LOOT THE BODY! Options

[LurkerOutThere]

If you're looking for a decent way to scare your player off of the 'loot all the cars' mentality, well, drop him a surprise next time. Is he awakened? If not, good. The setup goes something like this.
Mage: 'Well, I've parked my nice sedan in a bad part of town, but I neeed to be here to pick up some important things. It shouldn't be too long, but just in case... Here, fire spirit, watch this car. Warn anyone who approaches it, and fry them if they touch it.' And that's the car your thief just tried to steal.

Another way to curb this is to heavily enforce the availability and cost adjustment tables. Also contact-fencing(sr4a 287). Twenty percent each for stolen and used, and under investigation. "Hi, on-star? My car got stolen, can you look into it?" That kind of thing. If you enforce the idea that shadowrunning pays rather well compared to the alternatives, especially when you figure in time and effort, most players will get the drift, if you're trying to curb 'steal everything that isn't nailed down' behavior.

The problem is that devotes more playing time and more attention to the character the GM already has a problem with his car stealing habit. My solution is actually a bit more simple. "You spend a few hours driving around but none of your normal chop shop contacts take the car.

[The Dragon Girl]

That is one type of job... and that would probably be a rare type, where a johnson just needs a copy of something a rival corp is working on. I have been playing shadow run off and on for years with multiple GMs and only had maybe 1 or 2 runs where the point was to not have any evidence a run was done at the target.

As for bodies, if you notice there are far far more items in the game centered around killing than not killing. For the most part the more bodies the better when you are targeting a corp. If there are a lot of deaths from security that weakens the overall corp, afterall who wants to take up a security job where the position is open because the last crew was killed?
Corps probably wouldnt normally hire runners to just go waste security and leave, as that would encourge their rivals to do the same to them, but when there is another target at hand I dont think a johnson really cares if you kill every security guard in the place if you meet the mission objective.

The games I've been in, it would be considered incredibly sloppy to leave a bunch of corpses laying around. Not to mention unnecessary, between the super squirt, stick n shocks, shocking gloves, shocking grasp, unarmed combat, and stunballs, if you're good enough, you don't have to go lethal, unless its actually called for. Hell just sneaking past the guards rather than bulldozing through them is often an option.

I know I wouldn't want to hire a group of runners known for a lot of collateral damage unless the collateral damage was the actual point of the thing.

And yes, most of the work we do is in a 'we were never there' way.

Despite being LA runners.

Wetwork is just one aspect of doing a job to kill someone. If you are sent on an extraction run you will probably have to kill people to get the target out, that just comes with the job. Waiting for security to drop from getting hit with narcoject is just a liability, it leaves you and your team open to return fire.
If you are sent on an extraction, a theft, a demolition, a sabotage or a distraction run the johnson probably expects you to kill a few people and the runners should expect it as well... you are being paid to do something that will involve the death or others.

That sounds like a very sloppy extraction to me. And check your rules on Narcoject + dmso, its not as long as you think. Killing people while lifting property or sabotaging -definitely- sounds sloppy, thats a good way to get caught, and there are plenty of ways to make a distraction without killing people. My group does it all the time. "Demolitions" probably needs death, 'sending a message' probably needs death 'these drekkers killed my baby girl, please kill them for me' definitely needs death.

Just because you like to play your game one way does doesn't mean thats the only way to do it.

[Twilights_Herald]

That is one type of job... and that would probably be a rare type, where a johnson just needs a copy of something a rival corp is working on. I have been playing shadow run off and on for years with multiple GMs and only had maybe 1 or 2 runs where the point was to not have any evidence a run was done at the target.

As for bodies, if you notice there are far far more items in the game centered around killing than not killing. For the most part the more bodies the better when you are targeting a corp. If there are a lot of deaths from security that weakens the overall corp, afterall who wants to take up a security job where the position is open because the last crew was killed?
Corps probably wouldnt normally hire runners to just go waste security and leave, as that would encourge their rivals to do the same to them, but when there is another target at hand I dont think a johnson really cares if you kill every security guard in the place if you meet the mission objective.

Dragon Girl already touched on this, but this is highly un-runner like behavior in 99% of cases. Runners are not thugs. Nor are they murderers, thieves, or low-grade scum. They are professionals doing a job.

Let's examine this carefully. You assert that:

1. The Johnson wants the other corp weakened as much as possible.
2. The more bodies, the better.

Let's examine these assertions.

1. The Johnson wants the other corp weakened as much as possible. This could not be further from the truth. While these situations have been known to come up, they never end well for anyone involved. Scorched Earth tactics in the shadows led, ultimately, to the fall of Fuchi, the Novatech IPO, and millions of corporate citizens killed on both sides when things escalated out of control. Your employer strictly wants the mission objectives completed. While he doesn't much care what else has to get destroyed in the process, too much wanton destruction doesn't help matters.

2. The more bodies, the better. I really have to wonder what your logic here is. A person is an asset to their corporation. Sure, there's millions of other rent-a-cops to replace the ones you shot, but each one represents an investment in time and money that the corporation can't afford to simply ignore. As a Shadowrunner, you make your living by doing two things. One, getting the job done. Two, making sure it's not worth the time and effort for anyone to follow up on your antics. Stealing a prototype for another corp to study can often be written off as 'the cost of doing business' in the 2070s. After all, you probably did it to the other guy. Hell, maybe you stole it from the other guy in the first place. Furthermore, if the job was done with a minimum of fuss, while the corp could probably find you, by the time they do the asset is no longer in your possession and they're better off just hiring you to steal it back than trying to extract the costs from your hide.

Destroyed/killed assets, on the other hand, invite retribution. After all, there's no replacing it, and you didn't have to kill them. The only thing for it is to find the runners and make a proper example out of you. Plus, of course, word gets around that there's a new team in town who is going to be making things harder for everybody, since corp security all around is going to be massively beefed up to deal with the jokers. Other runner teams would likely come down, hard, on you just to make sure you don't screw things up for everyone.

If you behaved like this in any of my games, your character would be hung out to dry by the end of session 2, and probably dead by session 4.

[Karoline]

Hehe....

"Five billion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) project only months away from completion? No problem, that's business. A dead rent-a-cop? NOOOOO!!! GET THOSE BASTARDS!!"

[Twilights_Herald]

Hehe....

"Five billion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) project only months away from completion? No problem, that's business. A dead rent-a-cop? NOOOOO!!! GET THOSE BASTARDS!!"

Odd as it sounds, yes. Because this time it may have just been low-level security that got wiped. Next time they might end up killing off a project team worth trillions in revenue over the course of their entire lifetimes. The runners prove themselves too big a risk to fuck around with.

Edit: I suppose I should clarify that this isn't necessarily about a few dead security guards now and then. That's also part of the cost of doing business. This is about flagrant disregard for metahuman life and wanton destruction of property beyond the parameters of the job set out. If you get caught and have to lay a guard out before he can call in his buddies, stuff the body in a closet somewhere and that's that. It's the 'go in shooting and make sure nothing's left alive' attitude that would get you into trouble.

[StealthSigma]

And check your rules on Narcoject + dmso, its not as long as you think.

End of round is not soon enough, not when you compare it to the potency of stick-n-shock.

[nezumi]

I'm fine with my party looting. They do not, however, generally loot, because I enforce the following rules...

1) It takes time to remove this stuff, especially cyberware. Anywhere not in the barrens and police will arrive. I very nearly lost two PCs because they spent so long looting, the police got the jump on them. Enforce that, and sooner or later, it'll catch up with your players. Meanwhile, the barrens are not empty. There are people there. If they cleaned out a gang hide-out, how long will it be before another group of gangers who were out buying beer return, realize something is up, sneak up and toss in a few frags? Or the sound of gunfire attracts a neighboring gang, who is hoping to catch their enemy with his pants down, but are just as happy to secure the loot for themselves? The players are taking advantage of the world being static. It isn't static. People hear gunshots and report. People react. People walk in to the wrong place at the wrong time. Your PCs spending too long in enemy territory is ALWAYS a vulnerability.

2) PCs need to haul this. One PC actually converted his trunk to a freezer for 1 body (or parts), but he'll have trouble carrying any more (and they smell and leak all over the upholstry). A lot of this stuff is very bulky. A lot of it is also worthless. A crate full of coffee mugs? Go for it, buddy.

3) PCs need to store this stuff. I doubt they live in a warehouse. They need somewhere to stash their pile of 20 AKs, 40 predators, 30 armored vests, etc. That takes money.

4) This gear is probably hot. If they stole it off someone in the barrens, it was likely used in another crime. If they stole it from someone with a SIN, it's now evidence of a murder. If Lone Star ever finds the stash, it's a giant pile of evidence. They'll make SURE they catch those runners. Make sure the runners are aware of this huge risk.

5) It doesn't sell for much. Gear will sell for 5-15% of the book price. I made up rules for selling for more, but it takes more time and requires contacts (one PC is a fixer). They sell about 1/10th of their stock every month for 15-20% of the retail price. It's a thousand more here and there for all their risk and work. Not a huge advantage.


My PCs do loot, if they have the time, and I'm okay with that. 70% of it is gear they intend to use in the future. Backup guns and all that. 30% is high-value stuff to be sold. Their paychecks (and debts) are too big for $200 extra from an Ares Pred to make much difference, so they don't really stress about it.

[Faradon]

No, thats what the stick&shcok rounds and stun balls are for, no need to kill anyone when you can stun them much easier.
It's very unprofessional to kill the whole security detail when you extract someone, unless thats what your specifically being payed to do.

I'm right with you on this one. When you go in and start murdering people... some of their friends, families, employers, etc. are gonna want some payback. I think someone suggested in this thread or another one having "old army buddies" and such take up the banner to exact revenge on the team who killed Joe the security guard, father of five and scoutmaster. Using non-lethal methods whenever possible is always preferable so that the incentive is not as high to track down the team and murder them. I always like to keep a low profile whenever possible... especially when dealing with the big boys.

[Kitsu]

Actually, my players have discovered that S&S rounds and stun spells are much more effective for the cost (nuyen and drain) than the lethal options. (I haven't let them find APDS source yet though)

The S&S's give a chance of incapacitation on top of stun, and work on vehicles, drones, and electronics, and the stun spells are lower drain for the same amount of incapacitation.

And heck, if you've got them stunned, you can always walk up and pay the insurance afterward, if you have to.

[Blade]

What I like to do is have the K.O character roll for their healing test as soon as they're down, then consider that as soon as one stun damage box is healed up, they wake up. This can lead to K.O guards waking up and raising the alarm if they were not restrained.
I also consider that gel/SnS/etc. are not "non-lethal" but "less than lethal": a gel round (or a whole lot of them) can still kill, and tasers incident show that SnS might kill people too.

[StealthSigma]

What I like to do is have the K.O character roll for their healing test as soon as they're down, then consider that as soon as one stun damage box is healed up, they wake up. This can lead to K.O guards waking up and raising the alarm if they were not restrained.
I also consider that gel/SnS/etc. are not "non-lethal" but "less than lethal": a gel round (or a whole lot of them) can still kill, and tasers incident show that SnS might kill people too.

Stun damage overflows onto the physical track. So SnS can kill, it just takes a lot more rounds than lethal ammunition.

[Dakka Dakka]

What I like to do is have the K.O character roll for their healing test as soon as they're down, then consider that as soon as one stun damage box is healed up, they wake up. This can lead to K.O guards waking up and raising the alarm if they were not restrained.

This however contradicts RAW and you should tell your players. Normally they can roll after an hour, and yes if they recover one Box they are awake again.

I also consider that gel/SnS/etc. are not "non-lethal" but "less than lethal": a gel round (or a whole lot of them) can still kill, and tasers incident show that SnS might kill people too.

This is RAW. Stun Damage always overflows into Physical.

[Blade]

This however contradicts RAW and you shopuld tell your players. Normally they can roll after an hour, and yes if they recover one Box they are awake again.
This is RAW. Stun Damage always overflows into Physical.

Yeah I know RAW. But there's a difference between knowing it and applying it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
... And my players are aware that I'm not always RAW and that "realism" and common sense come first (for example that people don't necessarily stay unconscious for one whole hour everytime they're knocked-out).

As for stun overflowing into physical, I also apply "house-rules" things such as character glitching their resistance tests leading to stun damage being upscaled to physical which, in my opinion, is a better way to simulate the tazer accident.

[JaronK]

My current group includes a Vodoo Houdin and a Medic with a full clinic, plus a mage who can cast F6 Fashion (3rd ed). We regularly grab nearly every body, throw them in the van, use Fashion to change the look of any armor (and make security armor fit us), strip out the cyberware, remove identifying marks, and then either burn or raise the bodies. No sense leaving more evidence at the scene, after all... and waste not want not!

JaronK

[Orcus Blackweath...]

One problem our group has had in the past (and likely will again in the future). Narcojet can be more lethal than a regular round. I fire a heavy pistol 5p with capsule becomes 5s. I have critical success, and stage up to 10p, and target gets few or no damage soak successes. The target then has to soak 10s from the narcojet, and cascades damage to physical. This is especially bad if the target took previous damage. We have had a number of accidental fatalities from this. It has been imagined that the police are profiling us as serial killers. For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

[Kitsu]

One problem our group has had in the past (and likely will again in the future). Narcojet can be more lethal than a regular round. I fire a heavy pistol 5p with capsule becomes 5s. I have critical success, and stage up to 10p, and target gets few or no damage soak successes. The target then has to soak 10s from the narcojet, and cascades damage to physical. This is especially bad if the target took previous damage. We have had a number of accidental fatalities from this. It has been imagined that the police are profiling us as serial killers. For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

This is true, but any NPC "in the business" would recognize the attempt at less-lethal combat, and temper their need for revenge at accidental stun kills.

[Karoline]

For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

Good old Murphy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I remember when I first realized that a light pistol with SnS rounds was basically as effective as an assault rifle... Good times.

[Screaming Eagle]

One problem our group has had in the past (and likely will again in the future). Narcojet can be more lethal than a regular round. I fire a heavy pistol 5p with capsule becomes 5s. I have critical success, and stage up to 10p, and target gets few or no damage soak successes. The target then has to soak 10s from the narcojet, and cascades damage to physical. This is especially bad if the target took previous damage. We have had a number of accidental fatalities from this. It has been imagined that the police are profiling us as serial killers. For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .

Use a crappier gun, much crappier. A hold out or something.

I can see the issue but you really should not be generating many kills this way unless the rules are being read quite literally - you knocked him out with a capsule doing sigifigant bruising and impact damage and then tranqed him pretty damn hard. Hes not bleeding out and has not taken an overdose of the drug - I'd be prone to ignore (and argue for the ignoring) the "bleeding out" rules in this case.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Hehe....

"Five billion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) project only months away from completion? No problem, that's business. A dead rent-a-cop? NOOOOO!!! GET THOSE BASTARDS!!"

Of course it goes like this. Imagine the heart-broken chief of security having to call all the wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, parents of the dead sec-corps...
Or, as is said in "Austin Powers", no one thinks about the thugs' families... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Twilights_Herald]

Of course it goes like this. Imagine the heart-broken chief of security having to call all the wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, parents of the dead sec-corps...
Or, as is said in "Austin Powers", no one thinks about the thugs' families... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

...I had forgotten for a minute that in many cities the rent-a-cops and the real cops are owned by the same company. Yeah, killing a cop, even when they're on 'private property' duty, is usually a bad way to start the week.

[Screaming Eagle]

Keep in mind that on top of this they have an internal image to maintain with their employees - they are an employer the Cares (especially Aztecnology, they have better uses for the BLOOD!). The responce to corperate espinoge is an internal security audit and shake down. The responce to 15+ homocides of people who were on the clock (often working after hours) had better be more visable and active or it shatters morale. Sure no one was close with Jim the Night Security guard (and his 12 night shift co-workers) but he smiled and liked his job and now he's dead.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Here is a good reason why the corps would like that runners don't kill their employees MOST of the time.
It is all about money. If all your security is insured and you end up paying their family and have to star paying more money to hire security because no one wants to work on minimum wage knowing that can be killed any time. Well, you better go after those runners who FUBAR your facility.

[JaronK]

At the same time, if you're caught you're caught. If you gave them a way to find you, they'll find you. And if you've just screwed people out of millions, they're going to kill you or jail you anyway... so it's better not to leave witnesses. Our group kills anyone who's seen us in action, no questions.

JaronK

[The Dragon Girl]

At the same time, if you're caught you're caught. If you gave them a way to find you, they'll find you. And if you've just screwed people out of millions, they're going to kill you or jail you anyway... so it's better not to leave witnesses. Our group kills anyone who's seen us in action, no questions.

JaronK

Not so much a problem in LA runs where the runners -expect- to be seen and have already taken precautions that are pretty elaborate involving that. My first thoughts, because the games I've been in have all been LA were: .. why weren't they taking precautions about people seeing what they really look like to begin with? There are -all sorts- of ways to disguise oneself, and if all else fails.. masks, hoods, scarf half over the face.

My phys adept is terribly fanatical about it, she never uses her real face in public, she only uses certain faces for runs, she shaves everything but her eyebrows to avoid trace evidence, and keeps every inch of skin except her face covered at all times.

And thats before the chameleon suit, those precautions are taken on the basis that someone might be able to see through her chameleon suit's tech somehow, usually shes not seen at all, both because of stealth tech, and just plain good planning and a hacker in the cameras..

[Twilights_Herald]

At the same time, if you're caught you're caught. If you gave them a way to find you, they'll find you. And if you've just screwed people out of millions, they're going to kill you or jail you anyway... so it's better not to leave witnesses. Our group kills anyone who's seen us in action, no questions.

JaronK

Anthropomorphizing the corporation? That's a good way to get yourself dead. Here's the funny thing, you haven't screwed 'people' out of millions. If you haven't gone for maximum carnage, you may have screwed site security out of their bonuses this year. The corporation has lost quite a bit more, but it does not have any feelings. The corp, whether it be Ares, Horizon, Aztechnology, or some lowly AA or A you've never heard of, is little more than a legal and social fiction. Any pretense of revenge goes flying out the window, because any person who might want to get revenge isn't going to be allowed the resources to attain it.

Instead, the decision of whether to make an example of you falls to the same division that deals with shadowrunners in the first place. This division goes by a different name at each company, and fits in somewhere different in the hierarchy, but for the sake of argument we'll call it Black Ops.

Why would it fall to Black Ops and not Security/Law Enforcement to make this decision? Because, often, to get to you they're going to have to break the law and cross 'international' borders. That means that, once you're off company property, they can't officially come after you at all. So if they're going to do it, it has to be with deniable assets. Either company men or true shadowrunners. So at the end of the day, the guy in charge of making that decision has good reasons to leave you alive (if you're good enough to get away, you're good enough to hire to MAKE millions another day).

That said, this is the default position. It makes a number of assumptions about the nature of the job, and there are several other factors which might swing it one direction or the other.

Taking anything that's not strictly related to the mission goals. If you're hired to steal one prototype from a secret weapons lab, leave everything else alone. It's not likely to take them long to figure out what your Johnson was really after. Same thing with paydata or, really, just about anything. You can probably get away with restocking on ammunition from dead/disabled security guards, provided you throw any excess out to avoid the RFID tracking problem. But the thing is, if you steal anything else, you don't have an easy way to get rid of it. In the case of what you've been hired to do, either the damage is already done once you've left the scene, or it will be within a few hours once you make the handoff to Mr. J. That's the window they have to find you, in the hopes of getting their stuff back. You don't know who hired you, you have no way to get in touch with them, and the corp you just hit knows this. It would be pointless to bring you down after that. But if you've gone on an excess crime spree inside their secret lab, you've just about guaranteed you will have something that belongs to them for several days. This lengthens the window of opportunity to cut their losses, and it gives Black Ops a rumor trail to follow.when you try to hock the stuff. This is why looting the bodies is a bad idea.

Excessive carnage. The more damage you cause in the process of getting the job done, the less you're worth. Now, this isn't going to come around and get you right away. The retribution for this comes later, as your team slowly gets crossed off the job lists of every player in town. You're already causing a fair amount of damage to the bottom line, but inflicting several times what your employer stands to make on the job reflects poorly on your boss. You can get away with this now and again, but doing it too frequently means that, in the corporate world, hiring you is not just stealing the other corp's stuff, it's sending a message of 'now, it's personal'. And as I've stated before, that kind of vendetta always ends badly for every company that gets pulled into it. So they're not going to hire you.

In the end, it's a choice. "No witnesses" is a viable way to approach it, and it may leave fewer people behind who will make it personal. But when they do they will be willing to expend a lot more of their time and energy on bringing you down. Disabling security guards leaves a bit more of a trail, but the people left behind only have injured pride to deal with. They aren't likely to start spending their weekends trolling 'runner bars with a dynamite vest looking to blow you up in retribution.