Full Version: Stealth Stacking
It was suggested in another thread that the Concealment spirit power and the Improved Invisibility spell shouldn't stack... and rather, only the strongest of the two should be applied against stealth detection tests. I can see that. What about Chameleon armor? Or the Infiltration skill? After all, if the spirit is concealing you, why bother sneaking? I'm looking for opinions (or rules that I missed) about what stealth powers, spells, skills and gear stack. I've been seeing this fairly heavily abused lately (by myself as a player, and by my players as a GM). It'd be nice to get a final accounting for it, so everyone knows what to expect.
I think gear should be able to stack with spells..but that's just me! But two spells, I dunno, I think the strongest should be applied.
Just my input, don't know if you'll agree...
Just my input, don't know if you'll agree...
Concealment works by removing Perception dice.
Invisibility and the Improved version remove the person from the everyone's sight. In order to defeat it you make a Will/Int + Counterspelling test, with the spellcasting hits being the threshold. I don't see why these two wouldn't stack.
Concealment reduces the dice that would've been used to "resist" the Invisibility spell. They go hand in hand. Strongest of the two? They're not mechanically the same. Concealment is great as it also works astrally.
Even if someone sees through your Invisibility spell and the Concealment modifier, you can still use your Infiltration skill to win out and stay hidden. Chameleon Armour (or even the Camo Suit) add their penalties to visual perception tests. That is, there are no rules that say otherwise as far as I recall.
I'd stack 'em all. Improved Invisibility will have to deal with OR3+ or OR5+ against sensors and drones, so you'll need that many hits to get past it. Not uncommon to have a few cameras or drones looking around. And it's not like Invisibility removes sound, scent, heat which Concealment can kinda cover when they're Perception tests from Metahumans.
Otherwise you'll need Trid Phantasm. Replace where you're at with everything but you, removing everything. Use Concealment on that and you can comfortably sneak in your group, assuming no magical defenses.
Invisibility and the Improved version remove the person from the everyone's sight. In order to defeat it you make a Will/Int + Counterspelling test, with the spellcasting hits being the threshold. I don't see why these two wouldn't stack.
Concealment reduces the dice that would've been used to "resist" the Invisibility spell. They go hand in hand. Strongest of the two? They're not mechanically the same. Concealment is great as it also works astrally.
Even if someone sees through your Invisibility spell and the Concealment modifier, you can still use your Infiltration skill to win out and stay hidden. Chameleon Armour (or even the Camo Suit) add their penalties to visual perception tests. That is, there are no rules that say otherwise as far as I recall.
I'd stack 'em all. Improved Invisibility will have to deal with OR3+ or OR5+ against sensors and drones, so you'll need that many hits to get past it. Not uncommon to have a few cameras or drones looking around. And it's not like Invisibility removes sound, scent, heat which Concealment can kinda cover when they're Perception tests from Metahumans.
Otherwise you'll need Trid Phantasm. Replace where you're at with everything but you, removing everything. Use Concealment on that and you can comfortably sneak in your group, assuming no magical defenses.
Remember that Invisibility and its brother Imp Invis doesn't actually apply a Perception modifier. It is resisted by Willpower/Intuition + Counterspelling. The target can still be detected via other means - all this spell does when you fail to resist it is perhaps remove the Visual specialisation of Perception. You can still Perceive the target by other means and your Perception dice pool is not reduced(except if you have vision based mods like specialisation, vision enhancement, etc).
The only reduction in dice pool is against attacks.
The only reduction in dice pool is against attacks.
Primarily because no other tech/magic combos - such as perception-enhancing effects between magic and tech, initiative-increasing magic, attribute-enhancing spells - stack in such a fashion. And allowing it leads to some rules idiocy, such as it being trivially easy to remain invisible while it being nigh impossible for anyone to spot such inviso'd people. \
And if I allowed that, I'd not only break the other magic/tech interactions in the game, but I'd have to start using that kind of shit for the opposition, and nobody likes to hear "Okay, roll perception. You're down 20 dice - 6 for Invisibility, 6 for ruthenium polymers, 8 for Concealment." To which players would say, "Well, I'm glad I have Enhance Vision, Improved Perception, these eye mods, and technical gizmo whatever!" And then I'd have to say, "Yeah, but that spell doesn't work with the cyberware or the adept power, as per enhancement spells everywhere else in the game. Nor does Improved Perception work with your cyber, as it states this. And that technical gizmo doesn't either. So that leaves you with what?" And then they'd say, "Oh, well, with my Intuition of 9, and my Perceptio of 6, and my Attention CoProcessor and my Improved Perception, I have... 1 die."
And that game would suck.
Edit: Other things you are not explicitly forbidden from doing by the rules: Wearing camoflauge clothing with a chameleon suit over it, and getting the bonus from both! Or casting a silence spell while using an ultrasound emitter! DOUBLE WHAT.
Sorry, Cheshyr, I missed half your question. The reason you only want to apply one sense-based penalty is above. Concealment is a wierd case, but unless you do this it causes problems. The reason you want to still use infiltration is this: the enemy still rolls to sense you.
Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.
And if I allowed that, I'd not only break the other magic/tech interactions in the game, but I'd have to start using that kind of shit for the opposition, and nobody likes to hear "Okay, roll perception. You're down 20 dice - 6 for Invisibility, 6 for ruthenium polymers, 8 for Concealment." To which players would say, "Well, I'm glad I have Enhance Vision, Improved Perception, these eye mods, and technical gizmo whatever!" And then I'd have to say, "Yeah, but that spell doesn't work with the cyberware or the adept power, as per enhancement spells everywhere else in the game. Nor does Improved Perception work with your cyber, as it states this. And that technical gizmo doesn't either. So that leaves you with what?" And then they'd say, "Oh, well, with my Intuition of 9, and my Perceptio of 6, and my Attention CoProcessor and my Improved Perception, I have... 1 die."
And that game would suck.
Edit: Other things you are not explicitly forbidden from doing by the rules: Wearing camoflauge clothing with a chameleon suit over it, and getting the bonus from both! Or casting a silence spell while using an ultrasound emitter! DOUBLE WHAT.
Sorry, Cheshyr, I missed half your question. The reason you only want to apply one sense-based penalty is above. Concealment is a wierd case, but unless you do this it causes problems. The reason you want to still use infiltration is this: the enemy still rolls to sense you.
Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Oct 17 2009, 09:08 AM) 
Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.
I think that is incorrect. You'd lose 3 dice due to Enhanced Vision being defeated by Improved Invis. You still have 4+4=8 dice left.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Oct 16 2009, 07:08 PM)
Primarily because no other tech/magic combos - such as perception-enhancing effects between magic and tech, initiative-increasing magic, attribute-enhancing spells - stack in such a fashion. And allowing it leads to some rules idiocy, such as it being trivially easy to remain invisible while it being nigh impossible for anyone to spot such inviso'd people. \
And if I allowed that, I'd not only break the other magic/tech interactions in the game, but I'd have to start using that kind of shit for the opposition, and nobody likes to hear "Okay, roll perception. You're down 20 dice - 6 for Invisibility, 6 for ruthenium polymers, 8 for Concealment." To which players would say, "Well, I'm glad I have Enhance Vision, Improved Perception, these eye mods, and technical gizmo whatever!" And then I'd have to say, "Yeah, but that spell doesn't work with the cyberware or the adept power, as per enhancement spells everywhere else in the game. Nor does Improved Perception work with your cyber, as it states this. And that technical gizmo doesn't either. So that leaves you with what?" And then they'd say, "Oh, well, with my Intuition of 9, and my Perceptio of 6, and my Attention CoProcessor and my Improved Perception, I have... 1 die."
And that game would suck.
Edit: Other things you are not explicitly forbidden from doing by the rules: Wearing camoflauge clothing with a chameleon suit over it, and getting the bonus from both! Or casting a silence spell while using an ultrasound emitter! DOUBLE WHAT.
Sorry, Cheshyr, I missed half your question. The reason you only want to apply one sense-based penalty is above. Concealment is a wierd case, but unless you do this it causes problems. The reason you want to still use infiltration is this: the enemy still rolls to sense you.
Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.
And if I allowed that, I'd not only break the other magic/tech interactions in the game, but I'd have to start using that kind of shit for the opposition, and nobody likes to hear "Okay, roll perception. You're down 20 dice - 6 for Invisibility, 6 for ruthenium polymers, 8 for Concealment." To which players would say, "Well, I'm glad I have Enhance Vision, Improved Perception, these eye mods, and technical gizmo whatever!" And then I'd have to say, "Yeah, but that spell doesn't work with the cyberware or the adept power, as per enhancement spells everywhere else in the game. Nor does Improved Perception work with your cyber, as it states this. And that technical gizmo doesn't either. So that leaves you with what?" And then they'd say, "Oh, well, with my Intuition of 9, and my Perceptio of 6, and my Attention CoProcessor and my Improved Perception, I have... 1 die."
And that game would suck.
Edit: Other things you are not explicitly forbidden from doing by the rules: Wearing camoflauge clothing with a chameleon suit over it, and getting the bonus from both! Or casting a silence spell while using an ultrasound emitter! DOUBLE WHAT.
Sorry, Cheshyr, I missed half your question. The reason you only want to apply one sense-based penalty is above. Concealment is a wierd case, but unless you do this it causes problems. The reason you want to still use infiltration is this: the enemy still rolls to sense you.
Say you wanna sneak by me and you're invisible via a Force 6 Improved Invisbility spell. Say I have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and rating 3 enhanced vision in my cybereyes. That gives me 11 dice. I lose 6 dice to roll to see you, but if I roll any successes at all on my remaining 5 dice, I sense you're there. Or at least that something is there - I need more than one to say more than "Something is happening there." If you roll Infiltration, however, I have to beat your successes.
Easy... A Milimeter wave radar system automatically detects anyone hidden by Improved Invisibility or using Camoflauge or Chameleon Suits... It is not fooled by such trickery... hell, it can even detect the change in a persons breathing (rise and fall of the chest) at 100 meters... Most, if not all security and military drones mount this equipment as part of their basic sensor package...
Just Saying...
Keep the Faith
Wait, what? You don't lose dice from Improved Invisibility.
Force 6 means you get a cap of 6 hits on a Spellcasting success test. That is now the threshold you have to beat. Let's say that an ultra awesome mage gets 6 amazing hits on that Force 6 Improved Invisibility spell.
So you have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and Vision Enhancements 3, giving you 11 to see things.
First, you must resist the spell. Invisibility requires a Willpower test, Improved Invisibility requires an Intuition test, both adding Counterspelling. That spellcasting test got 6 hits. This means that anyone who wants to see through the spell, resisting it, must get 6+ hits.
If you resist, you now have to make a Visual Perception Roll of 11 dice versus Infiltration/Shadowing to actually perceive the target. This of course doesn't apply to hearing the invisible guy's footsteps or smelling him.
You do not lose dice from Invisibility. Improved Invisibility bends light around the target of the spell, making it invisible instead of merely making people think the target's not there.
Also keep in mind what Ultrasound does: "pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell)" p.333 SR4A. Improved Invisibility affects technological sensors, and I believe that's really meant to say it affects the visual sensors because Improved Invisibility is a Physical (so technology too) but Single-Sense (just visual) spell.
Now does Ultrasound use photons? Nope. Don't know about millimeter-wave radar though, but again radar doesn't exactly rely on sight. If it uses photons which are bent around the Invisible target then it's just as good as a solid return no?
(Concealment removes Perception dice equal to the Magic of the Spirit, Camouflage Suits -2 Visual Perception dice, Chameleon Suits -4 Visual Perception dice)
Force 6 means you get a cap of 6 hits on a Spellcasting success test. That is now the threshold you have to beat. Let's say that an ultra awesome mage gets 6 amazing hits on that Force 6 Improved Invisibility spell.
So you have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and Vision Enhancements 3, giving you 11 to see things.
First, you must resist the spell. Invisibility requires a Willpower test, Improved Invisibility requires an Intuition test, both adding Counterspelling. That spellcasting test got 6 hits. This means that anyone who wants to see through the spell, resisting it, must get 6+ hits.
If you resist, you now have to make a Visual Perception Roll of 11 dice versus Infiltration/Shadowing to actually perceive the target. This of course doesn't apply to hearing the invisible guy's footsteps or smelling him.
You do not lose dice from Invisibility. Improved Invisibility bends light around the target of the spell, making it invisible instead of merely making people think the target's not there.
Also keep in mind what Ultrasound does: "pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell)" p.333 SR4A. Improved Invisibility affects technological sensors, and I believe that's really meant to say it affects the visual sensors because Improved Invisibility is a Physical (so technology too) but Single-Sense (just visual) spell.
Now does Ultrasound use photons? Nope. Don't know about millimeter-wave radar though, but again radar doesn't exactly rely on sight. If it uses photons which are bent around the Invisible target then it's just as good as a solid return no?
(Concealment removes Perception dice equal to the Magic of the Spirit, Camouflage Suits -2 Visual Perception dice, Chameleon Suits -4 Visual Perception dice)
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 17 2009, 10:45 AM)
Wait, what? You don't lose dice from Improved Invisibility.
Force 6 means you get a cap of 6 hits on a Spellcasting success test, Magic + Spellcasting that is. That is now the threshold you have to beat.
So you have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and Vision Enhancements 3, giving you 11 to see things. Let's say that an ultra awesome mage gets 6 amazing hits on that Force 6 Improved Invisibility spell.
You now have to make a Visual Perception Roll of 11 dice to beat (6) to resist the spell. This of course doesn't apply to hearing the invisible guy's footsteps or smelling him.
You do not lose dice from Invisibility. Improved Invisibility bends light around the target of the spell, making it invisible instead of merely making people think the target's not there.
Also keep in mind what Ultrasound does: "pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell)" p.333 SR4A. Improved Invisibility affects technological sensors, and I believe that's really meant to say it affects the visual sensors because Improved Invisibility is a Physical (so technology too) but Single-Sense (just visual) spell.
Now does Ultrasound use photons? Nope. Don't know about millimeter-wave radar though, but again radar doesn't exactly rely on sight. If it uses photons which are bent around the Invisible target then it's just as good as a solid return no?
(Concealment removes Perception dice equal to the Magic of the Spirit, Camouflage Suits -2 Visual Perception dice, Chameleon Suits -4 Visual Perception dice)
Force 6 means you get a cap of 6 hits on a Spellcasting success test, Magic + Spellcasting that is. That is now the threshold you have to beat.
So you have Intuition 4, Perception 4, and Vision Enhancements 3, giving you 11 to see things. Let's say that an ultra awesome mage gets 6 amazing hits on that Force 6 Improved Invisibility spell.
You now have to make a Visual Perception Roll of 11 dice to beat (6) to resist the spell. This of course doesn't apply to hearing the invisible guy's footsteps or smelling him.
You do not lose dice from Invisibility. Improved Invisibility bends light around the target of the spell, making it invisible instead of merely making people think the target's not there.
Also keep in mind what Ultrasound does: "pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell)" p.333 SR4A. Improved Invisibility affects technological sensors, and I believe that's really meant to say it affects the visual sensors because Improved Invisibility is a Physical (so technology too) but Single-Sense (just visual) spell.
Now does Ultrasound use photons? Nope. Don't know about millimeter-wave radar though, but again radar doesn't exactly rely on sight. If it uses photons which are bent around the Invisible target then it's just as good as a solid return no?
(Concealment removes Perception dice equal to the Magic of the Spirit, Camouflage Suits -2 Visual Perception dice, Chameleon Suits -4 Visual Perception dice)
You resist an Illusion spell with either Willpower or Intuition + Counterspelling. Where are you getting the rule that you need to use your Perception to beat the spell?
Oh man I totally messed up there. That's what I get for trying to straighten out these Perception reducing talk.
EDIT:
Okay I cleaned it up a bit now.
Perception is still used afterwards if the target was Infiltrating/Shadowing. But the hits aren't part of that, that's purely an opposed test. All Invisibility does really is provide a Magical layer of tests that you hope your opponents can't beat.
That looks about right... back to Glee.
EDIT:
Okay I cleaned it up a bit now.
Perception is still used afterwards if the target was Infiltrating/Shadowing. But the hits aren't part of that, that's purely an opposed test. All Invisibility does really is provide a Magical layer of tests that you hope your opponents can't beat.
That looks about right... back to Glee.
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 16 2009, 09:02 PM)
Oh man I totally messed up there. That's what I get for trying to straighten out these Perception reducing talk.
No Worries, it happens... just remember that there are a lot of ways to defeat those magical tricks for passing unseen... even if you fail the resistance check...
Keep the Faith
Yeah, I fixed it up so that it's clearer. Was getting the Perception test with the Infiltration added to the initial resistance.
I may have misunderstood you but you do not resist an Invisibility spell with INT+Perception. The resistance roll is INT(+Counterspelling) for the physical Illusion or WIL(+Counterspelling) for the mana-based one. If an observer does not resist the spell, he can still perceive the target of the spell by other senses, but he can't use any vision enhancements on this roll and only gets the information his other senses may provide. In case of combat he gets the blind fire modifier.
Concealment on the other hand subtracts dice from the observer's dice pool, similar to a chameleon suit but more powerfully. The chameleon suit only affects visual perception whereas concealmetn affects any attempt to locate the target of the power. I don't see why this shouldn't work for the target of an Invisibility spell. In case the spell is resisted, an observer gets -Magic to his dice pool to hear or smell the target. If however the target is perceived an attacker does not get any attack penalties from the Power.
Since dice pool modifiers stack unless specified otherwise, a chameleon suit and Concealment work well together.
Concealment on the other hand subtracts dice from the observer's dice pool, similar to a chameleon suit but more powerfully. The chameleon suit only affects visual perception whereas concealmetn affects any attempt to locate the target of the power. I don't see why this shouldn't work for the target of an Invisibility spell. In case the spell is resisted, an observer gets -Magic to his dice pool to hear or smell the target. If however the target is perceived an attacker does not get any attack penalties from the Power.
Since dice pool modifiers stack unless specified otherwise, a chameleon suit and Concealment work well together.
Yeah that's right, Will/Int + Counterspelling depending if it's Mana or Physical. If you don't resist the spell that means the target is invisible to you, but doesn't stop your other senses which don't have to deal with the Resistance test at all.
So to summarize:
Concealment reduces the oppositions dice pool by x, regardless of the type of perception being attempted.
Improved Invisibility is a pass/fail resist roll that determines if the perceiver can use visual perception bonuses.
Silence is a pass/fail resist roll that determines if the perceiver can use sound perception bonuses.
Improved Invisibility and Silence auto-succeed against inanimate objects, unmanned drones, and unmanned sensors (no resist roll).
Camo and Chameleon armors reduces the oppositions dice pool by 2/4 when attempting visual perception.
Infiltration successes are the threshold for perception success. Tie goes to the perceiver, not the infiltrator.
Complicated, but makes sense. Thanks for the help!
Concealment reduces the oppositions dice pool by x, regardless of the type of perception being attempted.
Improved Invisibility is a pass/fail resist roll that determines if the perceiver can use visual perception bonuses.
Silence is a pass/fail resist roll that determines if the perceiver can use sound perception bonuses.
Improved Invisibility and Silence auto-succeed against inanimate objects, unmanned drones, and unmanned sensors (no resist roll).
Camo and Chameleon armors reduces the oppositions dice pool by 2/4 when attempting visual perception.
Infiltration successes are the threshold for perception success. Tie goes to the perceiver, not the infiltrator.
Complicated, but makes sense. Thanks for the help!
QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Oct 17 2009, 08:26 PM)
Improved Invisibility and Silence auto-succeed against inanimate objects, unmanned drones, and unmanned sensors (no resist roll).
Not quite, you have to beat the OR of the object. It is not clear whether a drone is OR 5+ or OR 3 for its cameras and listening devices. Also there is no mention what happens if the target of the spell is perceived by a human being through technological devices. QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 17 2009, 12:43 PM)
Not quite, you have to beat the OR of the object. It is not clear whether a drone is OR 5+ or OR 3 for its cameras and listening devices. Also there is no mention what happens if the target of the spell is perceived by a human being through technological devices.
If you fool the drone, it will transmit to its observer that no one was there.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 18 2009, 12:05 AM)
If you fool the drone, it will transmit to its observer that no one was there.
But what happens if the drone isn't fooled? Does the observer automatically see the target or does he have to resist the spell as well. If the former were the case it would be a good idea to observe everything through cameras, since OR 3 is better than most people's intuition and does not rely on a friendly mage having line of sight to you to use counterspelling.
If the latter were the case recordings become interesting especially once the spell is no longer sustained.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 17 2009, 03:56 PM)
But what happens if the drone isn't fooled? Does the observer automatically see the target or does he have to resist the spell as well.
If the former were the case it would be a good idea to observe everything through cameras, since OR 3 is better than most people's intuition and does not rely on a friendly mage having line of sight to you to use counterspelling.
If the latter were the case recordings become interesting especially once the spell is no longer sustained.
If the former were the case it would be a good idea to observe everything through cameras, since OR 3 is better than most people's intuition and does not rely on a friendly mage having line of sight to you to use counterspelling.
If the latter were the case recordings become interesting especially once the spell is no longer sustained.
The best thing to do is have objects use clearsight + sensor rating because the idea that every camera in the universe from a poor quality security camera to the 2072 version of hubble is an OR3 is stupid.
The way I think of it is this, for Improved Invisibility:
The camera is attached to a security system with screens. If the spell doesn't beat the camera's Object Resistance at 3, then the camera sees through the spell and displays it for anyone to see.
The corpsec staring at the screens wouldn't have to make a resistance test because he'd be seeing something that a camera saw through. Similarly, if Improved Invisibility beat the OR3+ then the corpsec guy wouldn't get to make a resistance test as he's staring at the screen.
He makes a resistance test when he views it with is own Mark 1s (or Mark 2s as it were).
Why? Because I think of Invisibility in this way: same situation above, but the camera isn't fooled as Invisibility is a Mana spell. The camera shows the "Invisible" target clearly, but since it is transferred electronically through the camera (the spell doesn't affect technology), the corpsec guard doesn't need to make a resistance test too.
So no technological transmission of mana spells -> But yes to technological transmission of physical spells.
Just random 1:45am blathering.
The camera is attached to a security system with screens. If the spell doesn't beat the camera's Object Resistance at 3, then the camera sees through the spell and displays it for anyone to see.
The corpsec staring at the screens wouldn't have to make a resistance test because he'd be seeing something that a camera saw through. Similarly, if Improved Invisibility beat the OR3+ then the corpsec guy wouldn't get to make a resistance test as he's staring at the screen.
He makes a resistance test when he views it with is own Mark 1s (or Mark 2s as it were).
Why? Because I think of Invisibility in this way: same situation above, but the camera isn't fooled as Invisibility is a Mana spell. The camera shows the "Invisible" target clearly, but since it is transferred electronically through the camera (the spell doesn't affect technology), the corpsec guard doesn't need to make a resistance test too.
So no technological transmission of mana spells -> But yes to technological transmission of physical spells.
Just random 1:45am blathering.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 17 2009, 11:00 PM)
The best thing to do is have objects use clearsight + sensor rating because the idea that every camera in the universe from a poor quality security camera to the 2072 version of hubble is an OR3 is stupid.
Not it is not... No matter its sophistication, the camer is still an OR3 Device... it may be a device rating of 6, but it is still OR3
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 17 2009, 11:44 PM)
The way I think of it is this, for Improved Invisibility:
The camera is attached to a security system with screens. If the spell doesn't beat the camera's Object Resistance at 3, then the camera sees through the spell and displays it for anyone to see.
The corpsec staring at the screens wouldn't have to make a resistance test because he'd be seeing something that a camera saw through. Similarly, if Improved Invisibility beat the OR3+ then the corpsec guy wouldn't get to make a resistance test as he's staring at the screen.
He makes a resistance test when he views it with is own Mark 1s (or Mark 2s as it were).
Why? Because I think of Invisibility in this way: same situation above, but the camera isn't fooled as Invisibility is a Mana spell. The camera shows the "Invisible" target clearly, but since it is transferred electronically through the camera (the spell doesn't affect technology), the corpsec guard doesn't need to make a resistance test too.
So no technological transmission of mana spells -> But yes to technological transmission of physical spells.
Just random 1:45am blathering.
The camera is attached to a security system with screens. If the spell doesn't beat the camera's Object Resistance at 3, then the camera sees through the spell and displays it for anyone to see.
The corpsec staring at the screens wouldn't have to make a resistance test because he'd be seeing something that a camera saw through. Similarly, if Improved Invisibility beat the OR3+ then the corpsec guy wouldn't get to make a resistance test as he's staring at the screen.
He makes a resistance test when he views it with is own Mark 1s (or Mark 2s as it were).
Why? Because I think of Invisibility in this way: same situation above, but the camera isn't fooled as Invisibility is a Mana spell. The camera shows the "Invisible" target clearly, but since it is transferred electronically through the camera (the spell doesn't affect technology), the corpsec guard doesn't need to make a resistance test too.
So no technological transmission of mana spells -> But yes to technological transmission of physical spells.
Just random 1:45am blathering.
Seems Sound...
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2009, 08:06 AM)
Not it is not... No matter its sophistication, the camer is still an OR3 Device... it may be a device rating of 6, but it is still OR3
Keep the Faith
Keep the Faith
A camera can either be am 1850's style flash camera or a 2072 orbital survey camera. If you're going to tell me both are of equal sophistication, then I am going to suggest your categories of sophistication are a little too broad.
Under that sort of ruling, a computer based on vacuum tubes running the first artillery programs would be as 'sophisticated' as Deus in a mainframe.
double post
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2009, 08:06 AM)
Not it is not... No matter its sophistication, the camer is still an OR3 Device... it may be a device rating of 6, but it is still OR3
Keep the Faith
Keep the Faith
Can someone give an example of this? Are my drones rolling three dice to resist Invisibility and then get no additional roll, or are they rolling once to resist and then rolling Perception(er, Sensor+Clearsight) using only their (expensive) audio sensor suite on a fail?
Also: Shooting at invisible/concealed targets. Is this pretty much either -6 for blind fire or no penalty?
Also also: If a stealth op beats detection, and then opens fire, how do you resolve returning fire? An immediate second test with bonuses for lack of flash and sound supression?
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Oct 18 2009, 02:09 PM)
Can someone give an example of this? Are my drones rolling three dice to resist Invisibility and then get no additional roll, or are they rolling once to resist and then rolling Perception(er, Sensor+Clearsight) using only their (expensive) audio sensor suite on a fail?
Also: Shooting at invisible/concealed targets. Is this pretty much either -6 for blind fire or no penalty?
Also also: If a stealth op beats detection, and then opens fire, how do you resolve returning fire? An immediate second test with bonuses for lack of flash and sound supression?
Also: Shooting at invisible/concealed targets. Is this pretty much either -6 for blind fire or no penalty?
Also also: If a stealth op beats detection, and then opens fire, how do you resolve returning fire? An immediate second test with bonuses for lack of flash and sound supression?
It means if the caster gets 3 or more hits, they are not visible to cameras, and if they get 5 or more hits, they are not visible to drones.
This is odd as R5 sensor packages usually contain sensors which invisibility shouldn't work on anyway...
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Oct 18 2009, 02:09 PM)
Can someone give an example of this? Are my drones rolling three dice to resist Invisibility and then get no additional roll, or are they rolling once to resist and then rolling Perception(er, Sensor+Clearsight) using only their (expensive) audio sensor suite on a fail?
Also: Shooting at invisible/concealed targets. Is this pretty much either -6 for blind fire or no penalty?
Also also: If a stealth op beats detection, and then opens fire, how do you resolve returning fire? An immediate second test with bonuses for lack of flash and sound supression?
Also: Shooting at invisible/concealed targets. Is this pretty much either -6 for blind fire or no penalty?
Also also: If a stealth op beats detection, and then opens fire, how do you resolve returning fire? An immediate second test with bonuses for lack of flash and sound supression?
It means if the caster gets 3 or more hits, they are not visible to cameras, and if they get 5 or more hits, they are not visible to drones.
This is odd as R5 sensor packages usually contain sensors which invisibility shouldn't work on anyway...
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 18 2009, 02:21 PM)
It means if the caster gets 3 or more hits, they are not visible to cameras, and if they get 5 or more hits, they are not visible to drones.
This is odd as R5 sensor packages usually contain sensors which invisibility shouldn't work on anyway...
This is odd as R5 sensor packages usually contain sensors which invisibility shouldn't work on anyway...
Sorry, I was hoping for a more specific example, let me read his back to you and see if I've got it...
The drones do not roll a 'resist' check, instead they have a threshold that the caster has to meet. If the caster meets that threshold, then we roll to detect him without using visual sensors.
No, the drones don't roll anything at all. The spell has to beat a Threshold. Cameras and the like are OR3+, Drones are OR5+.
That means that Improved Invisibility, because it's Physical, has to be cast at least Force 3 since Force caps the hits to fool a camera or Force 5 to fool drones. This is the spellcasting roll.
You know how living creatures have to beat that spellcasting hits roll to determine resistance? Think of Cameras and Drones as being awarded 2 and 4 hits against that resistance test. So you'll need to set the threshold at 3 to beat cameras or 5 for drones.
That means that Improved Invisibility, because it's Physical, has to be cast at least Force 3 since Force caps the hits to fool a camera or Force 5 to fool drones. This is the spellcasting roll.
You know how living creatures have to beat that spellcasting hits roll to determine resistance? Think of Cameras and Drones as being awarded 2 and 4 hits against that resistance test. So you'll need to set the threshold at 3 to beat cameras or 5 for drones.
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 18 2009, 05:11 PM)
No, the drones don't roll anything at all. The spell has to beat a Threshold. Cameras and the like are OR3+, Drones are OR5+.
So the caster rolls five hits and my drones will never get a chance to detect, even if I'm hot-simming it? Even if they have chemsniffers and ultrasound and positional audio sensor upgrades, five hits on Improved Invisibility takes them out of play.
Right?
Nope.
Chemsniffers smell stuff. Ultrasound sees through invisibility spells, audio sensors can pick you up.
Improved Invisibility simply removes the visual aspect. It's like an invisible guy really, you can smell him, hear him breathe, etc. Improved Invisibility is a "Single Sense" spell.
Now, Trid Phantasm can do all that. Create an empty floor area, as in what it would be if you and your heavily armed friends weren't there. You remove all traces of, well, everything from chemicals to sound to heat, etc. That, cast at Force 5, should defeat a lot of things. Keep in mind though that it is "multi-sense" so I take that to mean the five senses in their various forms. But other things aren't exactly similar to senses, at least for humans. Radar, MAD scanners, etc. Sure, all your five sense tell you that nothing's there but the radar's pinging off some very large returns.
That's up to GM interpretation, some allow it to beat every sensor system, some limit it to just the basic five in technological form.
Chemsniffers smell stuff. Ultrasound sees through invisibility spells, audio sensors can pick you up.
Improved Invisibility simply removes the visual aspect. It's like an invisible guy really, you can smell him, hear him breathe, etc. Improved Invisibility is a "Single Sense" spell.
Now, Trid Phantasm can do all that. Create an empty floor area, as in what it would be if you and your heavily armed friends weren't there. You remove all traces of, well, everything from chemicals to sound to heat, etc. That, cast at Force 5, should defeat a lot of things. Keep in mind though that it is "multi-sense" so I take that to mean the five senses in their various forms. But other things aren't exactly similar to senses, at least for humans. Radar, MAD scanners, etc. Sure, all your five sense tell you that nothing's there but the radar's pinging off some very large returns.
That's up to GM interpretation, some allow it to beat every sensor system, some limit it to just the basic five in technological form.
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 18 2009, 09:54 PM)
Nope.
Chemsniffers smell stuff. Ultrasound sees through invisibility spells, audio sensors can pick you up.
Improved Invisibility simply removes the visual aspect. It's like an invisible guy really, you can smell him, hear him breathe, etc. Improved Invisibility is a "Single Sense" spell.
Now, Trid Phantasm can do all that. Create an empty floor area, as in what it would be if you and your heavily armed friends weren't there. You remove all traces of, well, everything from chemicals to sound to heat, etc. That, cast at Force 5, should defeat a lot of things. Keep in mind though that it is "multi-sense" so I take that to mean the five senses in their various forms. But other things aren't exactly similar to senses, at least for humans. Radar, MAD scanners, etc. Sure, all your five sense tell you that nothing's there but the radar's pinging off some very large returns.
That's up to GM interpretation, some allow it to beat every sensor system, some limit it to just the basic five in technological form.
Chemsniffers smell stuff. Ultrasound sees through invisibility spells, audio sensors can pick you up.
Improved Invisibility simply removes the visual aspect. It's like an invisible guy really, you can smell him, hear him breathe, etc. Improved Invisibility is a "Single Sense" spell.
Now, Trid Phantasm can do all that. Create an empty floor area, as in what it would be if you and your heavily armed friends weren't there. You remove all traces of, well, everything from chemicals to sound to heat, etc. That, cast at Force 5, should defeat a lot of things. Keep in mind though that it is "multi-sense" so I take that to mean the five senses in their various forms. But other things aren't exactly similar to senses, at least for humans. Radar, MAD scanners, etc. Sure, all your five sense tell you that nothing's there but the radar's pinging off some very large returns.
That's up to GM interpretation, some allow it to beat every sensor system, some limit it to just the basic five in technological form.
I thougth radar and ultrasound counted as 'sound', which would mean Trid Phantasm would defeat it entirely. Is Astral Sight counted in Improved Invisibility? And Trid Phantasm only works on machines, right?
See that depends on the GM. I would say no, since Ultrasound and Radar work by bouncing things off other things. By creating a deadzone of sound something will show up.
But then that goes into the specific spell I mentioned being cast. It was meant to convey an empty space. If you created an empty space that allowed US and Radar to go through, depending on GM approval, then that's something else.
Astral sight sees right through these things. Concealment from the spirit power. Trid Phantasm ALSO works on tech, being a physical spell. It's not mutually exclusive, it's a bonus.
But then that goes into the specific spell I mentioned being cast. It was meant to convey an empty space. If you created an empty space that allowed US and Radar to go through, depending on GM approval, then that's something else.
Astral sight sees right through these things. Concealment from the spirit power. Trid Phantasm ALSO works on tech, being a physical spell. It's not mutually exclusive, it's a bonus.
I was actually asking, does Trid Phantasm work on biological eyes? Sure, all the drones and camareas missed him, but he's standing right in front of me. ;-p
QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Oct 18 2009, 07:45 PM)
I was actually asking, does Trid Phantasm work on biological eyes? Sure, all the drones and camareas missed him, but he's standing right in front of me. ;-p
I think spells are either a mind trick or a visual effect; Mana-based illusions make you think you see things, and physical illusions make the object appear to be there. It's significant since cameras can't be mind controlled. The physical illusions are equally effective on tech or eyeballs.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 18 2009, 01:36 PM)
A camera can either be am 1850's style flash camera or a 2072 orbital survey camera. If you're going to tell me both are of equal sophistication, then I am going to suggest your categories of sophistication are a little too broad.
Under that sort of ruling, a computer based on vacuum tubes running the first artillery programs would be as 'sophisticated' as Deus in a mainframe.
Under that sort of ruling, a computer based on vacuum tubes running the first artillery programs would be as 'sophisticated' as Deus in a mainframe.
Sophistication has absolutely nothing to do with it... they are both CAMERAS... thus both OR3... Please notice that advanced electronics are also OR3... You could always say thta YOUR electronics are more advanced than mine, but hat still makes them OR3 by the Rules...
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QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 18 2009, 02:21 PM)
It means if the caster gets 3 or more hits, they are not visible to cameras, and if they get 5 or more hits, they are not visible to drones.
This is odd as R5 sensor packages usually contain sensors which invisibility shouldn't work on anyway...
This is odd as R5 sensor packages usually contain sensors which invisibility shouldn't work on anyway...
Please remember that Invisibility (and Improved Invisibility) ONLY WORK ON THE VISIBLE SPECTRUM...
Radar penetrates it, Ultrasound Penetrates it, Pheremone Sensors penetrate it, there are a lot of sensors that defeat Invisibility...
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Oct 18 2009, 07:33 PM)
I thougth radar and ultrasound counted as 'sound', which would mean Trid Phantasm would defeat it entirely. Is Astral Sight counted in Improved Invisibility? And Trid Phantasm only works on machines, right?
They do not count as "Aural" Sensors (or Sound) by their strictest definition... Ultrasound is beyond normal hearing capacities of Humans and therefore most spell designs would not include it by default, but it is in that gray area, some allow it and some do not...
For you to be invisible to Radar, you would need to develop an Invisibility to Radar Spell... See the description of the Radar Systems... they specifically say that Magical Invisibility (and even technological Invisibility such as Ruthemiem Fibers) do not fool the radar sense...
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QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 18 2009, 07:40 PM)
See that depends on the GM. I would say no, since Ultrasound and Radar work by bouncing things off other things. By creating a deadzone of sound something will show up.
But then that goes into the specific spell I mentioned being cast. It was meant to convey an empty space. If you created an empty space that allowed US and Radar to go through, depending on GM approval, then that's something else.
Astral sight sees right through these things. Concealment from the spirit power. Trid Phantasm ALSO works on tech, being a physical spell. It's not mutually exclusive, it's a bonus.
But then that goes into the specific spell I mentioned being cast. It was meant to convey an empty space. If you created an empty space that allowed US and Radar to go through, depending on GM approval, then that's something else.
Astral sight sees right through these things. Concealment from the spirit power. Trid Phantasm ALSO works on tech, being a physical spell. It's not mutually exclusive, it's a bonus.
What?... Empty spaces already allow these sense modes to go through, and you cannot use an illusion of an Empty Space covering real items to fool the sensor... again, it will reflect against the REAL OBJECTS that you are covering... RAW Magical Illusions in Shadowrun do not allow for the defeat of a Radar Sensor... Nice GM's may allow you to research your own version of such a spell, but I would expect it to be somewhat difficult...
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QUOTE (Cheshyr @ Oct 18 2009, 07:45 PM)
I was actually asking, does Trid Phantasm work on biological eyes? Sure, all the drones and camareas missed him, but he's standing right in front of me. ;-p
Yes, if the Target does not resist the Effect he will see it as there, however, if he were to lean against a Tactile Trid Phantasm (a Wall covering a hallway, for Example), he would fall through the Illusion into the Hallway... just because they can feel it does not mean the it is actually there...
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That's what I said. It wouldn't even be Trid Phantasm anymore either, but again some GMs have allowed it.
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 19 2009, 05:40 PM)
That's what I said. It wouldn't even be Trid Phantasm anymore either, but again some GMs have allowed it.
My Mistake, I must have misunderstood... Sorry
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I do not know how Trid Phantasm is expressed within the game world but the effect is such that the spell causes the observer(metahuman senses or technological sensors) to believe what you want it to sense. So if you were to project the illusion of an empty room when it is cluttered, the sensor should believe it is empty. That is the net effect of a high Force Illusion. Otherwise, the various checks and countermeasures built into the sensor (the more technologically sophisticated they are, the high the OR) would kick in, since the spell is unable to overcome the OR.
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 19 2009, 07:35 PM)
I do not know how Trid Phantasm is expressed within the game world but the effect is such that the spell causes the observer(metahuman senses or technological sensors) to believe what you want it to sense. So if you were to project the illusion of an empty room when it is cluttered, the sensor should believe it is empty. That is the net effect of a high Force Illusion. Otherwise, the various checks and countermeasures built into the sensor (the more technologically sophisticated they are, the high the OR) would kick in, since the spell is unable to overcome the OR.
However, there are some sensors (primarily Radar and/or Ultrasonic) that are completely immune to the trickery of magical illusions, no matter what the Force of said spell is, or how many hits that are achieved... and are generally inplanted on drones of Medium size or larger, all the way up to and including all standard vehicle Sensor packages
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 20 2009, 10:40 AM)
However, there are some sensors (primarily Radar and/or Ultrasonic) that are completely immune to the trickery of magical illusions, no matter what the Force of said spell is, or how many hits that are achieved... and are generally inplanted on drones of Medium size or larger, all the way up to and including all standard vehicle Sensor packages
Keep the Faith
Keep the Faith
Do the rules for Radar and Ultrasonic actually say that? I know Radar/Ultrasound stops Imp Invis, but that is the limitation of Imp Invis, not that Radar or Ultrasound is actually immune to Illusion spells.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 19 2009, 05:28 PM)
Please remember that Invisibility (and Improved Invisibility) ONLY WORK ON THE VISIBLE SPECTRUM...
Radar penetrates it, Ultrasound Penetrates it, Pheremone Sensors penetrate it, there are a lot of sensors that defeat Invisibility...
Keep the Faith
Radar penetrates it, Ultrasound Penetrates it, Pheremone Sensors penetrate it, there are a lot of sensors that defeat Invisibility...
Keep the Faith
Show me a drone that doesn't have ultra sound please.
Even R1 sensor pods in cars have it.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 19 2009, 07:40 PM)
However, there are some sensors (primarily Radar and/or Ultrasonic) that are completely immune to the trickery of magical illusions, no matter what the Force of said spell is, or how many hits that are achieved... and are generally inplanted on drones of Medium size or larger, all the way up to and including all standard vehicle Sensor packages
Keep the Faith
Keep the Faith
Your painting with a rather broad brush there. I think that because improved invis is a single sense spell it is pierced by sonar, but multi sense illusions would be able to counter sonar, as they can also deal with sound.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 19 2009, 08:43 PM)
Show me a drone that doesn't have ultra sound please.
Even R1 sensor pods in cars have it.
Even R1 sensor pods in cars have it.
Er...I know it makes sense, and I install it in every drone that I can, but it costs 1000y. A Steel Lynx is listed at 5000, and a FlySpy is 2000. There's no way that they come stock with a 1000 sensor.
Unless you mean a motion detector and not the UltraSound vision mod? That might be a good fallback - if they don't see anything but their motion sensor is going crazy, it's time to dial 1-800-WIZ-ZARD. Looks like they go for 50Y, and it would make a lot of sense to just slap one of those in every sensor package to get some cheap mage spotters.
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 16 2009, 07:32 PM)
I think that is incorrect. You'd lose 3 dice due to Enhanced Vision being defeated by Improved Invis. You still have 4+4=8 dice left.
Oh my god, I cannot believe I have been doing invisbility wrong the WHOLE time I've been running SR4. My automatic SR3 instincts kicked in and just were like, "No, every hit on the invisibility is a penalty to see them! Everyone knows that!"
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 19 2009, 08:51 PM)
Do the rules for Radar and Ultrasonic actually say that? I know Radar/Ultrasound stops Imp Invis, but that is the limitation of Imp Invis, not that Radar or Ultrasound is actually immune to Illusion spells.
Don't remember the actual quote, and am away from book currently, but it states that the are immune to visual trickery and completely ignore any such attempts... Improved Invisibility is then given as an example of such trickery... but remember, illusions have no actual substance, which is why these pieces of technology would ignore them... the trickery is strictly visual in nature (though you can indeed have aura, thermal, olfactive, gustatative or tactile components, the scene is still not manifest as physicality)...
Hope that that helps out some Toturi...
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