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> Stealth Stacking, Powers, spells, skills and gear stacking
Cheshyr
post Oct 16 2009, 09:30 PM
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It was suggested in another thread that the Concealment spirit power and the Improved Invisibility spell shouldn't stack... and rather, only the strongest of the two should be applied against stealth detection tests. I can see that. What about Chameleon armor? Or the Infiltration skill? After all, if the spirit is concealing you, why bother sneaking? I'm looking for opinions (or rules that I missed) about what stealth powers, spells, skills and gear stack. I've been seeing this fairly heavily abused lately (by myself as a player, and by my players as a GM). It'd be nice to get a final accounting for it, so everyone knows what to expect.
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anelander
post Oct 16 2009, 10:07 PM
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I think gear should be able to stack with spells..but that's just me! But two spells, I dunno, I think the strongest should be applied.

Just my input, don't know if you'll agree...
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Marwynn
post Oct 16 2009, 10:08 PM
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Concealment works by removing Perception dice.

Invisibility and the Improved version remove the person from the everyone's sight. In order to defeat it you make a Will/Int + Counterspelling test, with the spellcasting hits being the threshold. I don't see why these two wouldn't stack.

Concealment reduces the dice that would've been used to "resist" the Invisibility spell. They go hand in hand. Strongest of the two? They're not mechanically the same. Concealment is great as it also works astrally.

Even if someone sees through your Invisibility spell and the Concealment modifier, you can still use your Infiltration skill to win out and stay hidden. Chameleon Armour (or even the Camo Suit) add their penalties to visual perception tests. That is, there are no rules that say otherwise as far as I recall.

I'd stack 'em all. Improved Invisibility will have to deal with OR3+ or OR5+ against sensors and drones, so you'll need that many hits to get past it. Not uncommon to have a few cameras or drones looking around. And it's not like Invisibility removes sound, scent, heat which Concealment can kinda cover when they're Perception tests from Metahumans.

Otherwise you'll need Trid Phantasm. Replace where you're at with everything but you, removing everything. Use Concealment on that and you can comfortably sneak in your group, assuming no magical defenses.
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toturi
post Oct 17 2009, 12:16 AM
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Remember that Invisibility and its brother Imp Invis doesn't actually apply a Perception modifier. It is resisted by Willpower/Intuition + Counterspelling. The target can still be detected via other means - all this spell does when you fail to resist it is perhaps remove the Visual specialisation of Perception. You can still Perceive the target by other means and your Perception dice pool is not reduced(except if you have vision based mods like specialisation, vision enhancement, etc).

The only reduction in dice pool is against attacks.
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Adarael
post Oct 17 2009, 01:08 AM
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Primarily because no other tech/magic combos - such as perception-enhancing effects between magic and tech, initiative-increasing magic, attribute-enhancing spells - stack in such a fashion. And allowing it leads to some rules idiocy, such as it being trivially easy to remain invisible while it being nigh impossible for anyone to spot such inviso'd people. \

And if I allowed that, I'd not only break the other magic/tech interactions in the game, but I'd have to start using that kind of shit for the opposition, and nobody likes to hear "Okay, roll perception. You're down 20 dice - 6 for Invisibility, 6 for ruthenium polymers, 8 for Concealment." To which players would say, "Well, I'm glad I have Enhance Vision, Improved Perception, these eye mods, and technical gizmo whatever!" And then I'd have to say, "Yeah, but that spell doesn't work with the cyberware or the adept power, as per enhancement spells everywhere else in the game. Nor does Improved Perception work with your cyber, as it states this. And that technical gizmo doesn't either. So that leaves you with what?" And then they'd say, "Oh, well, with my Intuition of 9, and my Perceptio of 6, and my Attention CoProcessor and my Improved Perception, I have... 1 die."

And that game would suck.

Edit: Other things you are not explicitly forbidden from doing by the rules: Wearing camoflauge clothing with a chameleon suit over it, and getting the bonus from both! Or casting a silence spell while using an ultrasound emitter! DOUBLE WHAT.

Sorry, Cheshyr, I missed half your question. The reason you only want to apply one sense-based penalty is above. Concealment is a wierd case, but unless you do this it causes problems. The reason you want to still use infiltration is this: the enemy still rolls to sense you.

Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.
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toturi
post Oct 17 2009, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Oct 17 2009, 09:08 AM) *
Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.

I think that is incorrect. You'd lose 3 dice due to Enhanced Vision being defeated by Improved Invis. You still have 4+4=8 dice left.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 17 2009, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Oct 16 2009, 07:08 PM) *
Primarily because no other tech/magic combos - such as perception-enhancing effects between magic and tech, initiative-increasing magic, attribute-enhancing spells - stack in such a fashion. And allowing it leads to some rules idiocy, such as it being trivially easy to remain invisible while it being nigh impossible for anyone to spot such inviso'd people. \

And if I allowed that, I'd not only break the other magic/tech interactions in the game, but I'd have to start using that kind of shit for the opposition, and nobody likes to hear "Okay, roll perception. You're down 20 dice - 6 for Invisibility, 6 for ruthenium polymers, 8 for Concealment." To which players would say, "Well, I'm glad I have Enhance Vision, Improved Perception, these eye mods, and technical gizmo whatever!" And then I'd have to say, "Yeah, but that spell doesn't work with the cyberware or the adept power, as per enhancement spells everywhere else in the game. Nor does Improved Perception work with your cyber, as it states this. And that technical gizmo doesn't either. So that leaves you with what?" And then they'd say, "Oh, well, with my Intuition of 9, and my Perceptio of 6, and my Attention CoProcessor and my Improved Perception, I have... 1 die."

And that game would suck.

Edit: Other things you are not explicitly forbidden from doing by the rules: Wearing camoflauge clothing with a chameleon suit over it, and getting the bonus from both! Or casting a silence spell while using an ultrasound emitter! DOUBLE WHAT.

Sorry, Cheshyr, I missed half your question. The reason you only want to apply one sense-based penalty is above. Concealment is a wierd case, but unless you do this it causes problems. The reason you want to still use infiltration is this: the enemy still rolls to sense you.

Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.



Easy... A Milimeter wave radar system automatically detects anyone hidden by Improved Invisibility or using Camoflauge or Chameleon Suits... It is not fooled by such trickery... hell, it can even detect the change in a persons breathing (rise and fall of the chest) at 100 meters... Most, if not all security and military drones mount this equipment as part of their basic sensor package...

Just Saying...

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Marwynn
post Oct 17 2009, 02:45 AM
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Wait, what? You don't lose dice from Improved Invisibility.

Force 6 means you get a cap of 6 hits on a Spellcasting success test. That is now the threshold you have to beat. Let's say that an ultra awesome mage gets 6 amazing hits on that Force 6 Improved Invisibility spell.

So you have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and Vision Enhancements 3, giving you 11 to see things.

First, you must resist the spell. Invisibility requires a Willpower test, Improved Invisibility requires an Intuition test, both adding Counterspelling. That spellcasting test got 6 hits. This means that anyone who wants to see through the spell, resisting it, must get 6+ hits.

If you resist, you now have to make a Visual Perception Roll of 11 dice versus Infiltration/Shadowing to actually perceive the target. This of course doesn't apply to hearing the invisible guy's footsteps or smelling him.



You do not lose dice from Invisibility. Improved Invisibility bends light around the target of the spell, making it invisible instead of merely making people think the target's not there.

Also keep in mind what Ultrasound does: "pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell)" p.333 SR4A. Improved Invisibility affects technological sensors, and I believe that's really meant to say it affects the visual sensors because Improved Invisibility is a Physical (so technology too) but Single-Sense (just visual) spell.

Now does Ultrasound use photons? Nope. Don't know about millimeter-wave radar though, but again radar doesn't exactly rely on sight. If it uses photons which are bent around the Invisible target then it's just as good as a solid return no?


(Concealment removes Perception dice equal to the Magic of the Spirit, Camouflage Suits -2 Visual Perception dice, Chameleon Suits -4 Visual Perception dice)
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toturi
post Oct 17 2009, 02:55 AM
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QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 17 2009, 10:45 AM) *
Wait, what? You don't lose dice from Improved Invisibility.

Force 6 means you get a cap of 6 hits on a Spellcasting success test, Magic + Spellcasting that is. That is now the threshold you have to beat.

So you have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and Vision Enhancements 3, giving you 11 to see things. Let's say that an ultra awesome mage gets 6 amazing hits on that Force 6 Improved Invisibility spell.

You now have to make a Visual Perception Roll of 11 dice to beat (6) to resist the spell. This of course doesn't apply to hearing the invisible guy's footsteps or smelling him.

You do not lose dice from Invisibility. Improved Invisibility bends light around the target of the spell, making it invisible instead of merely making people think the target's not there.

Also keep in mind what Ultrasound does: "pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell)" p.333 SR4A. Improved Invisibility affects technological sensors, and I believe that's really meant to say it affects the visual sensors because Improved Invisibility is a Physical (so technology too) but Single-Sense (just visual) spell.

Now does Ultrasound use photons? Nope. Don't know about millimeter-wave radar though, but again radar doesn't exactly rely on sight. If it uses photons which are bent around the Invisible target then it's just as good as a solid return no?


(Concealment removes Perception dice equal to the Magic of the Spirit, Camouflage Suits -2 Visual Perception dice, Chameleon Suits -4 Visual Perception dice)

You resist an Illusion spell with either Willpower or Intuition + Counterspelling. Where are you getting the rule that you need to use your Perception to beat the spell?
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Marwynn
post Oct 17 2009, 03:02 AM
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Oh man I totally messed up there. That's what I get for trying to straighten out these Perception reducing talk.

EDIT:
Okay I cleaned it up a bit now.

Perception is still used afterwards if the target was Infiltrating/Shadowing. But the hits aren't part of that, that's purely an opposed test. All Invisibility does really is provide a Magical layer of tests that you hope your opponents can't beat.

That looks about right... back to Glee.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 17 2009, 03:09 AM
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QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 16 2009, 09:02 PM) *
Oh man I totally messed up there. That's what I get for trying to straighten out these Perception reducing talk.



No Worries, it happens... just remember that there are a lot of ways to defeat those magical tricks for passing unseen... even if you fail the resistance check...

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Marwynn
post Oct 17 2009, 03:12 AM
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Yeah, I fixed it up so that it's clearer. Was getting the Perception test with the Infiltration added to the initial resistance.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 17 2009, 03:17 AM
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I may have misunderstood you but you do not resist an Invisibility spell with INT+Perception. The resistance roll is INT(+Counterspelling) for the physical Illusion or WIL(+Counterspelling) for the mana-based one. If an observer does not resist the spell, he can still perceive the target of the spell by other senses, but he can't use any vision enhancements on this roll and only gets the information his other senses may provide. In case of combat he gets the blind fire modifier.

Concealment on the other hand subtracts dice from the observer's dice pool, similar to a chameleon suit but more powerfully. The chameleon suit only affects visual perception whereas concealmetn affects any attempt to locate the target of the power. I don't see why this shouldn't work for the target of an Invisibility spell. In case the spell is resisted, an observer gets -Magic to his dice pool to hear or smell the target. If however the target is perceived an attacker does not get any attack penalties from the Power.

Since dice pool modifiers stack unless specified otherwise, a chameleon suit and Concealment work well together.
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Marwynn
post Oct 17 2009, 03:29 AM
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Yeah that's right, Will/Int + Counterspelling depending if it's Mana or Physical. If you don't resist the spell that means the target is invisible to you, but doesn't stop your other senses which don't have to deal with the Resistance test at all.


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Cheshyr
post Oct 17 2009, 06:26 PM
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So to summarize:

Concealment reduces the oppositions dice pool by x, regardless of the type of perception being attempted.
Improved Invisibility is a pass/fail resist roll that determines if the perceiver can use visual perception bonuses.
Silence is a pass/fail resist roll that determines if the perceiver can use sound perception bonuses.
Improved Invisibility and Silence auto-succeed against inanimate objects, unmanned drones, and unmanned sensors (no resist roll).
Camo and Chameleon armors reduces the oppositions dice pool by 2/4 when attempting visual perception.
Infiltration successes are the threshold for perception success. Tie goes to the perceiver, not the infiltrator.

Complicated, but makes sense. Thanks for the help!
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 17 2009, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Oct 17 2009, 08:26 PM) *
Improved Invisibility and Silence auto-succeed against inanimate objects, unmanned drones, and unmanned sensors (no resist roll).
Not quite, you have to beat the OR of the object. It is not clear whether a drone is OR 5+ or OR 3 for its cameras and listening devices. Also there is no mention what happens if the target of the spell is perceived by a human being through technological devices.
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Mordinvan
post Oct 17 2009, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 17 2009, 12:43 PM) *
Not quite, you have to beat the OR of the object. It is not clear whether a drone is OR 5+ or OR 3 for its cameras and listening devices. Also there is no mention what happens if the target of the spell is perceived by a human being through technological devices.


If you fool the drone, it will transmit to its observer that no one was there.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 17 2009, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 18 2009, 12:05 AM) *
If you fool the drone, it will transmit to its observer that no one was there.
But what happens if the drone isn't fooled? Does the observer automatically see the target or does he have to resist the spell as well.

If the former were the case it would be a good idea to observe everything through cameras, since OR 3 is better than most people's intuition and does not rely on a friendly mage having line of sight to you to use counterspelling.

If the latter were the case recordings become interesting especially once the spell is no longer sustained.
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Mordinvan
post Oct 18 2009, 05:00 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 17 2009, 03:56 PM) *
But what happens if the drone isn't fooled? Does the observer automatically see the target or does he have to resist the spell as well.

If the former were the case it would be a good idea to observe everything through cameras, since OR 3 is better than most people's intuition and does not rely on a friendly mage having line of sight to you to use counterspelling.

If the latter were the case recordings become interesting especially once the spell is no longer sustained.


The best thing to do is have objects use clearsight + sensor rating because the idea that every camera in the universe from a poor quality security camera to the 2072 version of hubble is an OR3 is stupid.
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Marwynn
post Oct 18 2009, 05:44 AM
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The way I think of it is this, for Improved Invisibility:

The camera is attached to a security system with screens. If the spell doesn't beat the camera's Object Resistance at 3, then the camera sees through the spell and displays it for anyone to see.

The corpsec staring at the screens wouldn't have to make a resistance test because he'd be seeing something that a camera saw through. Similarly, if Improved Invisibility beat the OR3+ then the corpsec guy wouldn't get to make a resistance test as he's staring at the screen.

He makes a resistance test when he views it with is own Mark 1s (or Mark 2s as it were).

Why? Because I think of Invisibility in this way: same situation above, but the camera isn't fooled as Invisibility is a Mana spell. The camera shows the "Invisible" target clearly, but since it is transferred electronically through the camera (the spell doesn't affect technology), the corpsec guard doesn't need to make a resistance test too.

So no technological transmission of mana spells -> But yes to technological transmission of physical spells.

Just random 1:45am blathering.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2009, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 17 2009, 11:00 PM) *
The best thing to do is have objects use clearsight + sensor rating because the idea that every camera in the universe from a poor quality security camera to the 2072 version of hubble is an OR3 is stupid.


Not it is not... No matter its sophistication, the camer is still an OR3 Device... it may be a device rating of 6, but it is still OR3

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2009, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 17 2009, 11:44 PM) *
The way I think of it is this, for Improved Invisibility:

The camera is attached to a security system with screens. If the spell doesn't beat the camera's Object Resistance at 3, then the camera sees through the spell and displays it for anyone to see.

The corpsec staring at the screens wouldn't have to make a resistance test because he'd be seeing something that a camera saw through. Similarly, if Improved Invisibility beat the OR3+ then the corpsec guy wouldn't get to make a resistance test as he's staring at the screen.

He makes a resistance test when he views it with is own Mark 1s (or Mark 2s as it were).

Why? Because I think of Invisibility in this way: same situation above, but the camera isn't fooled as Invisibility is a Mana spell. The camera shows the "Invisible" target clearly, but since it is transferred electronically through the camera (the spell doesn't affect technology), the corpsec guard doesn't need to make a resistance test too.

So no technological transmission of mana spells -> But yes to technological transmission of physical spells.

Just random 1:45am blathering.



Seems Sound...

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Mordinvan
post Oct 18 2009, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2009, 08:06 AM) *
Not it is not... No matter its sophistication, the camer is still an OR3 Device... it may be a device rating of 6, but it is still OR3

Keep the Faith


A camera can either be am 1850's style flash camera or a 2072 orbital survey camera. If you're going to tell me both are of equal sophistication, then I am going to suggest your categories of sophistication are a little too broad.
Under that sort of ruling, a computer based on vacuum tubes running the first artillery programs would be as 'sophisticated' as Deus in a mainframe.

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Mordinvan
post Oct 18 2009, 08:36 PM
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double post
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MikeKozar
post Oct 18 2009, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2009, 08:06 AM) *
Not it is not... No matter its sophistication, the camer is still an OR3 Device... it may be a device rating of 6, but it is still OR3

Keep the Faith


Can someone give an example of this? Are my drones rolling three dice to resist Invisibility and then get no additional roll, or are they rolling once to resist and then rolling Perception(er, Sensor+Clearsight) using only their (expensive) audio sensor suite on a fail?



Also: Shooting at invisible/concealed targets. Is this pretty much either -6 for blind fire or no penalty?


Also also: If a stealth op beats detection, and then opens fire, how do you resolve returning fire? An immediate second test with bonuses for lack of flash and sound supression?
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