 Magic and technology, Who started the rumor? |
  |
 Jan 30 2004, 12:11 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153  |
<RANT>
I've noticed more than one person think that magic and technology in SR don't mix. My question is... who started this rumor? At no point in the rules in MITS or even core does it say that they can't mix. Core rules even boldly states that a magical focus could be a car, credstick and computer. </RANT> Now that that's out of my system, what do you think? :) |
 |
 
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 12:15 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,458 Joined: 22-March 03 From: I am a figment of my own imagination. Member No.: 4,302 |
Ok... sad images of NASCAR Adepts with power foci cars just ran through my head...
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 01:12 PM
Post
#3
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
ROTFL :D |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 01:52 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 25-January 04 From: Puyallup, WA Member No.: 6,016 |
If you can have NASCAR adepts, then trailer park shamans arent too far behind. I wonder what the lodge rating of a double wide is? Is Bud Lite a valid totem?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 02:24 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
It's not a rumour, it's just what many of the game mechanics are geared towards. The adepts could drive around focus cars. IIRC, however, they would need to be weapon foci for adepts to use them, and it'd be interesting to give one of them to a mage with astral projection.
The Car/Focus example, if you take the foci creation rules into account, is a further example of how magic and complex technology don't mix. Essentially: the foci would be either extremely hard to make, or very, very, expencive. Why? By the foci creation rules in MitS: The OR is added to the base TN for the enchanting test. As cars tend to have very high ORs, calculated using 8+Body+(Armor/2), your average performance car has a body of 3 (don't have books with me, correct me if I'm wrong) meaning the OR as a whole would be 11 assuming no armor. That is significantly harder to enchant than something like a block of unprocessed wood which has an OR of 3. You could lower this TN if you gave the car alloy wheels, however. Specifically Orichalcum wheels. If you were willing to spend 704k :nuyen: for 8 units of orichalcum then it would be about the same difficulty. Essentially: The rules say how the world works, they dictate what your characters can and can't do (or rather, what is easy or hard to do). There are many examples of how fusing magic and technology makes things more difficult: Essence loss from Cyberware makes characters harder to affect with heal spells, Cyber/Bioware causes magic loss, something with a high OR (a highly processed object) is harder to affect with magic, Virgin/Handmade telesma are easier to enchant than machined telesma. Is that not a general trend towards Magic and technology not mixing? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 02:25 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 402 Joined: 23-April 03 From: London, UK Member No.: 4,491 |
As soon as there's a really good Translation Spell, my character's going to use his glasses as a spell lock! And I mean R/W as well as ordinary speech!
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 02:52 PM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Orichalcum doesn't have to be specifically used in the creation of the object... with the exception of weapon foci... just used up in the enchanting process. So, while it can be difficult, it's not impossible, nor against the rules to mix both together. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 03:15 PM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Well. It depends on what you mean by mixing the two together. You can't get cyberware that dosen't make you lose magic points, for example. i think you could make your cyberarm into a power focus though. The "can be difficult" section of that statement also includes a number of nigh-impossible tasks.
Also: Although orichalcum does not need to be used, it makes the job a helluba lot easier (which is what I was talking about) and if you are using Orichalcum why not use it in the telesma? It looks cool. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 03:25 PM
Post
#9
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
What I meant was that the Orichalcum does not have to actually be within the item itself. The Orichalcum, just like any radicals used, can just be "burned up" in the enchanting process. While I agree it's cool if you can find ways to work the radicals into the item (something I always do), you don't have to. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 30 2004, 03:36 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 9-December 03 From: Greenville, SC Member No.: 5,889 |
Well, the Object Resistance rules certainly indicate that Magic and High Tech don't mix too well. The Enchanting rules confirm this, since the base target number for an enchanting test is the Object Resistance of the item being enchanted.
I agree that they CAN mix, but it's much more difficult to affect manufactured high tech goods than natural or handmade objects. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 04:07 PM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
The Object Resistance rules make it difficult to make a weapon focus sword, let alone something high tech. Technically, a modern battle ready sword would have a resistance of around 8. That makes enchanting a 'simple' weapon focus a tad difficult since you're looking at TN 12 for a force 4 sword. This is before any reduction mods of course. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 04:56 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 8-September 03 From: Tempe, AZ Member No.: 5,596 |
im not a master of rules...yet, but I think its just hard enough to be worthwhile, reav.
And why wouldnt magic and technology be able to mix? Its all a matter of perception, right? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 05:04 PM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
No, it's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of mechanics.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 05:07 PM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Actually, with magic it IS a matter of perception. After all, it's all based on belief. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 05:12 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 8-September 03 From: Tempe, AZ Member No.: 5,596 |
holy crap, you mean to tell me i actually had a point?
:rotfl: |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 05:29 PM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Er, that's not really accurate. :D The person using magic does it based on their beliefs, but the magic follos a set of laws... Example: I can believe that im a Sayan Shaman and I don't believe I take any drain, and I believe my magic is 100x more destructive than anyone else on earth. Is that going to make me take no drain and blow up the planet? No, it makes me wrong! :D
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 05:44 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 8-September 03 From: Tempe, AZ Member No.: 5,596 |
well, true. however, theres more technology in magic than you may think:
(www.dictionary.com) 1. The application of science, especially to industrial or commercial objectives. (like math and spell formulae?) 2. The scientific method and material used to achieve a commercial or industrial objective. (like the enchanting process?) 3. Electronic or digital products and systems considered as a group: a store specializing in office technology. (so even things like desks and chairs have new technology) 4. Anthropology. The body of knowledge available to a society that is of use in fashioning implements, practicing manual arts and skills, and extracting or collecting materials. (ahh, magical guilds) Please accept my apology if anyone is offended by my postings. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 05:51 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Errr yeah, because for hermetics Magic IS it's own science, specifically Thaumateregy.
But Technology as it is used in the context of shadowrun is removed from the science of magic because Physics and Magic both follow laws, byt they aren't necessarily the same laws. :D |
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 05:56 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
But the point of the posting is that magic and technology can work together. While it can be a difficult marriage, it can be done by a competent enchanter (and frankly enough orichalcum ;) ). :D |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 06:01 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 8-September 03 From: Tempe, AZ Member No.: 5,596 |
i.e.: not me :P |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 30 2004, 06:41 PM
Post
#21
|
|||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No it isn't. As mentioned previously, belief has NOTHING whatsoever to do with it. People who can perform certain spells better than others and attribute it to a "totem" are just deluding themselves, just like the people who believe they use "psionic abilities" instead of magic. Sure, they get better results on some spells, but that's not because a mystical force is aiding them, it's because they have that ability themselves but they feel the need to explain it for some reason. ~J the Hermetic magical researcher |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 30 2004, 06:49 PM
Post
#22
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 518 Joined: 24-February 03 From: Tucson Member No.: 4,153 |
Spoken like a truly narrow minded hermetic. ;) :D |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 30 2004, 06:55 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 8-September 03 From: Tempe, AZ Member No.: 5,596 |
:eek:
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 07:59 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
What word would you use then, Reaver, for the stuff that Magic does not mix well with? What word is there better than technology for things like cyberware, highly processed materials, ETC that don't mix well with magic?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 30 2004, 08:13 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
Yes, technological items could be foci, thought it would be hard to do. More to the point, the enchantment can't actually have anything to do with the item's non-magical use. You can't have a gun enchanted for a higher muzzle velocity, or a pocket secretary enchanted for greater memory. Either item could be a focus, but the enchantment wouldn't improve their normal functioning.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th April 2024 - 08:16 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.