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> EMP's in Shadowrun, *fzzt*
k1tsune
post Jan 28 2004, 09:53 PM
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What sort of EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse, for the seriously acronym challenged) generators are available in Shadowrun?
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Lindt
post Jan 28 2004, 09:55 PM
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none presently. And seeing as most things are opticly powered (hey, lets break from realism here, even optical has normal chips behind it) it wont do jack.
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Cray74
post Jan 28 2004, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (k1tsune)
What sort of EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse, for the seriously acronym challenged) generators are available in Shadowrun?

You can probably build yourself some interesting toys from plans off the Matrix. The generalities of non-nuclear EMP bombs are available on the internet today.

However, they won't do much. Shadowrun makes the point in the main book that chips are most optical and immune to EMP.
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kevyn668
post Jan 28 2004, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE
Cray74 Posted on Jan 28 2004, 09:56 PM
  QUOTE (k1tsune)
What sort of EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse, for the seriously acronym challenged) generators are available in Shadowrun? 


You can probably build yourself some interesting toys from plans off the Matrix. The generalities of non-nuclear EMP bombs are available on the internet today.



Make sure to say "hi" to the nice folks at Homeland Security! :D
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k1tsune
post Jan 28 2004, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (kevyn668)
Make sure to say "hi" to the nice folks at Homeland Security! :D

Yeah. They've been after me ever since I started carrying around my Almanac.
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Adarael
post Jan 28 2004, 10:07 PM
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Y'all forgot one. 'Zapper' rockets, from Rigger 3.

That's actually a canon EMP wave weapon.
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sable twilight
post Jan 28 2004, 10:08 PM
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Hi homeland security

Except cyberware, that stuff can be damaged with an electrical surge. So should it not also be susceptible to EMP?
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kevyn668
post Jan 28 2004, 10:10 PM
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QUOTE
k1tsune Posted on Jan 28 2004, 10:05 PM
  QUOTE (kevyn668)
Make sure to say "hi" to the nice folks at Homeland Security! 


Yeah. They've been after me ever since I started carrying around my Almanac. 


And rightly so. :P
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Nath
post Jan 28 2004, 10:14 PM
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Optical chips themselves would be immune to EMP. Their electric alimentation wouldn't. As for generating the EMP, the alternative to nuclear explosion is, to stay simple, a highly-charged radar antenna (which unlike the nuclear weapon, is directional). I don't know the detail, but I guess if they can pack a lightly destructive laser in a pistol, EMP should be feasible. If SR was coherent :grinbig:

EDIT: Just remembered, there's the ANDREWS in Rigger 3, requiring a nuclear power plant.
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PuyallupSquatter
post Jan 28 2004, 10:15 PM
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Some sort of future-tech EMP-style weapon would make a great prototype heist, tho. Would sonics work against optical chips? Even if not, a good resonate frequency could do some *nasty* stuff to all that metal in a guys body... I can only imagine the headache that would happen if your headware started vibrating really, really hard...

If all else fails, Quantam mechanics, general relativeity theory, string theroy, Enigmatic Misunderstood Future Alien Technology or Because I Said So are all good GM explinations for science.

I really should read those issues of Discover I get more :P

I did hear that Homeland Security's next target are Trekkies trying to modify their garage door openers into working phasers. The Prime Directive is concidered terrorist doctorine by the current administration, yaknow. :D
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k1tsune
post Jan 28 2004, 10:20 PM
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I'm trying to get ideas for something, but I don't want to say too much because I don't trust my players not to read it.
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John Campbell
post Jan 28 2004, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
EDIT: Just remembered, there's the ANDREWS in Rigger 3, requiring a nuclear power plant.

ANDREWS isn't an EMP device. It's a particle-beam weapon, fires a stream of high-energy charged particles.

They have 'em in Battletech, too, but there they're called "PPCs".
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Jason Farlander
post Jan 28 2004, 10:56 PM
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I would imagine that few people bother with EMP weapons because it is so very easy to shield electronics against it (a simple Faraday cage will do the trick, and there are, of course, other means as well).

As for all electronics being "optically based"... WTF does that even mean? How could that possibly work? I can see how all data storage might be optical... but you can't provide power to something with a beam of light.... thats just silly.
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Nath
post Jan 28 2004, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (John Campbell)
ANDREWS isn't an EMP device. It's a particle-beam weapon, fires a stream of high-energy charged particles.

AFAIK, if the said charged particle are electrons, when the beam will hit a solid target, there will be EMP. If they are protons, I don't know, but I wouldn't surprised if it messed up as well with electronic systems.

QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
As for all electronics being "optically based"... WTF does that even mean? How could that possibly work? I can see how all data storage might be optical... but you can't provide power to something with a beam of light.... thats just silly.

The use of rhodopsine in electronic is explained in Shadowtech. To sum up, it's a molecule that change it's state when hit by a laser powerful enough, act as a filter if the laser is not powerful enough, and is stable enough to store information. Such laser-based technology are more precise than magnetic fields used in nowadays storage.
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Jason Farlander
post Jan 28 2004, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
The use of rhodopsine in electronic is explained in Shadowtech. To sum up, it's a molecule that change it's state when hit by a laser powerful enough, act as a filter if the laser is not powerful enough, and is stable enough to store information. Such laser-based technology are more precise than magnetic fields used in nowadays storage.


Right... and I did say that optical data storage makes sense to me... we use optical data storage even now in the form of cd-rws and dvd+/-rws It even makes sense as a means of controling data flow. What does NOT make sense is this:

QUOTE (Lindt)
none presently. And seeing as most things are opticly powered (hey, lets break from realism here, even optical has normal chips behind it) it wont do jack.


I've seen similar statements in other threads... The bottom line is that you can't "power" something via optics. You can't make a motor run no matter how many lasers and rhodopsin switches you have available to you unless you also provide electrical power to that motor. Even the lasers themselves would require electrical input.



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Rev
post Jan 28 2004, 11:46 PM
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Its like in Neal Stephensons book "Cryptonomicon". At one point some people set off an emp frying a certain computer and everything around them, including automobile computers. The owner of one computer extracts the hard drive, goes somewhere else and installs it into a new computer where it functions normally.

This is total baloney though. A hard disk drive has several microchips inside it all of which would be considerably more delicate than an automotive embedded processor and all of which are essential for the drive to function. If you took that drive to one of those data recovery places I imagine that they could remove the platters and read them, but you could not just plug it into a new computer and expect it to function.

In order for hardware to be immune to EMP's it would have to use absolutely no susceptible components. That the cpu, or even the majority of components are immune is not enough: they must all be immune.
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Nath
post Jan 29 2004, 12:15 AM
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A hard disk drive like yours and mine is completely vulnerable to EMP (or to a magnet passed on it, probably). It's also a physically fragile system which require hard casing. Removing the disk to put another one, or insert the disk in another reader is a very complicated operation. So when you extract it, you take a block including the disks themselves and the reading system, you never separate them. The equivalent would be to extract your CD drive with the CD inside as a single unit. EMP would fry the laser (the reading system) and let the drive useless, but you can open it and remove the CD. EMP would let the CD itself intact. Like a Rhodopsine chip, it's a very simple, physical system with its own "casing" (lacquer). The data are then retrievable with another computer with a CD drive.

Otherwise, yes, I said it above, there are no "optically-powered" computer. Well, you could still create an insanely large set of mirrors to power a laser in a optical computer, but that's another topic. Having optical data storage and processing systems 'd made me say this "photo-electronic" system is "optically-based". The optical systems are the core of this system.
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John Campbell
post Jan 29 2004, 05:23 AM
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QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
but you can't provide power to something with a beam of light.... thats just silly.

Tell that to your microwave.

QUOTE (Nath)
AFAIK, if the said charged particle are electrons, when the beam will hit a solid target, there will be EMP. If they are protons, I don't know, but I wouldn't surprised if it messed up as well with electronic systems.

Yeah, but it's not the primary damaging effect... that'd be the kinetic and thermal energy dumped into the target. Calling ANDREWS an EMP weapon is kind of like saying that DU rounds kill you by heavy metal poisoning.
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Nath
post Jan 29 2004, 07:56 AM
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QUOTE (John Campbell)
QUOTE (Nath)
AFAIK, if the said charged particle are electrons, when the beam will hit a solid target, there will be EMP. If they are protons, I don't know, but I wouldn't surprised if it messed up as well with electronic systems.

Yeah, but it's not the primary damaging effect... that'd be the kinetic and thermal energy dumped into the target. Calling ANDREWS an EMP weapon is kind of like saying that DU rounds kill you by heavy metal poisoning.

It is precicely said in the weapon's description that it either detonate missiles or fries their components, so that side-effect must be often playing a part in the weapon effectiveness. And ships and other potential targets are much more resilient to thermal and kinetic attacks than missiles are.
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Jason Farlander
post Jan 29 2004, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (John Campbell)
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
but you can't provide power to something with a beam of light.... thats just silly.

Tell that to your microwave.


Cute... but the last time I checked, microwaves did not reside in the visible spectrum -- they are a form of radio wave. And I dont think youll get a lot of people to agree with you if you think that a radio is an excellent example of optical engineering.

Anyway, call me up when you manage to get your microwave to power your toaster.
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BitBasher
post Jan 29 2004, 05:26 PM
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You are all forgetting that there may hev been some advace in energy transmission and use in SR that works on a concept that has not yet been discovered. It's 60 years in the future. It doesn't HAVE to makes ense based on what we know now.
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Jason Farlander
post Jan 29 2004, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
You are all forgetting that there may hev been some advace in energy transmission and use in SR that works on a concept that has not yet been discovered. It's 60 years in the future. It doesn't HAVE to makes ense based on what we know now.

Perhaps. First, though, I would like someone to provide a canon reference to the fact that electronic devices not directly involved in data storage are now optically powered. Second, I would like to point out that the rules for cybersystem damage from an electrical attack in M&M seem to indicate that if the SR developers ever made the assertion that things like cyberlimbs are optically powered, they have abandoned or ignored this assertion.
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Kesh
post Jan 29 2004, 06:00 PM
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Not to mention that the microwave is powered from your wall jack. Nothing optical about that. :)
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John Campbell
post Jan 30 2004, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Cute... but the last time I checked, microwaves did not reside in the visible spectrum -- they are a form of radio wave.

"Microwave" is just a term used to describe a certain color of light, higher frequency than radio, but lower frequency than infrared. Calling microwave "a form of radio wave" is both inaccurate, because they're not radio frequency, and irrelevant, because radio waves (and microwaves) are just as much light as any other portion of the spectrum. Microwave ovens operate by transmitting power into the object to be heated via a beam of light. That your eyes aren't equipped to see that light doesn't make it any less a beam of light.

QUOTE
And I dont think youll get a lot of people to agree with you if you think that a radio is an excellent example of optical engineering.

I didn't say it was. Your basic transistor radio is an electronic device. So is a microwave oven. However, they both do exactly what you're claiming is "just silly"... transmit power via a beam of light. So do laser weapons - possibly even in the visible portion of the spectrum. There's been talk of using lasers to launch spaceships... there's no reason that the same principles couldn't be used to spin a turbine, if you insist on light-driven motors. (Though "electric" and "electronic" are not synonymous, so it's entirely possible to have a standard electric motor without any electronics.)

QUOTE
Anyway, call me up when you manage to get your microwave to power your toaster.

I would, but it wouldn't really be newsworthy. The tech is decades old. Try reading up on microwave power transmission.
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Bones
post Jan 30 2004, 02:25 AM
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Fiber optics transmit using light. Light itself is defined as having both electric properties and magnetic properties i.e. the nature of light is electromagnetic and can act as a wave or particle. That being said, why wouldn't an emp device not affect said cyberware? Just curious. Campbell hit the nail on the head with the microwaves - someone knows their physics :)
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