WHAT! Someone took out Diesel? Damn. He had the best quote this board has ever seen.

1) The use of Biodiesel is on the rise, and I believe most military vehicles that are diesel are also designed to run on Biodiesel as well. It the conversion is pretty straight forward and you can even run a non-converted diesel engine on vegetable oil, it will just wear out your engine.

2a) Production is still pretty steady for diesel cares and they are not difficult to find.
2b) Fried Tofu for one. But in reality it would be the soy oil used in frying, which is already in common usage.
2c) I am not even looking for a list mainstream produced diesel cars (though I personally believe that they would be in common usage in regions, such as the NAN). I am looking for rules for characters to produce their own diesel engines.

3) That diesel engines pollute more is a common misnomer. Because they burn at a higher temperature they actually have less pollutants then other types of internal combustion engines. Their emissions are more visible and quickly fall to earth as well, instead of floating around into the upper atmosphere. There are even some Greenie types out there promoting the use of diesel and biodiesel.

Basically, what it boils down to is that the rules and comments about diesel in the Rigger 3 book are another example of the developers writing stuff they are completely clueless about. Just because they did not even bother with doing the most rudimentary research on the subject does not mean I have to accept their ignorance on the subject as fact.

Actually, Diesel has a lower flashpoint than gasoline. If it burned higher than gasoline, the engine would possibly melt.
Also, the NAN doesn't like letting Gas engines or diesel into their turf and heavily regulate the roads through their territory, much like California does today.

You know, this is a prime example of something that makes me angry about some of the things I find in Shadowrun; the writers and editors, too lazy to actually do any research on a topic, pawn off some drek, and the players reading their material take it as fact. And laziness is the only thing I can attribute it to. I found this article How Diesel Engines Work as the second entry on google searching "diesel engine". The writers and editors better be thankful they are working for a company that is not as concerned about the accuracy of their work, because if they were working for a company like Steve Jackson Games I would bet they would be out of a job.

Diesel has a higher flash point (>+45c) then gasoline (<+45c). And since diesel engines do not use a spark to ignite, but pressure, they operate at a much higher pressure (gasoline compresses at a ratio 8:1 to 12:1 while diesel compresses anywhere from 14:1 to 25:1) and temperature (the autoignition temperature of diesel is 210c. I found this off Flash point - Wikipedia by searching google for "gasoline flashpoint".

In addition, since diesel require less refining and higher energy density (which, when combined with improved efficiency of diesel, gives diesel engines better mileage) the NAN would be far more likely to let a diesel engine in then a gasoline one.

Simply put, the writers not only dropped the ball on this, but included a lot of fallacious information.

Anyway, this is beside the point. The point of my post was, have any players out there (who actually know better) tried coming up stats for diesel engines?

What does that even mean?

First, you cannot pour diesel into a gasoline engine. Nor can you pour gasoline into a diesel engine. You will mess up the engine. The engines are not designed with those fuels.

Second, if the internal combustion engines are supposed to all be diesel anyway, then how come the separate stats for Gasoline and Diesel engines? (never mind the inaccuracy in efficiency ratings, with gasoline having a higher efficiency when it should be diesel)

He's talking about this Diesel.

Yes, you're absolutely right. Most vehicles in the Seattle Metroplex are grid-powered. In the NAN, over long distances without grid power, everything has to be electric battery, hydrogen fuel cell, methane, or fossil fuel (natural gas, gasoline, diesel). I think most people who talk about a fossil fuel car will refer to it as a "gas" vehicle, for historical reasons, regardless of what type of fossil fuel it burns.

Shadowrunners often want to have excess power (not available on the grid or in electric-battery vehicles) or off-road capability, or the ability to go long distances in the NAN. Their requirements and thinking is markedly different from most citizens of the Seattle Metroplex.

Yeah I miss him too. But seriously folks, can't we invent a new word for diesel fuel, like "Shi-noozle" or something equally retarded? Yeah, thanks.

Not to mention the fact that Lone Star can shut down parts of the grid, effectively putting you to a direct stop. Much like throwing up a chain of caltrops and blowing the tires. At least, that's always how I envisioned things, but I'm hardly an expert in the field.

I can't comment on Shadowrun, but I know the Battletech side of FanPro has several engineers reviewing and playtesting forthcoming works (myself included).

OTOH, even when solid science or engineering dictate one thing, a combination of requirements specific to game supplement, the canon game setting, and playability may demand some others. (Realism vs Battletech: oi!) And, of course, the reviewers can just overlook something.

Just to be pedantic, turbines can usually burn quite a range of fuels - gasoline, diesel, kerosene, and others. Other combustion engines like Stirling cycle engines are pretty fuel tolerant, too - whatever you can push through the burners.

That makes a lot of sense.

::sigh::

Yes, you would have found that bit of wildly inaccurate information on page 110 of the Rigger 3 Revised book.

Since it is obvious that you did not bother to read either the articles I linked to, here is why it is a load of drek and an obvious example of both a poor writer (one how did not research the topic properly) and even worse editing (who should have caught the mistake).

1) First you have to understand flashpoint and auto ignite point. Flashpoint is the temperature something needs to be at in order for an outside heat source, such as a spark or flame, to ignite it. The auto ignite point is the temperature something has to be for it to ignite by itself, without the aid of an outside heat source. Since it tends to be easier to light something on fire then for it to spontaneously combust, it is logical to assume the auto ignite temperature for most object will be higher the their flashpoint.

2) Diesel does not use a spark to ignite, therefore the flash point of diesel is irrelevant, and since diesel does not use an ignition source, that means it must have to auto ignite. This means a much higher temperature is needed. This temperature is achieved through increasing the pressure the fuel is exposed to (for those that have not been given even the most basic of a physics education, increasing the pressure on something also increases the temperature).

3) Even if we were talking about igniting diesel and gasoline, the flashpoint for either of those is about 45c. Since we can boil water (100c) in iron and aluminum pot and not worry about them melting (aluminum has a melting point of 933.49c, iron 1538c), this really is not an issue.

4) What diesel does have and what it needs is a lower auto ignite point (210c) then gasoline, but even gasoline's auto ignite point of 246c, while more then enough to give you a sever burn, is still well within the temperature tolerances of iron and aluminum. You could make a diesel style engine that can run off gasoline, but considering diesel has more power and burns cleaner to begin with, why would you bother?

Now, for those still insisting that you can put gasoline in a diesel engine or diesel in a gasoline engine, and who are still apparently lost about the gasoline/diesel flashpoint/auto ignite requirement, I suggest you do a little experiment. Go fill up your vehicle with the appropriate inappropriate fuel (i.e. diesel for your gasoline car or gasoline for your diesel one) and report back to us the results. Just be prepared for you laughter you will receive from your mechanic when you end up having to tell him or her why you are having to bring your car into the shop.

Something else. In Brainscan, the Rolls-Royce Phaeton is listed as having a diesel engine. Does anyone have thier Rigger 3 handy to see if it is that way in the Rigger book? Sherman Huang might just have a custom limo.

I have Rigger 3 Revised handy (I am working on a rant about turrent avaliblity), and the Rolls-Royce Phaeton is listed as diesel.

And call everything Internal Combustion? Ick. I thought we were getting away from that. And if you do that, then you might as well lump Electric Battery and Electric Fuel Cell together too.

The Phaeton uses a Limo chassis, and Rigger 3 has diesel engines listed for Limos, RVs, SUVs, and Vans, among other "Car"-type chassis. So that's perfectly valid by the design rules... but you still can't put a diesel into a Sedan or Sports Car chassis.

(Sports Car is actually listed on the Diesel table, but the errata says that entry should be under Jet Turbines.)