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> Diesel Engines in SR, Why no diesel cars?
sable twilight
post Jan 30 2004, 06:24 PM
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Is it just me, or does anyone else think it is odd that you cannot get a diesel engine for anything smaller then a van or limousine. In RL we have diesel engines for all manner of cars. You can even get conversion kits to run them off vegetable oil (Biodiesel - you can even use used oil, which means the leftovers from fast food deep fries can be used), but Shadowrun developers left them out.

Has anyone come up rules to use them in car designs? Anyone have an idea what their specs would be?
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Frag-o Delux
post Jan 30 2004, 06:37 PM
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I guess the revised Rigger 3 has taken out the diesel car?

But they never had a diesel motorcycle.
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Nikoli
post Jan 30 2004, 06:40 PM
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I think it is mainly because:
1: Bio diesel isn't commonly known/used in our day and age. Some hear about it, know it's cheaper and still never use it. Keep in mind, production is horrendously low.
2: With low production now, think about the future, when the materials used to make bio-diesel are used even less, thus further reducing production. (Who in their right mind wants to eat a deep-fried soy-anything?)
3: That leaves run of the mill diesel for cars. The SR world has some serious emmissions laws and since a diesel engine running normal siesel is a masive polluter in comparison, they may have simply outlawed the manufacture and possibly the driving of small end diesel cars.

Diesel engines are only used for large vehicles because of the inherent needs of freight and the properties of a diesel engine. These are covered very well in the description of the diesel powerplant in the Rigger 3 and since I don't have my copy handy at the moment, I'll leave it to you to read up on the subject.

Basically, diesel trucks only exist because they are a (for now) necessary evil, with generally heavy regulations when crossing international borders.

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Reaver
post Jan 30 2004, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
I guess the revised Rigger 3 has taken out the diesel car?

But they never had a diesel motorcycle.

WHAT! Someone took out Diesel? Damn. He had the best quote this board has ever seen. ;)
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sable twilight
post Jan 30 2004, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Nikoli)
I think it is mainly because:
1: Bio diesel isn't commonly known/used in our day and age. Some hear about it, know it's cheaper and still never use it. Keep in mind, production is horrendously low.
2: With low production now, think about the future, when the materials used to make bio-diesel are used even less, thus further reducing production. (Who in their right mind wants to eat a deep-fried soy-anything?)
3: That leaves run of the mill diesel for cars. The SR world has some serious emmissions laws and since a diesel engine running normal siesel is a masive polluter in comparison, they may have simply outlawed the manufacture and possibly the driving of small end diesel cars.

Diesel engines are only used for large vehicles because of the inherent needs of freight and the properties of a diesel engine. These are covered very well in the description of the diesel powerplant in the Rigger 3 and since I don't have my copy handy at the moment, I'll leave it to you to read up on the subject.

Basically, diesel trucks only exist because they are a (for now) necessary evil, with generally heavy regulations when crossing international borders.

1) The use of Biodiesel is on the rise, and I believe most military vehicles that are diesel are also designed to run on Biodiesel as well. It the conversion is pretty straight forward and you can even run a non-converted diesel engine on vegetable oil, it will just wear out your engine.

2a) Production is still pretty steady for diesel cares and they are not difficult to find.
2b) Fried Tofu for one. But in reality it would be the soy oil used in frying, which is already in common usage.
2c) I am not even looking for a list mainstream produced diesel cars (though I personally believe that they would be in common usage in regions, such as the NAN). I am looking for rules for characters to produce their own diesel engines.

3) That diesel engines pollute more is a common misnomer. Because they burn at a higher temperature they actually have less pollutants then other types of internal combustion engines. Their emissions are more visible and quickly fall to earth as well, instead of floating around into the upper atmosphere. There are even some Greenie types out there promoting the use of diesel and biodiesel.

Basically, what it boils down to is that the rules and comments about diesel in the Rigger 3 book are another example of the developers writing stuff they are completely clueless about. Just because they did not even bother with doing the most rudimentary research on the subject does not mean I have to accept their ignorance on the subject as fact.
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Nikoli
post Jan 30 2004, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE
1) The use of Biodiesel is on the rise, and I believe most military vehicles that are diesel are also designed to run on Biodiesel as well. It the conversion is pretty straight forward and you can even run a non-converted diesel engine on vegetable oil, it will just wear out your engine.

2a) Production is still pretty steady for diesel cares and they are not difficult to find.
2b) Fried Tofu for one. But in reality it would be the soy oil used in frying, which is already in common usage.
2c) I am not even looking for a list mainstream produced diesel cars (though I personally believe that they would be in common usage in regions, such as the NAN). I am looking for rules for characters to produce their own diesel engines.

3) That diesel engines pollute more is a common misnomer. Because they burn at a higher temperature they actually have less pollutants then other types of internal combustion engines. Their emissions are more visible and quickly fall to earth as well, instead of floating around into the upper atmosphere. There are even some Greenie types out there promoting the use of diesel and biodiesel.

Basically, what it boils down to is that the rules and comments about diesel in the Rigger 3 book are another example of the developers writing stuff they are completely clueless about. Just because they did not even bother with doing the most rudimentary research on the subject does not mean I have to accept their ignorance on the subject as fact.

Actually, Diesel has a lower flashpoint than gasoline. If it burned higher than gasoline, the engine would possibly melt.
Also, the NAN doesn't like letting Gas engines or diesel into their turf and heavily regulate the roads through their territory, much like California does today.
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RedmondLarry
post Jan 30 2004, 09:18 PM
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I think I read somewhere that Diesel is the preferred fuel in the NAN, as it is more environmentally friendly. The long-haul truck routes that do pass through NAN will all be Diesel. Also, as a rule, NAN residents keep their vehicles longer, resulting in slower accumulation in auto graveyards.

Rigger 3 indicates that most "gas" vehicles burn Diesel fuel:
QUOTE (Rigger 3 p. 7)
Gas (or more properly various varieties of diesel) powered vehicles are still common enough to annoy hard-core environmentalists but are typically relegated to cargo trucks and high-performance sports cars. Even the most environmentally unsound vehicle of 2061 is still far more fuel efficient, with cleaner emissions, than almost any vehicle produced in the late twentieth century.
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sable twilight
post Jan 30 2004, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Nikoli)
QUOTE
1) The use of Biodiesel is on the rise, and I believe most military vehicles that are diesel are also designed to run on Biodiesel as well. It the conversion is pretty straight forward and you can even run a non-converted diesel engine on vegetable oil, it will just wear out your engine.

2a) Production is still pretty steady for diesel cares and they are not difficult to find.
2b) Fried Tofu for one. But in reality it would be the soy oil used in frying, which is already in common usage.
2c) I am not even looking for a list mainstream produced diesel cars (though I personally believe that they would be in common usage in regions, such as the NAN). I am looking for rules for characters to produce their own diesel engines.

3) That diesel engines pollute more is a common misnomer. Because they burn at a higher temperature they actually have less pollutants then other types of internal combustion engines. Their emissions are more visible and quickly fall to earth as well, instead of floating around into the upper atmosphere. There are even some Greenie types out there promoting the use of diesel and biodiesel.

Basically, what it boils down to is that the rules and comments about diesel in the Rigger 3 book are another example of the developers writing stuff they are completely clueless about. Just because they did not even bother with doing the most rudimentary research on the subject does not mean I have to accept their ignorance on the subject as fact.

Actually, Diesel has a lower flashpoint than gasoline. If it burned higher than gasoline, the engine would possibly melt.
Also, the NAN doesn't like letting Gas engines or diesel into their turf and heavily regulate the roads through their territory, much like California does today.

You know, this is a prime example of something that makes me angry about some of the things I find in Shadowrun; the writers and editors, too lazy to actually do any research on a topic, pawn off some drek, and the players reading their material take it as fact. And laziness is the only thing I can attribute it to. I found this article How Diesel Engines Work as the second entry on google searching "diesel engine". The writers and editors better be thankful they are working for a company that is not as concerned about the accuracy of their work, because if they were working for a company like Steve Jackson Games I would bet they would be out of a job.

Diesel has a higher flash point (>+45c) then gasoline (<+45c). And since diesel engines do not use a spark to ignite, but pressure, they operate at a much higher pressure (gasoline compresses at a ratio 8:1 to 12:1 while diesel compresses anywhere from 14:1 to 25:1) and temperature (the autoignition temperature of diesel is 210c. I found this off Flash point - Wikipedia by searching google for "gasoline flashpoint".

In addition, since diesel require less refining and higher energy density (which, when combined with improved efficiency of diesel, gives diesel engines better mileage) the NAN would be far more likely to let a diesel engine in then a gasoline one.

Simply put, the writers not only dropped the ball on this, but included a lot of fallacious information.

Anyway, this is beside the point. The point of my post was, have any players out there (who actually know better) tried coming up stats for diesel engines?
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Frag-o Delux
post Jan 30 2004, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Reaver)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jan 30 2004, 06:37 PM)
I guess the revised Rigger 3 has taken out the diesel car?

But they never had a diesel motorcycle.

WHAT! Someone took out Diesel? Damn. He had the best quote this board has ever seen. ;)

What does that even mean?
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sable twilight
post Jan 30 2004, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE (OurTeam)
I think I read somewhere that Diesel is the preferred fuel in the NAN, as it is more environmentally friendly. The long-haul truck routes that do pass through NAN will all be Diesel. Also, as a rule, NAN residents keep their vehicles longer, resulting in slower accumulation in auto graveyards.

Rigger 3 indicates that most "gas" vehicles burn Diesel fuel:
QUOTE (Rigger 3 p. 7)
Gas (or more properly various varieties of diesel) powered vehicles are still common enough to annoy hard-core environmentalists but are typically relegated to cargo trucks and high-performance sports cars. Even the most environmentally unsound vehicle of 2061 is still far more fuel efficient, with cleaner emissions, than almost any vehicle produced in the late twentieth century.

First, you cannot pour diesel into a gasoline engine. Nor can you pour gasoline into a diesel engine. You will mess up the engine. The engines are not designed with those fuels.

Second, if the internal combustion engines are supposed to all be diesel anyway, then how come the separate stats for Gasoline and Diesel engines? (never mind the inaccuracy in efficiency ratings, with gasoline having a higher efficiency when it should be diesel)
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RedmondLarry
post Jan 30 2004, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
QUOTE (Reaver)
WHAT! Someone took out Diesel? Damn. He had the best quote this board has ever seen. ;)
What does that even mean?
He's talking about this Diesel.
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DV8
post Jan 30 2004, 10:02 PM
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I'm really not up to speed on vehicle and rigging rules, but aren't most cars powered by the Grid? Commuter cars, at least.
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sable twilight
post Jan 30 2004, 10:15 PM
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Only some. Considering the limitations of grid power, it's not very useful for anyone that may need to go off road, places that have no gird, at speeds that exceed the speed limit, or evade law enforcement (who could just shut down the road powergrid if need be).

Most cars are gasoline, some are electric battery or electric fuel cell, and opne listed as methane.
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RedmondLarry
post Jan 30 2004, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (DV8 @ Jan 30 2004, 02:02 PM)
I'm really not up to speed on vehicle and rigging rules, but aren't most cars powered by the Grid? Commuter cars, at least.

Yes, you're absolutely right. Most vehicles in the Seattle Metroplex are grid-powered. In the NAN, over long distances without grid power, everything has to be electric battery, hydrogen fuel cell, methane, or fossil fuel (natural gas, gasoline, diesel). I think most people who talk about a fossil fuel car will refer to it as a "gas" vehicle, for historical reasons, regardless of what type of fossil fuel it burns.

Shadowrunners often want to have excess power (not available on the grid or in electric-battery vehicles) or off-road capability, or the ability to go long distances in the NAN. Their requirements and thinking is markedly different from most citizens of the Seattle Metroplex.
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Rev
post Jan 30 2004, 10:23 PM
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I beleive the grid-guide powered cars also have batteries so they can operate for some limited time off the grid (possibly at reduced speed as well).

It is unlikely to make sense to grid wire every alley and parking lot.
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Diesel
post Jan 30 2004, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (Reaver)
WHAT!  Someone took out Diesel?  Damn.  He had the best quote this board has ever seen.  ;)


Yeah I miss him too. But seriously folks, can't we invent a new word for diesel fuel, like "Shi-noozle" or something equally retarded? Yeah, thanks. :D
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DV8
post Jan 31 2004, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE (OurTeam)
Shadowrunners often want to have excess power (not available on the grid or in electric-battery vehicles) or off-road capability, or the ability to go long distances in the NAN. Their requirements and thinking is markedly different from most citizens of the Seattle Metroplex.

Not to mention the fact that Lone Star can shut down parts of the grid, effectively putting you to a direct stop. Much like throwing up a chain of caltrops and blowing the tires. At least, that's always how I envisioned things, but I'm hardly an expert in the field. :)
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Cray74
post Jan 31 2004, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (sable twilight)

You know, this is a prime example of something that makes me angry about some of the things I find in Shadowrun; the writers and editors, too lazy to actually do any research on a topic, pawn off some drek, and the players reading their material take it as fact.  And laziness is the only thing I can attribute it to.  I found this article How Diesel Engines Work as the second entry on google searching "diesel engine".  The writers and editors better be thankful they are working for a company that is not as concerned about the accuracy of their work, because if they were working for a company like Steve Jackson Games I would bet they would be out of a job.

I can't comment on Shadowrun, but I know the Battletech side of FanPro has several engineers reviewing and playtesting forthcoming works (myself included).

OTOH, even when solid science or engineering dictate one thing, a combination of requirements specific to game supplement, the canon game setting, and playability may demand some others. (Realism vs Battletech: oi!) And, of course, the reviewers can just overlook something.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 31 2004, 03:00 PM
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i think the gas vs diesel entrys in rigger 3 are based on the fact that gasonline engines are known for high performance but low pulling power (or whatever its called) while diesel are used in workhorse vehicles that need to be able to pull heavly loads in a controlled fashion.

its more a trowback to old areas of use rather then a indication on fuel. if your vehicle have a diesel engine in it then you can be sure that it can take a good load while a gas based vehicle are tuned for speed over load handeling.
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Tziluthi
post Jan 31 2004, 03:01 PM
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Talking about vehicles, does anyone find it strange that most of the canon sedans (sedan n. four door passenger car seating four to six people) lack more than two doors? I can just imagine Lone Star officers having to pull their chair forward to let the perp into the back.
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Dax
post Jan 31 2004, 10:35 PM
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I HATE Disel engines. When I'm not at school, or DMing Shadowrun, I work at Wendy's to keep myself in gas money. And nothing is worse then working the drive through line when someone with a Disel truck comes rolling into the line. The sound of that engine roaring over the speakers is about enough to blow my ears out.
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John Campbell
post Jan 31 2004, 11:44 PM
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I've run into the no diesel cars problem myself. I was trying to design a Shadowrun equivalent of the best car ever, the '82 Chevy Malibu (wagon), including the sedan, station wagon, and pickup (El Camino) variants, and wanted to have a diesel option for the wagon and pickup models, like the real-world Malibu wagon and El Camino had. But.. no diesel cars. I ended up making them fuel cell powered instead, which accomplished pretty much the same thing, capabilities-wise.

And I don't think there are any vehicles that are actually directly grid-powered. They're all battery-powered, and just use the grid power to keep the battery charged up. If the grid power gets cut off, they'll still have a fair range before the battery runs down. I suspect that most of the traffic grids are poorly enough maintained to make that ability necessary, so you can make the hop across sections that have been vandalized and are no longer supplying power properly. Lone Star can shut down a vehicle using the grid, but that's because it's got control functions as well, and can tell the vehicle's autonav to turn the car off, not because it's supplying the motive power. That capability's not restricted to electric cars, either.
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Cray74
post Feb 1 2004, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE (sable twilight)
First, you cannot pour diesel into a gasoline engine. Nor can you pour gasoline into a diesel engine. You will mess up the engine. The engines are not designed with those fuels.


Just to be pedantic, turbines can usually burn quite a range of fuels - gasoline, diesel, kerosene, and others. Other combustion engines like Stirling cycle engines are pretty fuel tolerant, too - whatever you can push through the burners.
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danbot37
post Feb 1 2004, 05:56 AM
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A little off topic, but hey Frag-o, actually kawasaki offers a diesel version of their dual sport motorcycle klr-650 in a diesel motor, mostly used by militaries. NOt publicly available mind you, but its out there.
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DV8
post Feb 1 2004, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (John Campbell)
And I don't think there are any vehicles that are actually directly grid-powered. They're all battery-powered, and just use the grid power to keep the battery charged up. If the grid power gets cut off, they'll still have a fair range before the battery runs down. I suspect that most of the traffic grids are poorly enough maintained to make that ability necessary, so you can make the hop across sections that have been vandalized and are no longer supplying power properly. Lone Star can shut down a vehicle using the grid, but that's because it's got control functions as well, and can tell the vehicle's autonav to turn the car off, not because it's supplying the motive power. That capability's not restricted to electric cars, either.

That makes a lot of sense. :)
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