades and things look bleak, they get saved by the terrorists. They then speak with the leader, who should seem insane, and get sent on even worse runs like bombing orphanages and kidnapping children to stitch bombs into them to make them blow up their families.

Either your players will have a lot of fun, or they'll refuse to do these twisted things and work on destroying this terrorist cult. If they have fun with it, I feel so sorry for you as a GM, but then again I can't really see that happening. Maybe they'll try it for a few evil runs until they start to realize how nasty it is, but eventually realize they need to take it down after seeing the repercussions of their actions. If they start feeling sick and either want to quit or destroy the cult, maybe you can have another Johnson hire them to help work on destroying the cult.

As new people, this plan has the possibility to backfire and convince the players that all Shadowrun is about twisted terrorist groups. If someone wants to quit the game, make sure you talk to them and find out if they'd rather play a less degenerate setting.

Destroying the cult could give the group a second chance, but it would likely be probationary, where their actions are monitored more closely or conditions are set for payment.

If a rut should form where the PCs don't like the cult but can't figure out how to deal with it, have an NPC suggest the idea of blowing them all sky high. One of them should have a parent, sibling or some kind of contact or something, and if all else fails, the Johnson may offer a second chance if they destroy the place.


Not knowing your group, it's impossible to tell from this side of the screen how your players would react to this idea. If you simply punish them when they don't realize they're messing up, though, they're only going to get frustrated. If you feel the cult idea is too extreme, having an NPC Shadowrunner save them and take them under his/her wing should work to a degree if they're willing to listen to him/her.

Apologies if the idea is too crazy for you to use, but sometimes the RP equivalent to reverse psychology can work wonders.

[Cardul]

*looks up at AndyZ's post*

Kidnaping children to stitch bombs in them...*scribbles notes*
Yes..I like that idea....I will remember it...

[kzt]

"I just want my phone call."

[Stahlseele]

*looks up at AndyZ's post*

Kidnaping children to stitch bombs in them...*scribbles notes*
Yes..I like that idea....I will remember it...

How did YOU not stumble upon this up until now? O.o

[Chrysalis]

Maybe I should run Chrome Berets, the old CP2020 adventure for you. Small island, military advisors and not many international witnesses.

Remember kids, slaughter is only an s away from laughter.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Remember kids, slaughter is only an s away from laughter.

LOL! I'm totally stealing that as the catch phrase from a future NPC...

[Stahlseele]

It's a slight rewording of:
"You can't spell/say slaughter without laughter"

[StealthSigma]

Maybe I should run Chrome Berets, the old CP2020 adventure for you. Small island, military advisors and not many international witnesses.

Remember kids, slaughter is only an s away from laughter.

And guts* is part of slaughter.

*Guts in this case refers to internal organs, blood, and gore not the guts colloquialism which stands for courage.

[InfinityzeN]

Maybe I should run Chrome Berets, the old CP2020 adventure for you. Small island, military advisors and not many international witnesses.

Remember kids, slaughter is only an s away from laughter.

One of my favs from back in the day was Chrome Berets.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Am I the only one who doesn't have that much of a problem with the room full of researchers, guards, and turrets??

It had 6 guards and turrets, depending on the teams capabilities grenades very well could have been the best plan. The team I currently roll with has a heap of technomancers, so I suspect we'd hack the turrets and have them waste the guards. And then maybe stunball the researchers. But if you don't have stunball what do you do, intimidate them and tie them up?? And what hope for the best once they begin investigating this. I can see a lot of teams who act like hardened criminals making the decision to kill them. I'm not big into torture and unnecessary death so I'd try a different method if I was holding the reigns. But hey everyone rolls differently.

Now if there was the alternate route past the turrets etc, hey just avoid them. If you build the warehouse like a dungeon with guards in front of the boss room don't be surprised if the guard room gets fireballed.

Now the demolitions in the end doesn't seem "Evil" notoriety, just wasteful and dumb.(but hey he was a 1 logic type) But if the explosives were laid out so they would killl neighbors (why in gods name did they place explosives anyways) I guess it falls into the notoriety category.

[Paul]

Why exactly would someone mount gun turrets in a room where things could get damaged, especially expensive things? And even if they did, wouldn't they use less than lethal munitions?

Man I want to choke the whole pink mohawk crowd out. It will never go away, but I can hope!

[Stahlseele]

We are the PUNK in Cyberpunk.

[Paul]

I stand by my previous statement, I can't wait for the punk crowd to get kicked to the curb. Hopefully never to return.

[Mäx]

I stand by my previous statement, I can't wait for the punk crowd to get kicked to the curb. Hopefully never to return.

Then it would only be Cyber (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Why exactly would someone mount gun turrets in a room where things could get damaged, especially expensive things? And even if they did, wouldn't they use less than lethal munitions?

Man I want to choke the whole pink mohawk crowd out. It will never go away, but I can hope!

Yeah! All Shadowrunners should be act like Solid Snake and Sam Fisher.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Yeah! All Shadowrunners should be act like Solid Snake and Sam Fisher.

Hiding under a card box in the middle of nowhere? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)