Full bursts are complex actions. Long bursts are simples. Short bursts are simples. You can fire a maximum of ten bullets in a pass (phase). This means that you can theoretically fire a long and a short in the same pass. But long bursts are fired in full-auto mode, while short bursts are fired in burst mode. This means that to fire them both in the same phase, you must spend a free action - if you're smartlinked - to change fire modes. Correct?

Underbarrel-mounted weapons, like grenade launchers. Such weapons have their own triggers, right? So to switch weapons, you must spend an action, wouldn't you say? A simple to switch grips, or a free to switch if you're smartlinked, and pull the trigger virtually? In such a case, is there a penalty for switching? I kinda hate to suggest it, but if there's a penalty for something as simple as switching targets, shouldn't it be worse for switching weapons?

the book clearly indicates (or at least SR4A does, haven't checked 4 but it looks pretty much the same) that you can fire short bursts with full-auto mode.



i don't see why... consider that when you're choosing a different target you're actually having to line up the shot all over again; clearly this is going to throw off your aim a little. it's entirely possible the switch from main weapon to underbarrel weapon is controlled by a switch within easy reach of either hand without removing them from the gun, and i would expect most weapons to have such a device (assuming they aren't smartlinked to begin with); it's something relatively simple to implement that can easily make the difference between someone buying your underbarrel weapon, and your major competitor's underbarrel weapon.

The only reference to firing short bursts on FA, is when firing at multiple targets, but that's not actually short bursts (where the gun is concerned), that's just for figuring damage.

Both guns use the same trigger, but use a thumb switch to toggle between the two?

Do guns have triggers in SR4? In SR3, you can fire a smartlinked gun with a mental impulse. That would be the way to go for any double weapon.

There is also voice control, but I don't think it would work in a fight. It is mainly there for distraction when you are stripped of your gun.

Not true. A) For multiple targets everything is handled like short bursts - attack and damage.

B)
So the BF mode is nearly superfluous. But for some reason, you can't call a shot on a three round burst, if the three bullets are shot from a FA weapon, but you can do a wide burst to increase damage

Wide bursts make it easier to hit. NARROW bursts increase damage.

Smartlinked guns don't need triggers to fire. A matrix command is sufficient, and you could use stuff like voice control if you attached a sensor. That said the guns still have a trigger unless you have the trigger removed, which is a fairly cheap procedure.

I don't know the rule for changing firing modes, but on the M-16, going from SA to BF is a simple flick of the thumb.

Having both BF and FA on a weapon is highly pointless. Usually governments will order weapons with BF so that less-disciplined troops won't click over to FA and spray all over the place and waste ammo. There is no reason to have both on the same weapons *shrug*

That's what the rules imply, since FA can do everything BF does. Sadly, this does not reflect on the weapons themselves. Let's face it: Ares engineers are morons.

Ares engineers can't be morons. They're the only ones selling assault rifles with recoil compensation built into the action. Now, the slapdicks who put R1 gas vents on rifles rather than go whole hog with the R3, those are the true halfwits.

I always felt that an R1 Gas Vent was something like a muzzle break/flash suppressor, a little thing that you put on the end of a barrel to redirect the gases to help push the barrel back down. They're fairly standard on most rifles.

The problem in SR is that per RAW the gas vent system cannot be upgraded or changed. By adding a gas vent 1 system in their factory weapons (mostly a problem for automatics), the corps gimp the modification opportunities.

Woops, what I wrote was a bit of a contraction. What I meant was you cannot use FA on a Called Shot, but a wide BF burst could be used in a Called Shot which increases damage.

Dakka, I don't see how the rule you quoted proves you can fire short bursts in FA mode. First of all, when you fire at multiple targets, it's treated as if you fired several short bursts for the purpose of the rules and dice rolling, but as far as your gun is concerned, you're holding down the trigger and letting ten bullets fly.

Second, the rule, Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action. This doesn't say anything about short bursts. It says you can fire bursts, and then says you can fire either long bursts or full bursts.

My question up top is about mixing short and long. I haven't seen any proof of being able to fire a short burst in FA mode. Short bursts are only mentioned in the section about BF mode.

You should be able to fire a short bursts with FA. If RAW says otherwise, then the writers fail logic forever. It is possible to fire single rounds out of a SAW (M-249), albeit it is not "easy."

well then maybe you should actually go look at the quote in context, because the burst rules found above that text are the ones for burst firing mode.

Note quite
Burst Fire (even long Burst) is a simple Action. You just need a Weapon capable of full Autofire for a long Burst,but its fired in Burst Mode(simple Action).

HokaHey
Medicineman

You simply switch the Barrells
I Modified lots of Weapons .Can you tell me the Page for the RAW that Gas Vents can't be changed ?

with a curiopus Dance
Medicineman

Well, from a rules stand point the Ares boys are morons, but if we assume for a moment that the Ares engineers live in the real world and don't actually look closely at the abstractions and mechanics of the world around them, then I think it makes sense sometimes to have both options. Burst fire is very handy for poorly trained soldiers or when ammo conservation is key. Full auto obviously is useful in many other ways. Having both be an OPTION could be useful to many people in the real world.

Of course, if the Ares engineers were smart enough to develop "peel back the curtain of rules" tech and say "hey, no check is ever required to conserve ammo! Screw this Burst Fire drek!" then yeah, they'd be morons. But I personally hope nobody gets so 4th wall breaking as to discover said technology.

That text is found in the section headed "FULL-AUTO MODE". Every rule regarding bursts that is found in the "BURST-FIRE MODE" section talks about recoil of -2, and damage of +2. Not a word about long bursts. The FA section has subsections on "LONG BURSTS" and "FULL BURSTS".



I would like to believe this, but I don't see a rule for it. Can you make a case, ruleswise?


Next question, IRL, what is the mechanism for changing the size of your burst? Hold down the trigger for a different period of time? A switch? Punch a number on a keypad?

The problem is that if FA is an option, there is nothing to stop the poorly trained soldier from skipping BF and just cutting loose on FA. So, your argument doesn't work...

Once again for clarity. Emphasis mine:
And now the section above:


Sure

In BF the weapon stops after a certain amount of bullets fired. In FA you have to hold down the trigger as long as you want the weapon to fire. The weapon otherwise only stops if the magazine/belt is empty.

@Music man: IRL there are also weapons even assault rifles that only have SA and BF.

yes. and as Dakka Dakka just pointed out, it refers you to the section above. which is the regular burst section for burst firing weapons. which means that if the rules tell you it can do bursts just like the section above (which just so happens to be the section on burst firing bursts) as well as long bursts, then that would seem to heavily imply that they mean you can do regular bursts (or short bursts, or burst fire bursts, or three-round-bursts, or whatever other name you wish to use for them) using full auto fire. because otherwise they wouldn't tell you you can do that exact kind of burst in the full-auto section.

like i said, go read it in context. it's all right there, in plain english. (presumably, if you have the book in another language, it's actually in that other language, but i can't vouch for that)

I'm well aware of that, the M-16 that they give us in the army is one such assault rifle. My point was that the SA/BF combination was invented to keep undisciplined soldiers from cutting loose and wasting ammo (that and anything going FA tends to attract alot of return fire). The BF prevents a soldier from doing that.

However, a trained soldier can use an FA weapon with a little more finesse, and does not need the 2/3 shot limit on the sear. For such a soldier the BF setting as pointless as he has the ability to control the FA to get as much firepower as he needs per pull.

So, my point was, that having a SA/BF/FA firearm is pointless, as someone who can use the FA setting properly won't need the BF setting and someone who needs to be using the BF setting should not have the temptation of misusing the FA.

by Arsenal "if an off-the-rack weapons that come with certain upgrades such as smart...
it is assumed those upgrades are modifications instead of accessories"
"Once a firearm hold a modification a particular type it can not not be
further equipped with accessory (Modification not mentioned!) of that type..
..so RAI/RAW off-the rack gas-vent I can be upgraded to gas-vent 3 (modification).. just pay to yens and 2 slots..

"Once a firearm hold a modification a particular type it can not not be
further equipped with accessory (Modification not mentioned!) of that type..
It means You can't have a second Mod in the same slot (no two Gasvents in one Barrell) but that doesn't mean that you can't change it !
Geas vent I out and Gas vent III in

HokaHey
Medicineman

exactly!!

I'm not seeing anything in 4E, 4A or Arsenal about having to spend an action to switch targets. If there is, though, it seems a silly rule. I'm not much for Knockdown either.

Personally, for underbarrel weapons, I always imagined that there's a separate button or something on the gun, similar to The House of the Dead 4 having a button on the side of the gun for grenades. But I can't find anything on RAW for it.

Edit: Removed "Raw Rules" Tautology

It's in the description of the gas vent in the gear section: "once installed, they cannot be removed".

That's true, there is no rule about that. There's a dice penalty. I read back through this post, and I'm not sure why you bring it up.


Thanks, good info. This indicates that (regardless of BF- or FA-mode) you'd have to switch modes of some kind to tell the gun how many bullets to stop after.

Dakka and Jaid, thanks for your clarification. I still disagree with your interpretation of the rules, but I understand why you think that. (Jaid, telling me to read it in context was no help, since I wasn't sure what context you were indicating.) Now let me explain why I disagree with you.

The Burst-Fire Mode section talks about how bursts work. It only mentions short bursts. It doesn't call them short bursts, though. It just tells you that in burst-fire mode there are three bullets. It talks about wide bursts and narrow bursts, and tells you all the rules for them. Then...

The Full-Auto Mode section talks about long bursts and full bursts. It says "... to fire bursts as noted above." I assumed this to be shorthand for how bursts work, rather than meaning that you can fire three-round bursts. However, now I understand that the exact wording is "Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action." I hadn't caught the word "also" before.

So that indicates your understanding is correct.

However, for realism, I would stick to my above reasoning that it takes an action (probably a free) to switch burst rates. Any thoughts on that?

A BF weapon only fires either 2, 3 (most common), or 4 rounds. You can't change it because that is how the weapon mechanically works.

If you are firing FA, then however long you hold down the trigger determines how many bullets come out. If you just tap it, you'll 2 or 3; if you hang on to, you'll get the entire mag... and everything in between.

While this does seem to screw me over (see my sig, I'm only currently able to use the base book SR4), anyone with Arsenal wouldn't have a problem since it offers expanded rules on modifying weapons. In those rules starting around p 148, any of the existing accessories that are stock are treated as modifications which the book treats differently. There are specific rules for both adding and removing them. So Arsenal specifically makes those lame Gas Vent 2 addons the manufacturers seem to like to waste on weapons in the BBB replaceable with mods that are actually useful.

(IMO) in off-the-rack weapons those upgrades are not "installed", they are build in modifications (removable)
and so it seems are not follow rules anyway (gas-vent in Auto-Assault 16 shotgun and Hammerli 620S pistol are Big no no..but
there those are..)