Summoning spirits, Any "fix" that is not rp related ? Options

[darune]

Dear all

Im considering a number of ways to make spirit summoning more unpredictable, but i want to hear your thoughts on it first before introducing it. Also want to hear if anyone has any other suggestions. However i would like to keep this strictly within the rulechanges, although i do not critisize or doubt that introducing (more) spirit RP and the like can be effective in balancing some things out, I would like to keep this out of the discussion. Alhtough i think ill be using the spirit aspect with concealment (eg. air element will conceal with a cloud of air for instance).

So ill start with the simplest "fix" ive come up with yet:

Increase the drain from x2 to x3

[Thanee]

That would be quite harsh for Binding, though.

I generally like to restrict magic when it goes beyond the Magic Rating (i.e. Overcasting).

Higher Drain (only for spells; summoning Drain is quite alright, IMHO, it's always a risk thanks to the randomness involved, once you get to decent Force Ratings; i.e. 5+), and when suffering physical Drain (Force higher than Magic), you also suffer the same amount in Stun as well (roll twice against the same DV, once for physical and once for stun).

Bye
Thanee

[darune]

I haven't considered binding yet.

[Thanee]

You should, though. Those two go hand-in-hand.

Bye
Thanee

[Semerkhet]

A suggestion was made in another topic that all spirits of >= Force 5 use Edge to resist summoning. I think I would prefer this solution over a blanket increase in the drain multiplier.

[pbangarth]

I've found in practice that the belief people have that Summoning and Binding Drain can be handled easily doesn't pan out. If a character consistently pushes his Conjuring to the limit, sooner or later he will pay, even to the point of killing himself with the Drain. No matter how many times you succeed, all it takes is once to end the fun.

Raising Drain for Conjuring attempts from X2 to X3 would destroy the Skills' usefulness.

[Ravor]

Aye, personally I'd just figure that it isn't really all that easy to force Mana into a thinking, sentient being so all Spirits use their Edge to resist summoning, not because they exist before being summoned, but because it's really fragging hard to create them on the spot.

[Thanee]

If they all use Edge to resist, you just raised Drain to x4 effectively, BTW. That's even more than his x3. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Ravor]

Not really, at best its twice the normal drain, not a big deal as long as you aren't summoning "monster" spirits.

*EDIT*

Remember extra dice doesn't translate to extra sucess so it isn't as bad as a straight modifer.

[darune]

Do spirits even have edge ? If they do i would definately consider that most/all spirits will use their edge to reroll.

*EDIT*
Ok, they have EDGE equal to FORCE.

[Ravor]

Yes, equal to their ( Force ), I hadn't thought about rerolling, merely adding the extra dice.

[darune]

Even reroll is not like doubling the hits however it comes close. A bad initial roll will be mitigated. A good initial roll will not have as many dice to reroll. However it effectively increases average total hits to 5/9 of dice pool instead of 1/3. So yes, on average that is close to double.

[Semerkhet]

I have my team statistician working on a probability table with Edge factored in. My instincts tell me that the multiplier change will be more important at lower forces and the Edge would be more decisive at higher forces.

Edit: Apparently integrating infinitely recursive re-rolling of sixes into his Excel probability table is non-trivial. Has anyone already done this in Excel?

[Apathy]

Is the issue that you want summoning to be more unpredictable (which will have the effect of encouraging people to summon lower level spirits or take injuries more often), or that you feel summoning is overpowered? If you think summoning's overpowered you could always just make spirits less powerful in some way while keeping the drain rules the same.

[pbangarth]

Yes, Apathy has a point there. darune, why do you say you want Summoning to be more unpredictable? What do you mean by that? What purpose will it serve? Answering these questions might help us focus on what you are looking for.

[Thanee]

Not really, at best its twice the normal drain, ...

Yeah, I figured that would be misunderstood, heh. My bad, really.

I meant x4 in the way that the original poster used x2 and x3. Like double the dice at x2 is the same as standard number of dice x4, hence the x4.

Of course that's just twice as much, but since the base is x2... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Remember extra dice doesn't translate to extra sucess so it isn't as bad as a straight modifer.

Uh, no. This is completely wrong. Every extra dice is 1/3 extra hit (on average).

And changing the x2 per hit to x3 is also depending on rolling 5's, so no 'straight modifier', just less variance. The average will be about the same, if you use Edge as extra dice (bit higher, that, thanks to rerolling 6's) or change the x2 to x4 instead. And that's the important number. With a higher multiplier, you will just get a more stable (as in more predictable) result, that is closer to the average usually and does not spread as wide around it.

Bye
Thanee

[Ravor]

Aye, I realized what you were talking about shortly after posting when my brainfart has passed. Still I'd like the larger spread as opposed to a straight mod, seems like it hurts less.

[Thanee]

Agreed. More variance is good in that case.

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A suggestion was made in another topic that all spirits of >= Force 5 use Edge to resist summoning. I think I would prefer this solution over a blanket increase in the drain multiplier.

We use Force 4+ for using Edge, Added to the Pool (6's Explode), not rerolling Failures...

Keep the Faith

[Apathy]

I'm inclined to say Spirits only use edge to resist summoning in cases of Spirit Bane, or on a summoning glitch. Similarly, I wouldn't have the spirit using edge in the player's favor either (when using powers and such, or even resisting damage) except with Spirit Bonus (forgot the naming convention... mean the opposite of Bane) or a critical summoning success.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm inclined to say Spirits only use edge to resist summoning in cases of Spirit Bane, or on a summoning glitch. Similarly, I wouldn't have the spirit using edge in the player's favor either (when using powers and such, or even resisting damage) except with Spirit Bonus (forgot the naming convention... mean the opposite of Bane) or a critical summoning success.

Whatever works to control the issue in your game...

Keep the Faith

[TheOOB]

Spirits are allready pretty random, I was nearly taken out of commission last time I summoned a force 5 spirit and they got 4 successes, 8 drain is a lot for a medium power spirit, especially when your drain resistance dice hate you.

[darune]

My biggest concern is that you can summon a force 3 spirit and choose whatever power you want from the list (including the power that emulates a spell, if memory serves)

That is like a swish army knife (dont you think ?) and seriously the drain risk is very low for force 3 (assuming the spirit is not using edge)

[Thanee]

The spirit can only use spells that you know yourself, though, if memory serves.

F3 spirits are really not a big deal. F10+ spirits, however...

Bye
Thanee

[darune]

Ok, that makes sense.

However the mage could, for one example, utilize a F3 spirit to maintain a spell. That is effectively close to a free sustaining focus, (no ? prove me wrong please). Although there are more expensive foci, sustaining focus is far from free if you consider the karma/BP and monetary costs.