switching fire modes Options

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Full bursts are complex actions. Long bursts are simples. Short bursts are simples. You can fire a maximum of ten bullets in a pass (phase). This means that you can theoretically fire a long and a short in the same pass. But long bursts are fired in full-auto mode, while short bursts are fired in burst mode. This means that to fire them both in the same phase, you must spend a free action - if you're smartlinked - to change fire modes. Correct?

Underbarrel-mounted weapons, like grenade launchers. Such weapons have their own triggers, right? So to switch weapons, you must spend an action, wouldn't you say? A simple to switch grips, or a free to switch if you're smartlinked, and pull the trigger virtually? In such a case, is there a penalty for switching? I kinda hate to suggest it, but if there's a penalty for something as simple as switching targets, shouldn't it be worse for switching weapons?

[Jaid]

Full bursts are complex actions. Long bursts are simples. Short bursts are simples. You can fire a maximum of ten bullets in a pass (phase). This means that you can theoretically fire a long and a short in the same pass. But long bursts are fired in full-auto mode, while short bursts are fired in burst mode. This means that to fire them both in the same phase, you must spend a free action - if you're smartlinked - to change fire modes. Correct?

the book clearly indicates (or at least SR4A does, haven't checked 4 but it looks pretty much the same) that you can fire short bursts with full-auto mode.

Underbarrel-mounted weapons, like grenade launchers. Such weapons have their own triggers, right? So to switch weapons, you must spend an action, wouldn't you say? A simple to switch grips, or a free to switch if you're smartlinked, and pull the trigger virtually? In such a case, is there a penalty for switching? I kinda hate to suggest it, but if there's a penalty for something as simple as switching targets, shouldn't it be worse for switching weapons?

i don't see why... consider that when you're choosing a different target you're actually having to line up the shot all over again; clearly this is going to throw off your aim a little. it's entirely possible the switch from main weapon to underbarrel weapon is controlled by a switch within easy reach of either hand without removing them from the gun, and i would expect most weapons to have such a device (assuming they aren't smartlinked to begin with); it's something relatively simple to implement that can easily make the difference between someone buying your underbarrel weapon, and your major competitor's underbarrel weapon.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

The only reference to firing short bursts on FA, is when firing at multiple targets, but that's not actually short bursts (where the gun is concerned), that's just for figuring damage.

Both guns use the same trigger, but use a thumb switch to toggle between the two?

[Traul]

Do guns have triggers in SR4? In SR3, you can fire a smartlinked gun with a mental impulse. That would be the way to go for any double weapon.

There is also voice control, but I don't think it would work in a fight. It is mainly there for distraction when you are stripped of your gun.

[Dakka Dakka]

The only reference to firing short bursts on FA, is when firing at multiple targets, but that's not actually short bursts (where the gun is concerned), that's just for figuring damage.

Not true. A) For multiple targets everything is handled like short bursts - attack and damage.

B)

Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action.

So the BF mode is nearly superfluous. But for some reason, you can't call a shot on a three round burst, if the three bullets are shot from a FA weapon, but you can do a wide burst to increase damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[Tyro]

<snip>
...you can't call a shot on a three round burst, if the three bullets are shot from a FA weapon, but you can do a wide burst to increase damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Wide bursts make it easier to hit. NARROW bursts increase damage.

[TheOOB]

Do guns have triggers in SR4? In SR3, you can fire a smartlinked gun with a mental impulse. That would be the way to go for any double weapon.

There is also voice control, but I don't think it would work in a fight. It is mainly there for distraction when you are stripped of your gun.

Smartlinked guns don't need triggers to fire. A matrix command is sufficient, and you could use stuff like voice control if you attached a sensor. That said the guns still have a trigger unless you have the trigger removed, which is a fairly cheap procedure.

[MusicMan]

I don't know the rule for changing firing modes, but on the M-16, going from SA to BF is a simple flick of the thumb.

Having both BF and FA on a weapon is highly pointless. Usually governments will order weapons with BF so that less-disciplined troops won't click over to FA and spray all over the place and waste ammo. There is no reason to have both on the same weapons *shrug*

[Traul]

Having both BF and FA on a weapon is highly pointless. Usually governments will order weapons with BF so that less-disciplined troops won't click over to FA and spray all over the place and waste ammo. There is no reason to have both on the same weapons *shrug*

That's what the rules imply, since FA can do everything BF does. Sadly, this does not reflect on the weapons themselves. Let's face it: Ares engineers are morons.

[DWC]

That's what the rules imply, since FA can do everything BF does. Sadly, this does not reflect on the weapons themselves. Let's face it: Ares engineers are morons.

Ares engineers can't be morons. They're the only ones selling assault rifles with recoil compensation built into the action. Now, the slapdicks who put R1 gas vents on rifles rather than go whole hog with the R3, those are the true halfwits.

[MusicMan]

I always felt that an R1 Gas Vent was something like a muzzle break/flash suppressor, a little thing that you put on the end of a barrel to redirect the gases to help push the barrel back down. They're fairly standard on most rifles.

[Traul]

The problem in SR is that per RAW the gas vent system cannot be upgraded or changed. By adding a gas vent 1 system in their factory weapons (mostly a problem for automatics), the corps gimp the modification opportunities.

[Dakka Dakka]

Wide bursts make it easier to hit. NARROW bursts increase damage.

Woops, what I wrote was a bit of a contraction. What I meant was you cannot use FA on a Called Shot, but a wide BF burst could be used in a Called Shot which increases damage.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Not true. A) For multiple targets everything is handled like short bursts - attack and damage.

B)
So the BF mode is nearly superfluous. But for some reason, you can't call a shot on a three round burst, if the three bullets are shot from a FA weapon, but you can do a wide burst to increase damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Dakka, I don't see how the rule you quoted proves you can fire short bursts in FA mode. First of all, when you fire at multiple targets, it's treated as if you fired several short bursts for the purpose of the rules and dice rolling, but as far as your gun is concerned, you're holding down the trigger and letting ten bullets fly.

Second, the rule, Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action. This doesn't say anything about short bursts. It says you can fire bursts, and then says you can fire either long bursts or full bursts.

My question up top is about mixing short and long. I haven't seen any proof of being able to fire a short burst in FA mode. Short bursts are only mentioned in the section about BF mode.

[MusicMan]

You should be able to fire a short bursts with FA. If RAW says otherwise, then the writers fail logic forever. It is possible to fire single rounds out of a SAW (M-249), albeit it is not "easy."

[Jaid]

Second, the rule, Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action. This doesn't say anything about short bursts. It says you can fire bursts, and then says you can fire either long bursts or full bursts.

well then maybe you should actually go look at the quote in context, because the burst rules found above that text are the ones for burst firing mode.

[Medicineman]

Full bursts are complex actions. Long bursts are simples. Short bursts are simples. You can fire a maximum of ten bullets in a pass (phase). This means that you can theoretically fire a long and a short in the same pass. But long bursts are fired in full-auto mode, while short bursts are fired in burst mode. This means that to fire them both in the same phase, you must spend a free action - if you're smartlinked - to change fire modes. Correct?
...

Note quite (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Burst Fire (even long Burst) is a simple Action. You just need a Weapon capable of full Autofire for a long Burst,but its fired in Burst Mode(simple Action).

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Medicineman]

The problem in SR is that per RAW the gas vent system cannot be upgraded or changed. By adding a gas vent 1 system in their factory weapons (mostly a problem for automatics), the corps gimp the modification opportunities.

You simply switch the Barrells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I Modified lots of Weapons .Can you tell me the Page for the RAW that Gas Vents can't be changed ?

with a curiopus Dance
Medicineman

[CollateralDynamo]

That's what the rules imply, since FA can do everything BF does. Sadly, this does not reflect on the weapons themselves. Let's face it: Ares engineers are morons.

Well, from a rules stand point the Ares boys are morons, but if we assume for a moment that the Ares engineers live in the real world and don't actually look closely at the abstractions and mechanics of the world around them, then I think it makes sense sometimes to have both options. Burst fire is very handy for poorly trained soldiers or when ammo conservation is key. Full auto obviously is useful in many other ways. Having both be an OPTION could be useful to many people in the real world.

Of course, if the Ares engineers were smart enough to develop "peel back the curtain of rules" tech and say "hey, no check is ever required to conserve ammo! Screw this Burst Fire drek!" then yeah, they'd be morons. But I personally hope nobody gets so 4th wall breaking as to discover said technology.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

well then maybe you should actually go look at the quote in context, because the burst rules found above that text are the ones for burst firing mode.

That text is found in the section headed "FULL-AUTO MODE". Every rule regarding bursts that is found in the "BURST-FIRE MODE" section talks about recoil of -2, and damage of +2. Not a word about long bursts. The FA section has subsections on "LONG BURSTS" and "FULL BURSTS".

Note quite (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Burst Fire (even long Burst) is a simple Action. You just need a Weapon capable of full Autofire for a long Burst, but its fired in Burst Mode(simple Action).

HokaHey
Medicineman

I would like to believe this, but I don't see a rule for it. Can you make a case, ruleswise?


Next question, IRL, what is the mechanism for changing the size of your burst? Hold down the trigger for a different period of time? A switch? Punch a number on a keypad?

[MusicMan]

Well, from a rules stand point the Ares boys are morons, but if we assume for a moment that the Ares engineers live in the real world and don't actually look closely at the abstractions and mechanics of the world around them, then I think it makes sense sometimes to have both options. Burst fire is very handy for poorly trained soldiers or when ammo conservation is key. Full auto obviously is useful in many other ways. Having both be an OPTION could be useful to many people in the real world.

The problem is that if FA is an option, there is nothing to stop the poorly trained soldier from skipping BF and just cutting loose on FA. So, your argument doesn't work...

[Dakka Dakka]

That text is found in the section headed "FULL-AUTO MODE". Every rule regarding bursts that is found in the "BURST-FIRE MODE" section talks about recoil of -2, and damage of +2. Not a word about long bursts. The FA section has subsections on "LONG BURSTS" and "FULL BURSTS".

Once again for clarity. Emphasis mine:

Characters can use a weapon in full-auto
mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action.

And now the section above:

Burst-Fire Mode
In burst-fire mode, firearms spit out bullets in rapid succession every time the trigger is pulled. Firing a weapon in burst-fire mode is a Simple Action, which means that a character can fire up to two bursts per Action Phase. Each burst requires a separate attack test. The firing character can choose to fire a narrow burst or a wide burst, each described below. Both use up three bullets. The first burst fired in an Action Phase inflicts a –2 recoil modifier, the second inflicts an additional –3 recoil (neutralized by recoil compensation, if any).

Narrow Bursts
Narrow bursts cause more damage to the target. Increase the attack’s DV by +2. Note that
this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.
Wide Bursts
Wide bursts spray bullets around for a better chance of hitting the target. Decrease the defender’s
dice pool by –2.

I would like to believe this, but I don't see a rule for it. Can you make a case, ruleswise?

Sure

Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action.

Next question, IRL, what is the mechanism for changing the size of your burst? Hold down the trigger for a different period of time? A switch? Punch a number on a keypad?

In BF the weapon stops after a certain amount of bullets fired. In FA you have to hold down the trigger as long as you want the weapon to fire. The weapon otherwise only stops if the magazine/belt is empty.

@Music man: IRL there are also weapons even assault rifles that only have SA and BF.

[Jaid]

That text is found in the section headed "FULL-AUTO MODE". Every rule regarding bursts that is found in the "BURST-FIRE MODE" section talks about recoil of -2, and damage of +2. Not a word about long bursts. The FA section has subsections on "LONG BURSTS" and "FULL BURSTS".

yes. and as Dakka Dakka just pointed out, it refers you to the section above. which is the regular burst section for burst firing weapons. which means that if the rules tell you it can do bursts just like the section above (which just so happens to be the section on burst firing bursts) as well as long bursts, then that would seem to heavily imply that they mean you can do regular bursts (or short bursts, or burst fire bursts, or three-round-bursts, or whatever other name you wish to use for them) using full auto fire. because otherwise they wouldn't tell you you can do that exact kind of burst in the full-auto section.

like i said, go read it in context. it's all right there, in plain english. (presumably, if you have the book in another language, it's actually in that other language, but i can't vouch for that)

[MusicMan]

@Music man: IRL there are also weapons even assault rifles that only have SA and BF.

I'm well aware of that, the M-16 that they give us in the army is one such assault rifle. My point was that the SA/BF combination was invented to keep undisciplined soldiers from cutting loose and wasting ammo (that and anything going FA tends to attract alot of return fire). The BF prevents a soldier from doing that.

However, a trained soldier can use an FA weapon with a little more finesse, and does not need the 2/3 shot limit on the sear. For such a soldier the BF setting as pointless as he has the ability to control the FA to get as much firepower as he needs per pull.

So, my point was, that having a SA/BF/FA firearm is pointless, as someone who can use the FA setting properly won't need the BF setting and someone who needs to be using the BF setting should not have the temptation of misusing the FA.

[Stingray]

You simply switch the Barrells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I Modified lots of Weapons .Can you tell me the Page for the RAW that Gas Vents can't be changed ?

with a curiopus Dance
Medicineman

by Arsenal "if an off-the-rack weapons that come with certain upgrades such as smart...
it is assumed those upgrades are modifications instead of accessories"
"Once a firearm hold a modification a particular type it can not not be
further equipped with accessory (Modification not mentioned!) of that type..
..so RAI/RAW off-the rack gas-vent I can be upgraded to gas-vent 3 (modification).. just pay to yens and 2 slots..