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Reaver
<RANT>
I've noticed more than one person think that magic and technology in SR don't mix. My question is... who started this rumor? At no point in the rules in MITS or even core does it say that they can't mix. Core rules even boldly states that a magical focus could be a car, credstick and computer. </RANT>

Now that that's out of my system, what do you think? smile.gif
Digital Heroin
Ok... sad images of NASCAR Adepts with power foci cars just ran through my head...
Reaver
QUOTE (Digital Heroin)
Ok... sad images of NASCAR Adepts with power foci cars just ran through my head...

ROTFL biggrin.gif
PuyallupSquatter
If you can have NASCAR adepts, then trailer park shamans arent too far behind. I wonder what the lodge rating of a double wide is? Is Bud Lite a valid totem?
Lilt
It's not a rumour, it's just what many of the game mechanics are geared towards. The adepts could drive around focus cars. IIRC, however, they would need to be weapon foci for adepts to use them, and it'd be interesting to give one of them to a mage with astral projection.

The Car/Focus example, if you take the foci creation rules into account, is a further example of how magic and complex technology don't mix. Essentially: the foci would be either extremely hard to make, or very, very, expencive. Why? By the foci creation rules in MitS: The OR is added to the base TN for the enchanting test. As cars tend to have very high ORs, calculated using 8+Body+(Armor/2), your average performance car has a body of 3 (don't have books with me, correct me if I'm wrong) meaning the OR as a whole would be 11 assuming no armor. That is significantly harder to enchant than something like a block of unprocessed wood which has an OR of 3. You could lower this TN if you gave the car alloy wheels, however. Specifically Orichalcum wheels. If you were willing to spend 704k nuyen.gif for 8 units of orichalcum then it would be about the same difficulty.

Essentially: The rules say how the world works, they dictate what your characters can and can't do (or rather, what is easy or hard to do). There are many examples of how fusing magic and technology makes things more difficult: Essence loss from Cyberware makes characters harder to affect with heal spells, Cyber/Bioware causes magic loss, something with a high OR (a highly processed object) is harder to affect with magic, Virgin/Handmade telesma are easier to enchant than machined telesma. Is that not a general trend towards Magic and technology not mixing?
simonw2000
As soon as there's a really good Translation Spell, my character's going to use his glasses as a spell lock! And I mean R/W as well as ordinary speech!
Reaver
QUOTE (Lilt)
It's not a rumour, it's just what many of the game mechanics are geared towards. The adepts could drive around focus cars. IIRC, however, they would need to be weapon foci for adepts to use them, and it'd be interesting to give one of them to a mage with astral projection.

The Car/Focus example, if you take the foci creation rules into account, is a further example of how magic and complex technology don't mix. Essentially: the foci would be either extremely hard to make, or very, very, expencive. Why? By the foci creation rules in MitS: The OR is added to the base TN for the enchanting test. As cars tend to have very high ORs, calculated using 8+Body+(Armor/2), your average performance car has a body of 3 (don't have books with me, correct me if I'm wrong) meaning the OR as a whole would be 11 assuming no armor. That is significantly harder to enchant than something like a block of unprocessed wood which has an OR of 3. You could lower this TN if you gave the car alloy wheels, however. Specifically Orichalcum wheels. If you were willing to spend 704k nuyen.gif for 8 units of orichalcum then it would be about the same difficulty.

Essentially: The rules say how the world works, they dictate what your characters can and can't do (or rather, what is easy or hard to do). There are many examples of how fusing magic and technology makes things more difficult: Essence loss from Cyberware makes characters harder to affect with heal spells, Cyber/Bioware causes magic loss, something with a high OR (a highly processed object) is harder to affect with magic, Virgin/Handmade telesma are easier to enchant than machined telesma. Is that not a general trend towards Magic and technology not mixing?

Orichalcum doesn't have to be specifically used in the creation of the object... with the exception of weapon foci... just used up in the enchanting process. So, while it can be difficult, it's not impossible, nor against the rules to mix both together.
Lilt
QUOTE (Reaver)
Orichalcum doesn't have to be specifically used in the creation of the object... with the exception of weapon foci... just used up in the enchanting process. So, while it can be difficult, it's not impossible, nor against the rules to mix both together.
Well. It depends on what you mean by mixing the two together. You can't get cyberware that dosen't make you lose magic points, for example. i think you could make your cyberarm into a power focus though. The "can be difficult" section of that statement also includes a number of nigh-impossible tasks.

Also: Although orichalcum does not need to be used, it makes the job a helluba lot easier (which is what I was talking about) and if you are using Orichalcum why not use it in the telesma? It looks cool.
Reaver
QUOTE (Lilt)
QUOTE (Reaver)
Orichalcum doesn't have to be specifically used in the creation of the object... with the exception of weapon foci... just used up in the enchanting process. So, while it can be difficult, it's not impossible, nor against the rules to mix both together.
Well. It depends on what you mean by mixing the two together. You can't get cyberware that dosen't make you lose magic points, for example. i think you could make your cyberarm into a power focus though. The "can be difficult" section of that statement also includes a number of nigh-impossible tasks.

QUOTE


Also: Although orichalcum does not need to be used, it makes the job a helluba lot easier (which is what I was talking about) and if you are using Orichalcum why not use it in the telesma? It looks cool.


What I meant was that the Orichalcum does not have to actually be within the item itself. The Orichalcum, just like any radicals used, can just be "burned up" in the enchanting process. While I agree it's cool if you can find ways to work the radicals into the item (something I always do), you don't have to.
Mal-2
Well, the Object Resistance rules certainly indicate that Magic and High Tech don't mix too well. The Enchanting rules confirm this, since the base target number for an enchanting test is the Object Resistance of the item being enchanted.

I agree that they CAN mix, but it's much more difficult to affect manufactured high tech goods than natural or handmade objects.
Reaver
QUOTE (Mal-2)
Well, the Object Resistance rules certainly indicate that Magic and High Tech don't mix too well. The Enchanting rules confirm this, since the base target number for an enchanting test is the Object Resistance of the item being enchanted.

I agree that they CAN mix, but it's much more difficult to affect manufactured high tech goods than natural or handmade objects.

The Object Resistance rules make it difficult to make a weapon focus sword, let alone something high tech. Technically, a modern battle ready sword would have a resistance of around 8. That makes enchanting a 'simple' weapon focus a tad difficult since you're looking at TN 12 for a force 4 sword. This is before any reduction mods of course.
boodah
im not a master of rules...yet, but I think its just hard enough to be worthwhile, reav.

And why wouldnt magic and technology be able to mix? Its all a matter of perception, right?
BitBasher
No, it's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of mechanics.
Reaver
QUOTE (BitBasher)
No, it's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of mechanics.

Actually, with magic it IS a matter of perception. After all, it's all based on belief. wink.gif
boodah
holy crap, you mean to tell me i actually had a point?
rotfl.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE
Actually, with magic it IS a matter of perception. After all, it's all based on belief.
Er, that's not really accurate. biggrin.gif The person using magic does it based on their beliefs, but the magic follos a set of laws... Example: I can believe that im a Sayan Shaman and I don't believe I take any drain, and I believe my magic is 100x more destructive than anyone else on earth. Is that going to make me take no drain and blow up the planet? No, it makes me wrong! biggrin.gif
boodah
well, true. however, theres more technology in magic than you may think:

(www.dictionary.com)

1. The application of science, especially to industrial or commercial objectives.
(like math and spell formulae?)

2. The scientific method and material used to achieve a commercial or industrial objective.
(like the enchanting process?)

3. Electronic or digital products and systems considered as a group: a store specializing in office technology.
(so even things like desks and chairs have new technology)

4. Anthropology. The body of knowledge available to a society that is of use in fashioning implements, practicing manual arts and skills, and extracting or collecting materials.
(ahh, magical guilds)



Please accept my apology if anyone is offended by my postings.
BitBasher
Errr yeah, because for hermetics Magic IS it's own science, specifically Thaumateregy.

But Technology as it is used in the context of shadowrun is removed from the science of magic because Physics and Magic both follow laws, byt they aren't necessarily the same laws. biggrin.gif
Reaver
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Errr yeah, because for hermetics Magic IS it's own science, specifically Thaumateregy.

But Technology as it is used in the context of shadowrun is removed from the science of magic because Physics and Magic both follow laws, byt they aren't necessarily the same laws. biggrin.gif

But the point of the posting is that magic and technology can work together. While it can be a difficult marriage, it can be done by a competent enchanter (and frankly enough orichalcum wink.gif ). biggrin.gif
boodah
QUOTE (Reaver)
...competent enchanter...

i.e.:
not me
nyahnyah.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Reaver)
QUOTE (BitBasher)
No, it's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of mechanics.

Actually, with magic it IS a matter of perception. After all, it's all based on belief. wink.gif

No it isn't. As mentioned previously, belief has NOTHING whatsoever to do with it. People who can perform certain spells better than others and attribute it to a "totem" are just deluding themselves, just like the people who believe they use "psionic abilities" instead of magic. Sure, they get better results on some spells, but that's not because a mystical force is aiding them, it's because they have that ability themselves but they feel the need to explain it for some reason.

~J the Hermetic magical researcher
Reaver
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Reaver @ Jan 30 2004, 12:07 PM)
QUOTE (BitBasher)
No, it's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of mechanics.

Actually, with magic it IS a matter of perception. After all, it's all based on belief. wink.gif

No it isn't. As mentioned previously, belief has NOTHING whatsoever to do with it. People who can perform certain spells better than others and attribute it to a "totem" are just deluding themselves, just like the people who believe they use "psionic abilities" instead of magic. Sure, they get better results on some spells, but that's not because a mystical force is aiding them, it's because they have that ability themselves but they feel the need to explain it for some reason.

~J the Hermetic magical researcher

Spoken like a truly narrow minded hermetic. wink.gif biggrin.gif
boodah
eek.gif
Lilt
What word would you use then, Reaver, for the stuff that Magic does not mix well with? What word is there better than technology for things like cyberware, highly processed materials, ETC that don't mix well with magic?
Panzergeist
Yes, technological items could be foci, thought it would be hard to do. More to the point, the enchantment can't actually have anything to do with the item's non-magical use. You can't have a gun enchanted for a higher muzzle velocity, or a pocket secretary enchanted for greater memory. Either item could be a focus, but the enchantment wouldn't improve their normal functioning.
boodah
Thats kinda funny. The technomagic items ive seen created (in game) are all basically spells that are anchored to different devices so that even mundanes can use them. Who said anything about using spells to increase things beyond the realm of physical possiblity?
BitBasher
QUOTE
The technomagic items ive seen created (in game) are all basically spells that are anchored to different devices so that even mundanes can use them.
That's not technomagic, that's just magic. No technology involved. It doesnt matter if your armor spell is attached to a secure jacket or a cumquat, it works just the same. The item is irrelevant in that sense. It's just anchoring. No techno involved.
KarmaInferno
Huh.

I wonder what the denizens would make of a foci Apache attack helicopter zooming about the metaplanes?

biggrin.gif

Deep Blue
I want to see a towel weapon focus. Imagine snapping those spirits right out of existance! <snap!> <crack!>
Moonstone Spider
The effects of a yellowjacket (Don't see many Apaches in SR) weapon foci would be interesting to see. Would the user be inside and thus immune to sorcery while using the foci as with a vehicle? Could the weapon foci vehicle use it's vehicular weapons?
Reaver
QUOTE (Panzergeist)
Yes, technological items could be foci, thought it would be hard to do. More to the point, the enchantment can't actually have anything to do with the item's non-magical use. You can't have a gun enchanted for a higher muzzle velocity, or a pocket secretary enchanted for greater memory. Either item could be a focus, but the enchantment wouldn't improve their normal functioning.

Why can't you? There is nothing in the spell design rules that states that you can't. What you cannot do with spells is very clear cut. No teleportation and no time travel and no conjuring with spells. That means you COULD enchant a p-sec to have greater memeory. You could enchant a gun to have a higher muzzle velocity. The gun could also have enhance aim enchanted onto it, making it more devastating than a smartlink. So, you can improve thier normal functionality. You just aren't using your imagination. wink.gif

So, not only can they be a focus, they can be enchanted to far greater functionality than they would have had by themselves. And it would be canon according to the rules.
Lilt
Enchanting a pocsec to have more memory would be extremely difficult, but probably not impossible. The question is what sort of benefit could you give it? You could enchant it, making it a sustaining focus for a particular spell, but the spell itself is a stickler.

OK. It would probably be a Physical Transformation Manipulation spell with a drain of +2(M). This is like a physical increace attribute spell, shifted over to Transformation Manipulation as I'm not sure how accepted casting a health spell on an inanimate object woul dbe. The spell beneficially affects the MP attribute of the target. Using the health spell chart (MitS,p50) as a basis that gives a TN of the MP rating. Obviously that would be completely impractical, but increase Intelligence is not based on the number of braincells you have, and increase strength is not based on the mass of your muscles so I think it would be OK to divide it bu some number. I'd leave what that number would be up-to GMs depending on how easy they want to make it to add MPs to a system using it. I also think that a Computer skill roll would be required to do it all properly. OR may also be a better choice for TN asit should be high (8-10) whilst not impossible to reach.
Reaver
QUOTE (Lilt)
Enchanting a pocsec to have more memory would be extremely difficult, but probably not impossible. The question is what sort of benefit could you give it? You could enchant it, making it a sustaining focus for a particular spell, but the spell itself is a stickler.

OK. It would probably be a Physical Transformation Manipulation spell with a drain of +2(M). This is like a physical increace attribute spell, shifted over to Transformation Manipulation as I'm not sure how accepted casting a health spell on an inanimate object woul dbe. The spell beneficially affects the MP attribute of the target. Using the health spell chart (MitS,p50) as a basis that gives a TN of the MP rating. Obviously that would be completely impractical, but increase Intelligence is not based on the number of braincells you have, and increase strength is not based on the mass of your muscles so I think it would be OK to divide it bu some number. I'd leave what that number would be up-to GMs depending on how easy they want to make it to add MPs to a system using it. I also think that a Computer skill roll would be required to do it all properly. OR may also be a better choice for TN asit should be high (8-10) whilst not impossible to reach.

I agree that it would have to be a manipulation spell, as you are effecting an inanimate object. A health spell would not make sense. I'd rule a TN of at least 10 if it were a P-Sec. Maybe an increase of 5MP per 2 successes on the casting?
simonw2000
What about enchanting components of a focus with different spells, like a pair of glasses for example? Enchanted screws, handles, frame and lenses when combined, could make a good spell lock. Better skip the lenses if you're going to wear them in the Astral!
Reaver
QUOTE (simonw2000)
What about enchanting components of a focus with different spells, like a pair of glasses for example? Enchanted screws, handles, frame and lenses when combined, could make a good spell lock. Better skip the lenses if you're going to wear them in the Astral!

For that matter, you could enchant the glasses to provide astral sight, x-ray vision, thermographic vison and/or low-light vision. Now that's a pair of shades. wink.gif
Reaver
QUOTE (Lilt)
Enchanting a pocsec to have more memory would be extremely difficult, but probably not impossible. The question is what sort of benefit could you give it? You could enchant it, making it a sustaining focus for a particular spell, but the spell itself is a stickler.

OK. It would probably be a Physical Transformation Manipulation spell with a drain of +2(M). This is like a physical increace attribute spell, shifted over to Transformation Manipulation as I'm not sure how accepted casting a health spell on an inanimate object woul dbe. The spell beneficially affects the MP attribute of the target. Using the health spell chart (MitS,p50) as a basis that gives a TN of the MP rating. Obviously that would be completely impractical, but increase Intelligence is not based on the number of braincells you have, and increase strength is not based on the mass of your muscles so I think it would be OK to divide it bu some number. I'd leave what that number would be up-to GMs depending on how easy they want to make it to add MPs to a system using it. I also think that a Computer skill roll would be required to do it all properly. OR may also be a better choice for TN asit should be high (8-10) whilst not impossible to reach.

Hey Lilt;

Thanks for the spell idea. I went ahead and wrote it up and added it to the list. Here's the break down if you'd like it. smile.gif

Enhance Memory

Enhance Memory is designed to increase the MP rating of a device. For as long as the spell is sustained, the device will be able to take advantage of the increased memory. If the spell is dropped or dispelled, data stored in that portion of memory is lost.
The memory increase is 5MP per force of the spell, plus 5MP for every two successes.

Type: Physical
Range: Touch
Target: Object Resistance
Duration: Sustained
Drain: +2 (M)
Category: Manipulation
Cost: Force x 100
Lilt
The reason I considered Health as a base as this is the category that does this sort of spell. There is actually nothing that says the targets of health spells must be living, in-fact the increase cybered attribute spells target cyberware directly (P49, MitS). I think it should be possible to create an increase cybered memory spell as a health spell. Although I agree that most other people would choose a transformation manipulation spell, it makes sense to use similar mechanics as they are balanced for the form of effect the spell is supposed to have.

This is also getting into the, probably munchkin, definately strange, area of "Increase Pilot Rating", "Increase MPCP Rating", and "Increase Masking Rating" spells.
Reaver
QUOTE (Lilt)
The reason I considered Health as a base as this is the category that does this sort of spell. There is actually nothing that says the targets of health spells must be living, in-fact the increase cybered attribute spells target cyberware directly (P49, MitS). I think it should be possible to create an increase cybered memory spell as a health spell. Although I agree that most other people would choose a transformation manipulation spell, it makes sense to use similar mechanics as they are balanced for the form of effect the spell is supposed to have.

This is also getting into the, probably munchkin, definately strange, area of "Increase Pilot Rating", "Increase MPCP Rating", and "Increase Masking Rating" spells.

A health spell would make sense if you were increasing headware memory. My take on health spells was that they had to effect a living being to some sense. Since implanted cyberware is paid for with essence, that makes it "part" of a living being and therefore affected by health spells.

Increasing the memory on a purely inanimate object I would think falls into manipulaton category.

As for increasing other things with spells, nothing in the rules states that you can't do it. What can't be done with sorcery is quite clear cut... everything else is fair game. The GM has the final say though. wink.gif
Moonstone Spider
QUOTE (Lilt)
The reason I considered Health as a base as this is the category that does this sort of spell. There is actually nothing that says the targets of health spells must be living, in-fact the increase cybered attribute spells target cyberware directly (P49, MitS). I think it should be possible to create an increase cybered memory spell as a health spell. Although I agree that most other people would choose a transformation manipulation spell, it makes sense to use similar mechanics as they are balanced for the form of effect the spell is supposed to have.

This is also getting into the, probably munchkin, definately strange, area of "Increase Pilot Rating", "Increase MPCP Rating", and "Increase Masking Rating" spells.

That would definetly make the rigger/shaman and deckermage more desirable.
JAG
Where do you stand on Orichalum (sp?) implants then, my characters just discovered hes got some
Digital Heroin
QUOTE (PuyallupSquatter)
If you can have NASCAR adepts, then trailer park shamans arent too far behind. I wonder what the lodge rating of a double wide is? Is Bud Lite a valid totem?

Oh... dear lord.... I have crazy fiction ideas rolling in my head now...
Lilt
Yes, and it depends primarily on what the GM's kind enough to allow. He might give you 1milli-pulse (rather than mega-pulse) of storage per success, maybe even 1 bit. I will agree that as normal memory costs do not increase exponentially then the spell difficulty to cast an increase memory spell should not, but something like an increase Pilot or MPCP rating would and the high OR would need to factor somehow. As there is no presidence for either (and, quite frankly, unless there is some crippling factor the spells would be too powerful) I'd siggest a TN of OR+Attribute and give it the same stats otherwise as an increase cybered attribute spell. This means that you could possibly turn your home telecom system into a working deck, or enhance the pilot of a basic drone, but for bonuses to a top of the range cyberdeck or steel-lynx you'd need to be slinging some major mojo.
Reaver
QUOTE (JAG)
Where do you stand on Orichalum (sp?) implants then, my characters just discovered hes got some

While you could potentially have Orichalcum in an implant... what good would it do? It's just a metal in its natural state. Now, if the implant was enchanted somehow, that's a different story, but that means it has to be put together before implantation. While that is doable for some implants, others are better off nanolathed in the body to avoid additional surgical stress (such as bone lacing).

I'd potentially make a ruling that cyber with Orichalcum in it can't be at least betaware or better. After all, no one "normally" makes ware out of such metal as it would be cost prohibitive.
JAG
QUOTE (Reaver)
While you could potentially have Orichalcum in an implant... what good would it do? It's just a metal in its natural state. Now, if the implant was enchanted somehow, that's a different story, but that means it has to be put together before implantation.

Not entirely sure sure what the purpose is, the implant is still active in some respect as there is a very faint astral signature on it (something you'd really need to try and see)

GM plot device is what it is nyahnyah.gif
Reaver
QUOTE (JAG)
QUOTE (Reaver @ Feb 2 2004, 07:14 AM)
While you could potentially have Orichalcum in an implant... what good would it do?  It's just a metal in its natural state.  Now, if the implant was enchanted somehow, that's a different story, but that means it has to be put together before implantation.

Not entirely sure sure what the purpose is, the implant is still active in some respect as there is a very faint astral signature on it (something you'd really need to try and see)

GM plot device is what it is nyahnyah.gif

Ah. A GM plot device. That means you're screwed. wink.gif
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